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Street Fighter V General Discussion

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
EX is invincible on frame 1
So how does this effect gief specifically on a EX spd knockdown to dash SPD wake up non ex dp? Will it beat all non ex dp or whiff due to air born state?

sorry for the questions I just moved and have not had time to get on to practice at all in weeks.
 

Diego de Souza Costa

***The Soul Consuming Darkness***
basically Ryu, Ken, Necalli, Cammy's DPs lost their frame 1 inv. now it starts on frame 3 (air inv.) that's why it can still be CC'd, but, on the ground, as a wake up, it will lose to a meaty, or a throw (i think they also added a grab hurtbox), no idea why tho...
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
I'm of the unpopular opinion of disagreeing with the invincible DP nerf being a bad change. If offense was off the walls stupid, then yeah, I would be majorly against it. But it's generally not. But that's just my view on it. I don't think it's a great change, either...It's whatever.

I otherwise mostly agree.
 
I thought wake-up DP was fine in s1. The risk/reward ratio was definetely not in the shoto's favor. I took like what is it -70 when connected and usually took -380+ when they baited it and countered me.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
It's about more than raw damage numbers though. There are entire lists of setups and setplay stuff that auto loses to DP, it changes the way pressure works significantly.. watch an Alex s1 vs someone with a dp and someone without. They can usually combo in to CA as well, so they can lead to massive damage..

Again, it's not they are op in a vacuum, it's that the difference in the haves and have nots was pretty drastic, especially considering characters like Ibuki, who already had problems, had to burn a bar for the same thing a few characters got for free.. characters who were already very very strong. Maybe I'm missing someone but wasn't every DP character in the game considered to be extremely good? Ken, Ryu, Cammy, who am I missing?

I would have preferred everyone having an invincible reversal, and then leaving it the same (make the characters who were gifted on have to burn a bar) but people talk like they are gone completely, when they arent.. you can still use.thrm and they matter, you just have to spend a bar for huge advantages they give you.

I'm not.gonna keep ping ponging this back and forth, we all have our opinions, I just wanted to clarify mine some.
 
It's about more than raw damage numbers though. There are entire lists of setups and setplay stuff that auto loses to DP, it changes the way pressure works significantly.. watch an Alex s1 vs someone with a dp and someone without. They can usually combo in to CA as well, so they can lead to massive damage..

Again, it's not they are op in a vacuum, it's that the difference in the haves and have nots was pretty drastic, especially considering characters like Ibuki, who already had problems, had to burn a bar for the same thing a few characters got for free.. characters who were already very very strong. Maybe I'm missing someone but wasn't every DP character in the game considered to be extremely good? Ken, Ryu, Cammy, who am I missing?

I would have preferred everyone having an invincible reversal, and then leaving it the same (make the characters who were gifted on have to burn a bar) but people talk like they are gone completely, when they arent.. you can still use.thrm and they matter, you just have to spend a bar for huge advantages they give you.

I'm not.gonna keep ping ponging this back and forth, we all have our opinions, I just wanted to clarify mine some.
Thing is...the strongest characters in season 1 DIDN'T have a reversal that's the funny part. Nash,Chun-Li,Mika are arguably widely considered top 3 and none had a reversal like the shoto's. But like you said everyone has their opinion so it's cool.
 

NaCl man

Welcome to Akihabara
I think it adds depth to the wake up dp game that wasnt really needed. Now with ken lp dp will get you out of throw loops no meter. Mp dp is upper body invincible frame 1 and 2 but full from 3 to 6 so if it not a true meaty it still wins. Ex dp covers all options as a wake up dp. Overkill cause the risk of cc is still there for all dps.

tldr, wake up dp nerf was not needed. Was already enough risk without having to burn 1 bar as well.
 
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EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Thing is...the strongest characters in season 1 DIDN'T have a reversal that's the funny part. Nash,Chun-Li,Mika are arguably widely considered top 3 and none had a reversal like the shoto's. But like you said everyone has their opinion so it's cool.

Nash wasnt considered top 3 past the first few months of the game. A lot of people barely thought he was top 8. His dominance ended heavily after Evo when people figured him, and the game, out. I personally think he was somewhere in the top 7 or so but I cant countenance him any higher than that, at all. His success rate plummeted past the first half of season 1.. Chun has a reversal, its ex'd, but she has it, and Mika was broken for totally different reasons. You're a gief player right? I can see how Nash was a top 3 for you (I dont mean that in a shitty way at all, Im just saying that through your eyes I could see how he was one of your particular monsters)

That's the thing though, of the three examples of top-tiers who didn't have a reversal, one does have one, one, in Nash, I will absolutely give you. He was able to top-tier himself without one.. and one was impossibly broken to a pretty insane degree.. thats what it took to be top tier and not have a DP.. be ssuuppeerr broken. Chun, even aside from her DP, has IA legs, her FP and all her other complete horseshit. Nash.. Nash was more than the sum of his parts I think. His control and mobility made up for it.. and Mika of course had the most insane vortexy, mix-uppy insanity off a touch of any character in the game - and the ability to touch you whenever she wanted, from almost anywhere outside full screen. And with her insane damage and range command grabs you couldnt even block her out. She also had armor, which is by no means a DP, but it is a bit of defensive option. Mika would probably have emerged as top 1-2 if we had had more time with s1.

The point I'm getting at is just that Mika was top tier due to being silly broken, so shes not a great candidate for disproving the strength of DPs. Nash is a good candidate and I'll give you that.. And Chun has a reversal, it takes meter, but she still has one, and Ive never seen a Chun lacking meter, so she doesn't really count.

Now, to play devils advocate, Ibuki and Juri both have DPs and neither were OP. Neither were even good. Some people made a case for Ibuki being in the upper ranks of the mid tiers but I dont see it. Either way, neither were great. Rashid had an EX DP.. he was probably a better character than people thought, but he wasn't secret top or anything. Guile and Urien both had DP's/reversals and though Guile started to climb at the end of the season, he was considered mid tier most of the season. Urien was all over the place, we didnt have enough time with him before S2 to ever know how good or bad or in the middle he actually was.

Looking at it from that perspective, its close even in terms of top tiers with a DP and mid or low tiers with a DP -

Ken - Top
Ryu - Top
Cammy - Top
Chun - TOP
Necalli - Top
Rashid - Mid
Karin - Top
Guile - Upper MId
Ibuki - Low/MId
Juri - Low
Urien - We dont know

Which gives a pretty even spread of characters with reversals throughout the relative tier placements.. But that is 6 or so of the top 8 having reversals.

I dont know.. DP's are an odd subject. I realize Ive written a book here, and that wasnt my intention, just putting my thoughts down.


(im sorry to the Mika players, Im not trying to start a shit-storm. Mika was broken though, incredibly so. Was she normalized fairly? I dont know. But I am talking purely late s1 Mika)
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
The main issue I had with meterless DPs was that I didn't have one



By making people think about their offense?

Yes actually. When you were running pressure vs someone with a DP you had to be more careful.. You couldn't just do whatever you wanted for as long as you wanted.. if you got predictable or just too busy, you could be shut down.

I will say this, I dont think non-ex dps should be CCable. CC's on DPs made sense before, it doesnt now (unless ex'd). I still would have preferred everyone having a reversal option and leave the old dps alone.
 
It's about more than raw damage numbers though. There are entire lists of setups and setplay stuff that auto loses to DP, it changes the way pressure works significantly.. watch an Alex s1 vs someone with a dp and someone without. They can usually combo in to CA as well, so they can lead to massive damage..

Again, it's not they are op in a vacuum, it's that the difference in the haves and have nots was pretty drastic, especially considering characters like Ibuki, who already had problems, had to burn a bar for the same thing a few characters got for free.. characters who were already very very strong. Maybe I'm missing someone but wasn't every DP character in the game considered to be extremely good? Ken, Ryu, Cammy, who am I missing?

I would have preferred everyone having an invincible reversal, and then leaving it the same (make the characters who were gifted on have to burn a bar) but people talk like they are gone completely, when they arent.. you can still use.thrm and they matter, you just have to spend a bar for huge advantages they give you.

I'm not.gonna keep ping ponging this back and forth, we all have our opinions, I just wanted to clarify mine some.
There are also entire lists of setups and set play designed entirely to bait dps and punish them. There are also safe jump setups that cover all options so that if they do you block and if they don't you meaty.