General/Other - Scorpion Some Small Changes Could Help Scorpion !!

[jboogie607]

Ketchup and mustard put a great video on their youtube channel about inferno scorpion. It might not be for the advanced players on tym, but it helped me out. B4 low minion catches a lot of people. I just wish scorpion had a better showing in tournaments. Slips used scorp in the wall scroll invitational. Jagoblake has repped scorp, but when push comes to shove it's kitanna. I saw a louisanna tournament that had a good scorp, but I don't know his name. Ekeltic might know I think he was at the tourny. In ESL rebelo and recently PL used the yellow ninja. MIT is the only top8 scorpion in a NA major to my knowledge. Sometimes I think we should all main tanya.

 

[Invincible Salads]

make takedown safe.

the 212, 21 takedown 50/50 must live on.

 

[O.M.3]

except for the mid hitting one, the minions are already -20+ something on block; decent players can punish it on reaction. Better players can even take advantage of the "gap" between the string (ie: 214) and the minion (low/mid/high).

as for OH minion "ending a combo"; that'll be fine and dandy. just hoped it can't be interrupted between the string and the move itself. (am I making sense?)

and for my delayed response



YES PLEASE!!! I am okay with f2 not being an overhead but if it's at least safe (or if NRS is generous, +frames on block) at all ranges, that'd be grand!

The F2 in ninjitsu , that would be cool

 

[O.M.3]

For the last time. All Scorpion needs is his back 3,2 cancelable into a special, his forward 4 linkable from his back 3 making it a two-hit low-high setup launcher, his back 2 in Ninjutsu a low starter, and his forward 3 kick to have more range. In Hellfire and Inferno make his forward 2 meter burnable into a popup launcher, in Hellfire give his fireball faster startup and in Inferno close the gap on his 2,1 minion drop.

Thumps Up

 

[Scoot Magee]

Slips' suggestions are best imo. They would just fix the character outside of f2. F2 being safe at all ranges would be huge considering he'll be able to space himself out a lot faster after a far range f2. Because of the range I think he'll have a lot more viable options with around 5 frames less recovery.

Some of these other suggestions are just outlandish and will turn a fun footsie character into a stupid vortex character.

 

[The_Tile]

Scorpion defenitely needs help, b32 should be special cancelable I think everyone agrees on this.

Hellfire actually I don't know what it needs

Spear needs a proper armor same as Minion Grab for Inferno variation and if we get cocky also the High minion to have armor and lower frames as @Mitsuownes said for better zoning.

f4 should have lower frames, from 25 to 20 atleast. Ermac has 14 frames on his f4 they ain't the same character BUT they have a "similar" gameplay

Ninjutsu I have the feeling it's missing something but if we make f2 to be an overhead, as someone said before mileena's roll should be low too.

You are an idiot.

 

[Prinz]

Give him a 6 frame d1, 10 frames less on whiff to his spear and meterburnable string that leads to practically the same damage as your standard bnb. These are some needed, usefull and reasonable changes, right?

 

[Kingshootahz]

You are an idiot.

Aww cut him some slack he just wants full screen armoured projectiles with full combo and vortex capability, he's right on the money!

 

[Matix218]

Give him a 6 frame d1, 10 frames less on whiff to his spear and meterburnable string that leads to practically the same damage as your standard bnb. These are some needed, usefull and reasonable changes, right?

He has a 6 frame d1 already

 

[Prinz]

He has a 6 frame d1 already

Ok. A 6 frame teleport then.

 

[Matix218]

Ok. A 6 frame teleport then.

K

 

[Mahjunia]

You are an idiot.

Hahaha

 

[Agilaz]

Give me one good reason why this is a thing. Just one.

There is no reason. Why does Jason have low profiling issues? Why is Goro free to most air attacks? Why is Spectral Ermac near useless? Why is Tanya broken tier? Why isn't Predator's close low laser actually -22 on block?

These things just are, nevermind the "why".

 

[The_Tile]

Hahaha

I dunno what this has to do with anything but okay.

 

[O.M.3]

Great ideas my friends

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I'm playing Hellfire as of late, I'm cool if they leave him unchanged, not careening for buffs or anything... But I really feel like the one part of his character they haven't quite got right is his blockstrings. Being meterless loopable and turning every touch into so much damage definitely had to go, shit was stupid broke. But now trying to loop 214 has numerous counters... Backdash, poking out, uppercut, armor.... And you can't go for a throw mix-up because it also loses to also this stuff. B12 gets beaten by armour and backdash so it's probably the best option because it beats pokes, but that's all you can get... I just think he needs S2 to be a mid, or a decent mid block string, his pressure would be much weaker before with backdash able and armoured gaps, but it wouldn't be so freaking unintuitive.

 

[Matix218]

I'm playing Hellfire as of late, I'm cool if they leave him unchanged, not careening for buffs or anything... But I really feel like the one part of his character they haven't quite got right is his blockstrings. Being meterless loopable and turning every touch into so much damage definitely had to go, shit was stupid broke. But now trying to loop 214 has numerous counters... Backdash, poking out, uppercut, armor.... And you can't go for a throw mix-up because it also loses to also this stuff. B12 gets beaten by armour and backdash so it's probably the best option because it beats pokes, but that's all you can get... I just think he needs S2 to be a mid, or a decent mid block string, his pressure would be much weaker before with backdash able and armoured gaps, but it wouldn't be so freaking unintuitive.

But you can always mix it up by doing b1, fbrc or 21, fbrc instead of finishing the full string every time to keep them guessing or read their option to armor and just block/punish. And if you read backdash you can run/throw instead of cancelling the run. But I don't disagree with you tbh

 

[I GOT HANDS]

But you can always mix it up by doing b1, fbrc or 21, fbrc instead of finishing the full string every time to keep them guessing or read their option to armor and just block/punish. And if you read backdash you can run/throw instead of cancelling the run. But I don't disagree with you tbh

Every choice they make can be countered on the right read, I know. Im just saying, for them they have a couple of choices that beat like all but one option. The odds are against you getting it right and if they make one correct read of you going for anything other than B12 you get uppercut for 14%, or if they read that you are going for anything other than block they get a free armoured opener, etc. So while here is an option for everything the risk/reward is highly stacked against you on pretty much everything other than turning a B12 into profit. I just thinking making it mid would be fairer, there is still an armorable/backdashable gap, but there isn't a million options

 

[Scoot Magee]

Every choice they make can be countered on the right read, I know. Im just saying, for them they have a couple of choices that beat like all but one option. The odds are against you getting it right and if they make one correct read of you going for anything other than B12 you get uppercut for 14%, or if they read that you are going for anything other than block they get a free armoured opener, etc. So while here is an option for everything the risk/reward is highly stacked against you on pretty much everything other than turning a B12 into profit. I just thinking making it mid would be fairer, there is still an armorable/backdashable gap, but there isn't a million options

214 fbc into d3 covers all pokes, 214 fbc jump beats backdash and armor depending on the move. 214 fbc block is always a great option as well.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

214 fbc into d3 covers all pokes, 214 fbc jump beats backdash and armor depending on the move. 214 fbc block is always a great option as well.

I get the impression that you didn't actually read what I'm saying

 

[Scoot Magee]

I get the impression that you didn't actually read what I'm saying

No, I actually read it. Going for anything but block doesn't always get a free armored opener. Jumping out of a fbc can get a huge reward and avoids most armor in the game safely, it even punishes some. It also covers the option of back dash and a lot of pokes.

Scorpion has options out of FBC that cover multiple options as well. Uppercutting and throwing out armor are also both covered by blocking and are both very risky due to the - frames in most cases. Not only that but any poke loses to d3 after fbc so I don't think their options are as good as you think. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Ninjutsu already gets really good damage off of F2, that coulped with the reset would give him too much if it was overhead. I think Scorpion just needs better armor thats all hes missing imo.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

No, I actually read it. Going for anything but block doesn't always get a free armored opener. Jumping out of a fbc can get a huge reward and avoids most armor in the game safely, it even punishes some. It also covers the option of back dash and a lot of pokes.

Scorpion has options out of FBC that cover multiple options as well. Uppercutting and throwing out armor are also both covered by blocking and are both very risky due to the - frames in most cases. Not only that but any poke loses to d3 after fbc so I don't think their options are as good as you think. That's all I'm trying to say.

Ok got it, thought you misunderstood me.
I know that there is an option for everything, just saying their options are better than ours and I don't think that's a fair reward for getting into the position to even apply the pressure in the first place.

Eg
if they Backdash, they beat or are safe against everything except a run chase
If they poke, they beat or are safe against everything except B12


However
If we rc into 214, we beat or are safe against blocking, but lose to poke, uppercut, backdash, armour. Same story for RC into Throw.
If we flat run chase, we can beat the backdash, but lose to absolutely everything else

Etc

We have to make a perfect or very narrow read most the time, while they have some options that cover everything but 1 option. I just feel the risk really outweighs the reward and that it should be toned back a little.

And you say jumping covers multiple options cause it can whiff armor, maybe some match ups, but against say Lao you just get eaten by it, so everything I'm saying still applies for that match up.

 

[HeroesNZ]

For Hellfire he should have armour on EX Fireball for flash parries like Tremor. Right now it's useless and NRS should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Matix218]

Ok got it, thought you misunderstood me.
I know that there is an option for everything, just saying their options are better than ours and I don't think that's a fair reward for getting into the position to even apply the pressure in the first place.

Eg
if they Backdash, they beat or are safe against everything except a run chase
If they poke, they beat or are safe against everything except B12


However
If we rc into 214, we beat or are safe against blocking, but lose to poke, uppercut, backdash, armour. Same story for RC into Throw.
If we flat run chase, we can beat the backdash, but lose to absolutely everything else

Etc

We have to make a perfect or very narrow read most the time, while they have some options that cover everything but 1 option. I just feel the risk really outweighs the reward and that it should be toned back a little.

And you say jumping covers multiple options cause it can whiff armor, maybe some match ups, but against say Lao you just get eaten by it, so everything I'm saying still applies for that match up.

I think what Scoot was getting at is that although their options are less narrow they don't get a great risk-reward for many of their options.

Examples:

They guess correct on uppercut: They get like 12% into a knockdown
They guess wrong on uppercut: Full combo punish or at least you get your turn back and can pressure again.

They guess right on backdash: They get out of the pressure at cost of their stamina (possibly whiff punish you if you were throwing out a normal that is whiff punishable but def not a guaranteed punish)
They guess wrong on backdash: Some characters will get full combo'd or at minimum you get to continue pressure or throw and they have no stamina temporarily

They guess right on armor: They spend a bar of meter and hit you with an armor move (in many cases launching you into a full combo)
They guess wrong on armor: They lose a bar and unless their armor move is unpunishable you get a full combo into a standing reset and get to continue pressure.

They guess right on a poke: They poke you out of your pressure and get their turn back (plus they still must be on point with their timing depending on what your followup is or they may end up getting launched)
You read their poke and block: You either get a combo punish or at minimum get your turn back

So while they may have more ways to guess right than you do (their options are less narrow) the reward for many of their options are much lower than the reward when you read them correctly.

To me this means that although they may have "more" options they realistically don't get a huge reward off of some of the options and the ones that do net them a big reward (armor) come at the cost of a bar (which is very valuable in this game) and they still will generally get launched into a full combo with standing reset ender if they guess wrong (and they are now down a bar).