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Street Fighter V General Discussion

FL Rushdown

Champion
I really hope not. The number of characters that one could argue need serious toning down can be counted on one hand with fingers to spare. Going overboard in that direction results in a boring game were every character has all the offensive potential of wet newspaper. Do. Not. Want.
There are also a handful of characters that, while not overpowered, rely on poor design. Laura for example, she's not in my top 10 but I still want her reworked. Give and take, but make her a SF character not whatever she is now. I'm not saying make characters worse, just make them more honest and give them better tools to play smart instead of having half the cast just mash low forward into trigger as their win condition.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
There are also a handful of characters that, while not overpowered, rely on poor design. Laura for example, she's not in my top 10 but I still want her reworked. Give and take, but make her a SF character not whatever she is now. I'm not saying make characters worse, just make them more honest and give them better tools to play smart instead of having half the cast just mash low forward into trigger as their win condition.

Agreed. I want everyone to stay super strong and have powerful options, but there is some super bad design stuff going on with several characters.
 

Nobus3r1

House of Bane; ID: 8V596
There are also a handful of characters that, while not overpowered, rely on poor design. Laura for example, she's not in my top 10 but I still want her reworked. Give and take, but make her a SF character not whatever she is now. I'm not saying make characters worse, just make them more honest and give them better tools to play smart instead of having half the cast just mash low forward into trigger as their win condition.
Laura is just a shittier Abel stuck in a Street Fighter game with much, much shittier defensive options than SFIV. Laura, as she plays now, is simply a symptom of a more systemic issue.
 

FL Rushdown

Champion
Laura is just a shittier Abel stuck in a Street Fighter game with much, much shittier defensive options than SFIV. Laura, as she plays now, is simply a symptom of a more systemic issue.
Which is what I'm hoping they'll change in season 3 which was the point of my original post.
 

Nobus3r1

House of Bane; ID: 8V596
Which is what I'm hoping they'll change in season 3 which was the point of my original post.
Except for you don't fix that by nerfing Laura. You fix it by improving V-Reversals, by making characters who really need to rely on VRs in lieu of a DP have actual functional V-Skills so that they can build V-Meter and by (as they seem to be planning to) expanding the functionality of VTs. Outside of every single non-gameplay (as in literally everything that isn't the actual gameplay is provably shit) aspect of SFV the biggest disappointment to me in the game is the amount of design space that Capcom left on the table with the V-System. Changes to that or not are IMO were this game has the most room to grow...or not.
 

FL Rushdown

Champion
Except for you don't fix that by nerfing Laura. You fix it by improving V-Reversals, by making characters who really need to rely on VRs in lieu of a DP have actual functional V-Skills so that they can build V-Meter and by (as they seem to be planning to) expanding the functionality of VTs. Outside of every single non-gameplay (as in literally everything that isn't the actual gameplay is provably shit) aspect of SFV the biggest disappointment to me in the game is the amount of design space that Capcom left on the table with the V-System. Changes to that or not are IMO were this game has the most room to grow...or not.
Yeah see here's your problem. Me saying change how Laura plays doesn't mean "nerf Laura" it means "change how she plays".

Let's use my character as an example. I play Urien. St hp is a good button. Bad uriens abuse this. Adding extra frames to st hp on whiff makes Urien harder to play, but it doesn't make him worse.
 

Nobus3r1

House of Bane; ID: 8V596
Yeah see here's your problem. Me saying change how Laura plays doesn't mean "nerf Laura" it means "change how she plays".

Let's use my character as an example. I play Urien. St hp is a good button. Bad uriens abuse this. Adding extra frames to st hp on whiff makes Urien harder to play, but it doesn't make him worse.
So making a move worse doesn't make the character worse? Ummm...no. First off balancing anything about a character around shitty players is wrong and even then one of the most telling elements of high level play is whiff punishing and here your change does in fact make Urien harder to play because you've made it easier for his opponents to whiff punish one of his better normals.

With a character as complained about as Laura "change how she plays" most often translates to 'nerf' but sure, how would you change Laura without drastically reducing her effectiveness?
 

@MylesWright_

I'll be back 3ing
Let SFV be the party game it was designed to be. Coming in here with this talk of 'footsies' when some people just want to jump, dash up command grab and press Crush counters in neutral
 

FL Rushdown

Champion
So making a move worse doesn't make the character worse? Ummm...no. First off balancing anything about a character around shitty players is wrong and even then one of the most telling elements of high level play is whiff punishing and here your change does in fact make Urien harder to play because you've made it easier for his opponents to whiff punish one of his better normals.

With a character as complained about as Laura "change how she plays" most often translates to 'nerf' but sure, how would you change Laura without drastically reducing her effectiveness?
The move is only worse if you misuse it at that point, that's not a nerf to Urien it's a nerf to dumb play big difference and as long as it's a somewhat universal change I'd like it.

As for changing Laura without nerfing her into the ground I'd say remove some of her overpowering midscreen oki but let her neutral options be stronger. Give and take. A better low forward would be a good place to start, get her actually hit confirming and whiff punishing people. Maybe make st mk cancelable as a buffer option in neutral.
 

Nobus3r1

House of Bane; ID: 8V596
The move is only worse if you misuse it at that point, that's not a nerf to Urien it's a nerf to dumb play big difference and as long as it's a somewhat universal change I'd like it.
No, the move is actually just worse. How much that actually affects play is entirely dependent on the skill level of the players involved.
As for changing Laura without nerfing her into the ground I'd say remove some of her overpowering midscreen oki but let her neutral options be stronger. Give and take. A better low forward would be a good place to start, get her actually hit confirming and whiff punishing people. Maybe make st mk cancelable as a buffer option in neutral.
I'm going to need you to be more specific about what sort of changes you'd want to her oki. I would also like to point out that you've proposed a significant buff to a move that Laura players already get accused of spamming excessively (s.MK). I'm also not sure what issues there are with her cr.MK as it's already one of the better such moves in the game (decent reach, special cance-able, etc.) it just happens that it's not as useful within the character design as such a move would be for another character.
 

FL Rushdown

Champion
No, the move is actually just worse. How much that actually affects play is entirely dependent on the skill level of the players involved.

I'm going to need you to be more specific about what sort of changes you'd want to her oki. I would also like to point out that you've proposed a significant buff to a move that Laura players already get accused of spamming excessively (s.MK). I'm also not sure what issues there are with her cr.MK as it's already one of the better such moves in the game (decent reach, special cance-able, etc.) it just happens that it's not as useful within the character design as such a move would be for another character.
i think you're being intentionally dense/argumentative here just to be a dick. But I'll reiterate I understand it's not her design, I'm saying her design is bad so change it. You can make grapplers that aren't as silly as she is, and when I say silly I'm not saying it's powerful or broken strong like I said I don't even think she's top 10, I just think she wins ugly by design. Changing her to a less momentum heavy character by removing some of her midscreen pressure options(after command grab for example) but buffing her neutral is not nerfing her it's changing bad design, as for the best mechanisms to do that it depends on what direction they wanna go with the whole cast, there's almost certainly going to be big universal changes to game mechanics in S3 and what those are determined what she'll need to be viable.

Back to the Urien thing, it's not about balancing around low skilled players, it's about increasing the skill gap between bad and good players. Adding recovery to a whiffed normal like uriens St hp would have almost no impact on a player like nemo or doguras games because they time/space it better than everyone else, what it does is expose players that are predictable and just fish with CCs to actual punishment from opponents. Cause right now your best option vs a Urien st hp is to jump at him if you think it's coming, and that puts you in range for a cr hp into death. It's not about nerfing or buffing, it's
just about rewarding players for playing smart.

This isn't just a Urien thing btw. Zeku was clearly a "test character" with some mechanics and him having extra recovery on whiffed heavies strongly suggests that capcom plans on balancing those CCs like uriens st hp and karins st hk by making them easier to whiff punish, cause let's be real you aren't whiff punishing those consistently right now no matter who you are.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Weird argument. Honestly sounds like arguing for the sake of it.

Just want to add this in.. you don't BASE your balance decisions around bad play/players, but you do need to take them in to account. The simple fact is balancing with ONLY the world's best in mind builds a game that works/feels great for something like 1% of the player base, and super shitty for everyone else, which is 99/100 of the people who play the game.

It is ABSOLUTELY necessary to address design and balance decisions around lesser skilled players, provided to they do not kill upper level balance. We all need to git gud, but bad design is bad design and a game that only operates properly for 1% of the player base is a badly designed game. I'm not saying sfv only works for 1%, I'm just speaking in general.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
@FL Rushdown

Silly question, but just a thought experiment... You've played me more than almost anyone else. What character do you think I should be playing? Just curious.

I tried Urien, and the help you gave me was amazing, but ultimately i just didn't click with him. Love him thematically, still probably my favorite character to watch.
 

Nobus3r1

House of Bane; ID: 8V596
i think you're being intentionally dense/argumentative here just to be a dick.
If that's how you want to interpret things then that's one you. What I wanted was for you to clearly spell out were, specifically, you had issues with her design.
But I'll reiterate I understand it's not her design, I'm saying her design is bad so change it. You can make grapplers that aren't as silly as she is, and when I say silly I'm not saying it's powerful or broken strong like I said I don't even think she's top 10, I just think she wins ugly by design.
You can makes grapplers that play differently from Laura but in the case of SFV Capcom has clearly chosen not to. Every single grappler in the game has basically the same plan. Some (Zangief) are just better at implementing said plan than others (Alex).
Changing her to a less momentum heavy character by removing some of her midscreen pressure options(after command grab for example) but buffing her neutral is not nerfing her it's changing bad design, as for the best mechanisms to do that it depends on what direction they wanna go with the whole cast, there's almost certainly going to be big universal changes to game mechanics in S3 and what those are determined what she'll need to be viable.
It's funny that you mention her command grab because while the move was certainly improved from S1 to S2 (-1f startup, + damage) one thing that did not change was the fact that she actually doesn't get much off of landing one. When you see someone get scooped by her and then get scooped by her again that's not real. That's the person getting scooped making an executive decision that getting scooped again is a better option than getting their backdash read or having the DP blocked. When you see someone get scooped by her after a blocked normal into V-Skill Forward that's the game fucking them around a bit as she is, at best, -2 in such situations.
Back to the Urien thing, it's not about balancing around low skilled players, it's about increasing the skill gap between bad and good players. Adding recovery to a whiffed normal like uriens St hp would have almost no impact on a player like nemo or doguras games because they time/space it better than everyone else, what it does is expose players that are predictable and just fish with CCs to actual punishment from opponents. Cause right now your best option vs a Urien st hp is to jump at him if you think it's coming, and that puts you in range for a cr hp into death. It's not about nerfing or buffing, it's just about rewarding players for playing smart.
If you're looking for a game that rewards players for making smart, well thought out decisions then I'm thinking that SFV might not be for you because it's about as anime as you can make a Street Fighter game without adding in gratuitous panty shots, dudes noses randomly bleeding, etc. I also just finished watching Canada Cup were it seemed like a substantial portion of Dogura's gameplan with Urien was sticking out s.HP and seeing if his opponent walked into it. I would imagine that the priority system is something that could probably stand a good looking at before any specific normals of high usage got looked at.
This isn't just a Urien thing btw. Zeku was clearly a "test character" with some mechanics and him having extra recovery on whiffed heavies strongly suggests that capcom plans on balancing those CCs like uriens st hp and karins st hk by making them easier to whiff punish, cause let's be real you aren't whiff punishing those consistently right now no matter who you are.
One of the Zeku forms (forget whether it's old or young) also has additional recovery on his backroll that no other character does that makes meaty attacks not work properly against him. He has some phenomenally bootleg behavior on his spin kicks that a seems equally unintentional. He also has basically S1 properties on his VR (something several characters lost to the nerf-bat). If Zeku is, as you speculate, a test character then SFV is right and proper fucked because most of the stuff you're citing a being a test-bed for new ideas just seems like stuff that wasn't tested period.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Also, anyone awake? Wouldnt mind some games.

One of the Zeku forms (forget whether it's old or young) also has additional recovery on his backroll that no other character does that makes meaty attacks not work properly against him. He has some phenomenally bootleg behavior on his spin kicks that a seems equally unintentional. He also has basically S1 properties on his VR (something several characters lost to the nerf-bat). If Zeku is, as you speculate, a test character then SFV is right and proper fucked because most of the stuff you're citing a being a test-bed for new ideas just seems like stuff that wasn't tested period.
Zeku is janky as hell. I was so hoping for a Gen-like stance switching character.. someone who flowed in and out of his stances in an intuitive and smooth way, and what we got instead was (at least it feels like it to me) is two characters who were both about 75% complete glued together and released.. He has lots of options but swapping between stances is too jarring and slow, and in a game ruled by pressure, giving it up to change forms is rarely going to be a good idea.

I dunno. I understand that calling a character "bad" because they dont match my personal expectations is stupid, but Zeku had all this potential and it feels like Capcom missed the boat entirely. His normals, his stance swap, his specials and various properties.. He just feels awkward as hell.

Also, I realize that what I just typed had nothing to do with anything that's being said. Im just bored.
 

FL Rushdown

Champion
Also, anyone awake? Wouldnt mind some games.



Zeku is janky as hell. I was so hoping for a Gen-like stance switching character.. someone who flowed in and out of his stances in an intuitive and smooth way, and what we got instead was (at least it feels like it to me) is two characters who were both about 75% complete glued together and released.. He has lots of options but swapping between stances is too jarring and slow, and in a game ruled by pressure, giving it up to change forms is rarely going to be a good idea.

I dunno. I understand that calling a character "bad" because they dont match my personal expectations is stupid, but Zeku had all this potential and it feels like Capcom missed the boat entirely. His normals, his stance swap, his specials and various properties.. He just feels awkward as hell.

Also, I realize that what I just typed had nothing to do with anything that's being said. Im just bored.
He has plus/slightly negative on block stance switches but yeah he's pretty awkward.