Question - Grandmaster some changes the we'd like to see

[One Inch Punch]

Drop the whole character? Cryo does incredibly despite screen position. Try picking him up for a while.

when i say drop, i mean he is not my main anymore. but still use him sometimes. cryo is cool , good damage and has something GM lacks, and i think it shouldn't, good AA combos. i guess cryo deserves an ice ball cancel , by the way... for a rushdown char, his strings are so minus.

 

[LaidbackOne]

when i say drop, i mean he is not my main anymore. but still use him sometimes. cryo is cool , good damage and has something GM lacks, and i think it shouldn't, good AA combos. i guess cryo deserves an ice ball cancel , by the way... for a rushdown char, his strings is so minus.

Maybe because he is not a rushdown character.

 

[One Inch Punch]

Maybe because he is not a rushdown character.

no , its not. zone with him using ice ball ...

 

[GAV]

No one can argue that when two elites who know the matchups battle and one goes GM, epic intrigue ensues...

Its no different than a great choreographed end of movie hero/boss fight.

 

[OnlineSkunk]

-b33~freeze working on all hitboxes midscreen without ex
-12~freeze midscreen w/o ex (creates mindgames with b12
f33~freeze no ex
-slightly bigger hitbox on clone to compensate for it going away on block
-clone not whiffing so close to the opponent in midspace so we can bait them and clone without it whiffing worked fine in mk9

-SOME sort of pressure that's safe/plus..give him his 212 string back, something of the sort, and some frame changes

Nothing huge but he should be compensated for losing clone on block... seems like he was designed on that and now we have what we have.. going from top 5 to like 15 or lower is bad design IMO

anything canceled into clone should be completely safe


feel free to add or discuss

I'd take those changes so I can play a character that's going to be better than the whole cast combined

 

[champdee]

heh, it's aight i can take a blowup, it's cool.
ok real talk.. most of this was a wishlist but what i think is fair is
b33, f33, 12 , f42 freeze woking on all hitboxes. corner combos the same as on male characters, ex clone fixed fully... is that good?

I want something everyone can agree on. Look, if the hitboxes got fixed right? It'd help the whole cast... no more whiffing on the breathing hitboxes I think we can all agree on that right?

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

what pisses me off is the stance-specific clone, you and your opponents torso need to be facing the same way or some shit half the time, really annoying.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Meh, edited. No reason to keep arguing about damage.

I agree with pretty much all of Champs last post.

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

Even though Sub's midscreen damage is a flaw a lot of sub players have complained about doesn't mean everyone knows about it. You can't begin a buff/nerf conversation without at least explaining where you're coming from first. It shows there was some thinking involved besides "what do I want?" Makes things more understandable and also helps to make your views respectable.

If we're comparing Ermac to Sub. MoS Ermac (the one I considered to be the most played) takes a risky guess to pump out damage. Sub doesn't have to take risky guesses. Clone also makes thing safe and in some cases giving him free offense. Two different characters so of course they'll have to different lists of advantages and disadvantages. Sub's sucky midscreen damage is a pretty acceptable tradeoff for having clone (with multiple uses) and a 50/50.

As for bugfixes, sure I'm all for making the game work. I'd love for Kotal's 11 to not whiff on crouch blockers so I can actually use it. I'd say the b33 thing could be a bugfix. But I don't think clone needs any changes besides the wonky activation it can sometimes have.

wrong, sub needs to be top tier

 

[LaidbackOne]

no , its not. zone with him using ice ball ...

Ummm...WAT?

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

Cryo isn't a rush-down variation.

GM doesn't need more damage off AAs.. You're missing the purpose entirely I think. GM gets tremendous benefits from AAing with clone, benefits he SHOULDNT get, of he also does big damage. GM is about cornering your opponent and ending them there. Just because you dont want him to play that way, is hardly sound reasoning to buff him. I sure wish Kotal had 50/50s like other members of the cast (BG/SG) that led in to my 40-60% one bar, midscreen combos.?

After reading over this thread, a lot of these changes seem aimed at making GM something he isn't supposed to be, instead of really fleshing out what he does well and was designed to do. I just don't think we need a high midscreen damage, solid damage convert off of every touch, clone vomiting, heavy pressure, ultra safe character with among, if not the best, corner game in the business , packing mixups, good armor, solid armor breaking ability, a 30+% damage throw, with decent to better than decent footsies that's not overly meter reliant so he's typically well stocked and cool ( get it? BECAISE HES MADE OF ICE) costumes.

Again, just because a few characters in this game get to have their cake and eat it, and eat yours then punch you and take your lunch money on pizza dag, doesn't meant thats right, nor is it a design to strive for.

whatever ur prob just butthurt about the GM/Sun God matchup

 

[champdee]

Meh, edited. No reason to keep arguing about damage.

I agree with pretty much all of Champs last post.

all good speak your mind man.. at the end of the day it's just a forum ya know?

 

[champdee]

what pisses me off is the stance-specific clone, you and your opponents torso need to be facing the same way or some shit half the time, really annoying.

oh goddd yea

 

[M.D.]

http://testyourmight.com/threads/list-of-all-b2-punishes.54355/ time to level up, M.D,

As I said, more than half of those do not work unless point blank, because of pushback. The first hit will whiff allowing Sub to block everything after it. Then, there's the problem of the 1-2 frame window to punish. Most Sub players already do it from max range.

I never said it was unpunishable, but to call it full combo punishable is bullshit. I watched all the tourneys with all the bigshots, evo and all, and b2 goes hardly punished because of pushback and small frame windows.

Stop downplaying this move, omg, it's full combo punishable by everyone boo hoo, my ass. It's a very good move and everyone knows it, you are all just afraid it'll get nerfed into the ground. Which it won't.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Maybe because he is not a rushdown character.

What exactly is he, now that he was changed, no longer resets neutral, and was given no extra footsies tools? I think it's kinda ok to play him rushdown now, but what would you class him as?

As I said, more than half of those do not work unless point blank, because of pushback. The first hit will whiff allowing Sub to block everything after it. Then, there's the problem of the 1-2 frame window to punish. Most Sub players already do it from max range.

I never said it was unpunishable, but to call it full combo punishable is bullshit. I watched all the tourneys with all the bigshots, evo and all, and b2 goes hardly punished because of pushback and small frame windows.

Stop downplaying this move, omg, it's full combo punishable by everyone boo hoo, my ass. It's a very good move and everyone knows it, you are all just afraid it'll get nerfed into the ground. Which it won't.

Nobody is downplaying M.D. Can you give me some examples of characters that can't punish this with a combo at max range, that aren't listed on there?

 

[EntropicByDesign]

whatever ur prob just butthurt about the GM/Sun God matchup

Hahaha, you're special huh? Reading not something you're super strong at?/I've been advocating fixes and possible buffs for Sub since the beginning of this thread. I find him to be one of the most dynamic and interesting characters in the game. I just disagree with some of what's been proposed here and there.

As to the SG MU, I'm not butthurt in the least. I have Wargod or Tremor for GM Subs, because instead of thinking a character is OP because it happens to go crazy hard vs my main, I adapted by.picking my alts/secondary to help cover any glaring holes my.main left me with. II alsoexplored the SG MU as thoroughly as I could at my skill level, to equip myself to deal with it as best as I could. At no point did I whine about Sub needing to be nerfed or.my character buffed.

So, if its at all humanly possible for you, pull your head out of.your ass and look around. You might realize that cock-pocket you call a mouth is directing derision at the wrong person.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

What exactly is he, now that he was changed, no longer resets neutral, and was given no extra footsies tools? I think it's kinda ok to play him rushdown now, but what would you class him as?




Nobody is downplaying M.D. Can you give me some examples of characters that can't punish this with a combo at max range, that aren't listed on there?

This is just my 2 pennies but Cryo feels like a bait and punish variation to me. Again, I'm liquid garbage so maybe I'm.wrong, its highly possible, but nothing in this frame data says rush-down/pressure to me. It just seems like he's a reactionary variation that wants to exploit whatever opportunities he can make.for himself through footsies, reads, punishes, etc.

 

[Lokheit]

no , its not. zone with him using ice ball ...

Cryomancer should NEVER be played as a rushdown character. I know it's common to commit this mistake, I did at first until I learned him, because you see cool weapons and think "offense offense offense gogogogo" but NO. NEVER.

Rushdown characters have ways to apply pressure (see all those guys with the cool blockstrings like Kung Lao or Liu Kang), Cryo doen's have anything worth a (insert expletive of your choice) that can apply pressure to your opponent. The only thing would be standing 1 for a single hit that can be ducked. Most of his safe moves are "you lose your turn if blocked" kind of moves.

What Cryo has are very good footsies tools (F4 is an amazing tool, D4 into short run gives you plenty of safe stuff to work with) and very good movement (probably the best movement of any non-teleporting character, better than some teleporters, his dash, his slide, the long reaching JIP1...). Most of his moves are designed to advance and reach his opponent, not to win a poke battle or gaining the initiative face to face.

Cryomancer gameplay is 100% about punishing your opponent (and by punshing I mean destroying him) either on block or for not knowing their distance. You should play him at least 1 step away from your opponent, if you get closer you will get destroyed by real rushdown guys. Once you get the momentum going you can keep throwing blows at him because your combos will always end in HKD, but you have to get there first.

Not being a rushdown character doesn't mean he's a zoner. That said, he has better tools to beat a zoner following his rules (slide under high projectile, EX Iceball eating projectiles) than beating a real rushdown character trying to rush him down (you get too close to him and try to get the initiative, you get destroyed). You have to be VERY patient and know your distances and speeds. You can "rushdown" someone that is still learning because Cryo can go into "momentum mode" after getting an opening, but that doesn't make him a rushdown character. You could zone that same guy too, I've got matches where I would throw Iceballs non stop and they wouldn't know what to do instead of blocking.

 

[One Inch Punch]

Cryomancer should NEVER be played as a rushdown character. I know it's common to commit this mistake, I did at first until I learned him, because you see cool weapons and think "offense offense offense gogogogo" but NO. NEVER.

Rushdown characters have ways to apply pressure (see all those guys with the cool blockstrings like Kung Lao or Liu Kang), Cryo doen's have anything worth a (insert expletive of your choice) that can apply pressure to your opponent. The only thing would be standing 1 for a single hit that can be ducked. Most of his safe moves are "you lose your turn if blocked" kind of moves.

What Cryo has are very good footsies tools (F4 is an amazing tool, D4 into short run gives you plenty of safe stuff to work with) and very good movement (probably the best movement of any non-teleporting character, better than some teleporters, his dash, his slide, the long reaching JIP1...). Most of his moves are designed to advance and reach his opponent, not to win a poke battle or gaining the initiative face to face.

Cryomancer gameplay is 100% about punishing your opponent (and by punsihing I mean destroying him) either on block or for not knowing their distance. You should play him at least 1 step away from your opponent, if you get closer he will get destroyed by real rushdown guys. Once you get the momentum going you can keep throwing blows at him because your combos will always end in HKD, but you have to get there first.

Not being a rushdown character doesn't mean he's a zoner. That said, he has better tools to beat a zoner following his rules (slide under high projectile, EX Iceball eating projectiles) than beating a real rushdown character trying to rush him down (you get too close to him and try to get the initiative, you get destroyed). You have to be VERY patient and know your distances and speeds. You can "rushdown" someone that is still learning because Cryo can go into "momentum mode" after getting an opening, but that doesn't make him a rushdown character. You could zone that same guy too, I've got matches where I would throw Iceballs non stop and they wouldn't know what to do instead of blocking.

that's why i think he needs some pressure strings, because he lacks it. in my opinion he was made for rushdown... but i understood your point of view. and if you find a opponent that u can zone with cryo , and he doesn't know what to do, only block,your opponent is a bad player.

 

[Lokheit]

that's why i think he needs some pressure strings, because he lacks it. in my opinion he was made for rushdown... but i understood your point of view. and if you find a opponent that u can zone with cryo , and he doesn't know what to do, only block,your opponent is a bad player.

I don't think he was intended to be a rushdown character at any point honestly. His tools are very good for the way he's played and I don't think he needs pressure strings (if you're trying to play 1 step away from your opponent it would be counter productive to have strings designed to be closer).

I main him, with a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge lot of hours in the lab and against other opponents and while I think he needs a couple of things (F122 putting your opponent in a good position for B2 as currently it randomly sends the opponent the other way, and air hammer being like some characters ground pounds: a low that staggers your opponent on block) I don't think pressure strings are what he needs. As long as you don't take online results seriously (characters based on punishing underperform online because of the horrible netcode, but that's the programmer's fault, not the game balance team's fault), he's actually good at doing his job.

 

[One Inch Punch]

I don't think he was intended to be a rushdown character at any point honestly. His tools are very good for the way he's played and I don't think he needs pressure strings (if you're trying to play 1 step away from your opponent it would be counter productive to have strings designed to be closer).

I main him, with a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge lot of hours and while I think he needs a couple of things (F122 putting your opponent in a good position for B2 as currently it randomly sends the opponent the other way, and air hammer being like some characters ground pounds: a low that staggers your opponent on block) I don't think pressure strings are what he needs. As long as you don't take online results seriously (characters based on punishing underperform online because of the horrible netcode), he's actually good at doing his job.

cryo isn't bad , i agree, but it's pretty hard beat OU chars or good players as well . i use him since day 1 .he was lacking a thing he was made to do: damage. (of course, he had midscreen damage way better than GM for exemple) after the buff he actually does damage, but in my opinion , he lacks something yet

 

[Levaranoia]

*opened thread* *looks at requests* *laughs* *closes thread* *laughs once again at idiotic requests*

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Rushdown characters have ways to apply pressure (see all those guys with the cool blockstrings like Kung Lao or Liu Kang), Cryo doen's have anything worth a (insert expletive of your choice) that can apply pressure to your opponent. The only thing would be standing 1 for a single hit that can be ducked. Most of his safe moves are "you lose your turn if blocked" kind of moves.

What Cryo has are very good footsies tools (F4 is an amazing tool, D4 into short run gives you plenty of safe stuff to work with) and very good movement (probably the best movement of any non-teleporting character, better than some teleporters, his dash, his slide, the long reaching JIP1...). Most of his moves are designed to advance and reach his opponent, not to win a poke battle or gaining the initiative face to face.

I mean, Kung Lao has the same D4, gets much more off it than Cryo does, runs faster, and his F2 is better than Cryo's F4 in every way. He's way better at footsies than Cryo, but he's still a "rushdown" character, and he has no 50/50 to open his opponent's up with. I think Lao much better fits the label "footsies" IMO

Cryo can now threaten his 50/50 after getting a knockdown much easier than he can anywhere else on screen, at stretch range it's not a 50/50 unless you count slide, and that is a 50/50 where the risk/reward is strongly against you. I think he should always be searching for knockdowns, with Slides, JiKs, whatever, and rushing up and going for the 50/50, or reading armour. He gets much more off his B2 than other variations.

In the neutral you definitely want to abuse your D4 when you are at that range, just aim to get slightly closer is better as it gives you that D3 (which is a 50/50 on hit and -1 on block, although B2 doesn't jail), and this range also gives you F33 which is a nice string to be in range of as Cryo, F122 is nice to be in range of as well and staggering F12 for 0 on block into F33 is dope, but maybe this is kinda gimmicky. B12 is good for chasing backdashes of people trying to get outta that range. D4 into run-up something is definitely great for getting in as you mentioned, and if your opponent adapts to that D4 still guarantees F42 which will open them up into full combo if they tried to do anything like armour through your run-up throw or special, but can cancel into Iceburst for your best pushback string on block.


I've changed my opinion on the nature of Cryo a few times, the recent changes too. This is in my opinion what he does best now. I'm not sure whether or not it foots the bill as rushdown and I'm not going to give it that label because it doesn't quite seem as straight forward as "run up, apply pressure". However he definitely wants to be getting in, whether or not he needs to sit at stretch range with D4 and get in safely or not. Just my perspective, and if I missed anything on Cryo's gameplan let me know

I don't think he was intended to be a rushdown character at any point honestly.

NRS at some point of practically every single one of their HypeStreams, have described him as the Rushdown variation for Sub. That's what they are trying to do with him, they definitely failed at first, not sure if he fits the label even now.

 

[Colest]

The one change (GM Sub) should get is B33 + Ice Ball hitting all body types. Fixing clone issues like poking through it is something that will never happen and I doubt that they'll ever make it consistent on-hit so I think Sub players can live with clone being in the state it's in. Ideally I wouldn't mind seeing the scaling on Ice Ball lowered some, which would be a smart way to help out Sub's damage without buffing GM's corner damage which is where it should be as well as open up more combo options. With the Ice Ball scaling, spending more than a bar of meter on a combo to continue it has such horrible damage returns that it's not worth it and it also makes certain strings significantly less useful.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. Also, cute test, but it's not really fair, considering how the situation is completely out of context and I don't know the character's animations. You actually weren't the only one asking for nerfs. The guy I was replying to was saying so as well. You can't just go and nerf Sub Zero (who is high mid tier) without making his bad match ups worse and make him unviable.

In no order:

1. Cassie
2. Kung Lao
3. Tanya
4. Quan Chi
5. Liu Kang
6. Kitana
7. Raiden
8. DVorah
9. Erron Black
10. Shinnok
11. Predator
12. Takeda
13. Sonya
14. Reptile

Not to mention Kung Jin/Jax/Scorp, but regardless thats half the cast up there as is... for him to be "high mid tier" he has to be above multiple characters there, theres absolutely no way that GM is an upper mid tier character.