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Guide - Sub-Zero SUB-ZERO COMBO THREAD (Patch 8/31)

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
With another strong variation, we'd be asking for nerfs. We might want to pull back the throttle a little bit lol
 

Tokiwartoothxdk

『T R I G G E R E D』
I actually want to thank you for bringing this to my attention, it has highlighted a fact that Sub-Zero's damage scaling is far too severe in this game. You do realize that if I do the B12 EX Burst raw without the b12 aura (assuming its already active) that the same combo does 39%?
io knew with aura, b12, ice burst did 39%, but not without
 

STB Damashi

SmallBurntEarths
I don't play GM Sub Zero, but I was in the lab, and after you do the unblockable throw set up, can't you get more damage with 242, NJP, Jump Back Kick, F12?
 
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Samsara

Resident Cynic
With another strong variation, we'd be asking for nerfs. We might want to pull back the throttle a little bit lol
I suppose, but based on my calculations, a raw ice aura activation performed after an opponent is frozen results in the final damage being roughly 10% less than it would be if you hadn't deployed aura at all (28% magically turns into 25%). I'm the only one who finds it odd that performing a B12xxEXIAC before a standard B2 B2 242 123xxslide only results in an increase of 2% damage over the meterless alternative? 40% one bar corner damage is fine enough, but come on man, what's it worth to play Unbreakable midscreen without rolling your eyes? For christ sakes GM has 35-37% combos at midscreen for the meter and its totally worth it. And it has better defensive tools to boot. What's more, is that your aura disappears after your 31% combo is finished anyway, and if I change my conversions to emphasize duration I lose about 2% damage and have to deal with a more arduous conversion off of B2 rc.

WHERE IS THE VALUE?

We're spending meter for 2% damage increases.​
 

Samsara

Resident Cynic
io knew with aura, b12, ice burst did 39%, but not without
It does 35%. Which is less than the 36% meterless universal and less than the 37% meterless unbreakable setup off the same starter. Unbreakable gets little incentive to use his meter for damage, and since his defensive toold are already outclassed by GM it leaves little in the way of making a sound argument to play this version over the other two. I can't complain though, his corner damage will always be decent.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
I don't play GM Sub Zero, but in the lab after you do the unblockable throw set up, can't you get more damage with 212, NJP, Jump Back Kick, F12?
I think jip, b2, 242, f12 is the route. I'm not sure though, test it out.

I suppose, but based on my calculations, a raw ice aura activation performed after an opponent is frozen results in the final damage being roughly 10% less than it would be if you hadn't deployed aura at all (28% magically turns into 25%). I'm the only one who finds it odd that performing a B12xxEXIAC before a standard B2 B2 242 123xxslide only results in an increase of 2% damage over the meterless alternative? 40% one bar corner damage is fine enough, but come on man, what's it worth to play Unbreakable midscreen without rolling your eyes? For christ sakes GM has 35-37% combos at midscreen for the meter and its totally worth it. And it has better defensive tools to boot. What's more, is that your aura disappears after your 31% combo is finished anyway, and if I change my conversions to emphasize duration I lose about 2% damage and have to deal with a more arduous conversion off of B2 rc.

WHERE IS THE VALUE?

We're spending meter for 2% damage increases.​
In all seriousness, it is screwed up that UB has to pay meter for a glorified hit confirm. He's getting better, but he's not there yet.
 

STB Damashi

SmallBurntEarths
I think jip, b2, 242, f12 is the route. I'm not sure though, test it out.



In all seriousness, it is screwed up that UB has to pay meter for a glorified hit confirm. He's getting better, but he's not there yet.
Ah okay, I was just looking at the combos listed and thought that a Jump Back Kick would do more damage than a JIP in the combo 242, NJP, JIP, F12
 

Samsara

Resident Cynic
Ah okay, I was just looking at the combos listed and thought that a Jump Back Kick would do more damage than a JIP in the combo 242, NJP, JIP, F12
I'm busy with school now, but I update this thread every weekend. I'll take a second look at everything and update the OP accordingly.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Ah okay, I was just looking at the combos listed and thought that a Jump Back Kick would do more damage than a JIP in the combo 242, NJP, JIP, F12
I mean, you're not wrong. I think the rule of thumb for that set up is "the higher the opponent when hit with f12, the better." If you still net the throw break > freeze, and it does more damage? Good find.

For anyone interested, as soon as f12 hits, the splat animation begins irregardless of position(airborne/ grounded) moving the opponents reeling feet backward. More air time lets SZ recover from f12 and successfully clone immediately, whereas less air time forces him to wait a moment, causing failed clone attempts. Just a theory for future safe clone combos.
 
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Samsara

Resident Cynic
Is anyone opposed to me posting duration focused combos for Unbreakable? So far I've reserved them solely for his B2 starter. They do slightly less damage than the bnbs but you get about triple duration time.

B12xxDF2 FJP B2 RC B12xxEXDB3 123xxBF4

This setup grants 9 seconds as opposed to th 3 you'd get off the typical B12 aura route.
 
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ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
You can get a Ji2 after Throw into Clone? Never crossed my mind. I just run up and b2.

Speaking of... Why do I see so many doing 2,4,2 after Throw into Clone?

And in general, why end in NJK instead of f1,2? I see enough people do it to make me think there's a reason beyond ease.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
You can get a Ji2 after Throw into Clone? Never crossed my mind. I just run up and b2.

Speaking of... Why do I see so many doing 2,4,2 after Throw into Clone?

And in general, why end in NJK instead of f1,2? I see enough people do it to make me think there's a reason beyond ease.
Yeah I guess ji2 combos properly into b2, where ji1 doesn't. Odd interaction. Ji2 timing is more forgiving off the throw break trap.

242 seems like a comfortable route for a lot of people to set back up into clone. It's probably a bad habit.

Ending some combos in njk causes SZ to land at a good (better?) distance to start clone shatter combos. No one knows why Tom Brady still does it...
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
Ha. Yeah, I hear you. I'm just thinking shit off the top of my head while working. I should probably wait til I'm playing before posting.

Does NJK leave your Clone at distance where a b2 won't land in it?
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Sometime, we should discuss the 112 ender. In the corner, not great. But slightly outside? Very effective from a midscreen push instead of 123 xx slide.
 

zoofs

bless
Njk is all about consistent clone placement and hit advantage, as far as I know. By the way from my testing, ji2, b2, 242, b33d4 is probably the best option for a b2 off throw freeze. F12 can make the clone setup inconsistent against females and is stricter as well. I think the jump in after tech rolling is worth it and it's something I don't do enough but it is semi strict in comparison to run up b2/242. It's also pretty good to note you can do tech roll, ji2, b2, b12 X-ray for 41. Not bad for closing out a game imo.

About jump back kick, it does 1 more percent than a jip and leaves the clone placement more inconsistent (seems to even be height specific for the jbk
 
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Creepy00

Kombatant
I mean, you're not wrong. I think the rule of thumb for that set up is "the higher the opponent when hit with f12, the better." If you still net the throw break > freeze, and it does more damage? Good find.

For anyone interested, as soon as f12 hits, the splat animation begins irregardless of position(airborne/ grounded) moving the opponents reeling feet backward. More air time lets SZ recover from f12 and successfully clone immediately, whereas less air time forces him to wait a moment, causing failed clone attempts. Just a theory for future safe clone combos.
This is correct, the higher your opponent is when f12 connects that more plus frames you have to set up ice clone and do a b3 or b2 afterwards. Also the reason Tom does njk instead is because it grants more plus frame on hit, thus allowing better and more consistent ice clone setups
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
After an armor shred with d2, unscaled 14% + the ji2, b2, b12 xx X Ray 41%? Thats over half life and a bar of meter that an opponent could have used to break. All just for trying to wake up with armor on a safe clone.

The beautiful thing is d2 beats the jump, shreds most armor, and on block SZ is pushed well behind clone and the opponent /still/ has to spend a bar to punish. If they don't, you mix up or set you up another clone.

This character makes me laugh maniacally sometimes.
 

Creepy00

Kombatant
Wait, you mean d2 + armor shred leaves them standing as d4 armor shred? You ve been mention d2 + armor shed setup quite a bit, so I kinda curious to how it works.

Also raw b2,d1,b12 does ~43% IRRC.
 

Creepy00

Kombatant
Wait, you mean d2 + armor shred leaves them standing as d4 armor shred? You ve been mention d2 + armor shed setup quite a bit, so I kinda curious to how it works.

Also raw b2,d1,b12 does ~43% IRRC.
 

zoofs

bless
Wait, you mean d2 + armor shred leaves them standing as d4 armor shred? You ve been mention d2 + armor shed setup quite a bit, so I kinda curious to how it works.

Also raw b2,d1,b12 does ~43% IRRC.
b2 d1 b12 xray does 40%. The jip after the tech roll doesn't affect damage for the combo I listed earlier though so it's useless in that situation. Tech roll, b2, b12 xray is max damage I believe.
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
We were talking about NJK vs. f1,2 earlier... I dug into it for the first time earlier.

Ending some combos in njk causes SZ to land at a good (better?) distance to start clone shatter combos. No one knows why Tom Brady still does it...
I don't know about Shatter combos being a factor. Didn't mess with it too much, but the options don't seem to be there like with b3,3,d4. Seems more to do with the loop...

Also the reason Tom does njk instead is because it grants more plus frame on hit, thus allowing better and more consistent ice clone setups
I set the AI to jump and made Sub neutral jump after Clone setup for both NJK and f1,2. F1,2 with a slight delay into Clone seemed to have a lot more advantage than NJK. But a b2 follow-up will land the opponent in the Clone and fuck up the combo. You still have the low/throw option with a lot more advantage.

Doing f1,2 with heavier delay makes it so the b2 won't land the opponent in the Clone. So then you could loop off of b2/b33/throw, same as NJK. The heavier delay might make NJK more advantage, but it doesn't seem to be by much if at all. I mean, f1,2 with heavier delay can still setup Clone and neutral jump over Reptile's wake-up EH Slide. I'm thinking it comes down to b2 landing in Clone, and then NJK being easier than timing the heavier delay after f1,2 as the reason why guys go for it.

Thoughts? Am I off?