Question - Grandmaster some changes the we'd like to see

[M.D.]

Oh please. Tell that to the decent players out there who do it consistently. And 13 frames is more than enough to punish. You can pubish Quan's b324, right?

There were a couple of threads where those "decent" players all agreed it's not reactable, i'm not just talking out of my ass. I'm not going to search for it now but there were, no bullshit.
About punishing, Quan's string doesn't push back as much. You will never be able to full-combo punish b2 with, let's say, Reptile's f4 if the sub player has spent more than 1 day playing. Keep in mind this discussion is about raw sub, not even touching the GM variation where every b2 is covered by the clone and impossible to punish when done right.

Also, I didn't see anybody asking for nerfs for Sub (except me, I still consider ex frost bomb should be at least -15 on block), the only thing that needs to stop is the Sub downplaying.

Have you ever noticed that almost everyone counterpicks GM with Quan and Lao? You probably did, since most of those tourneys were posted on this site and you were in them. Most of the people here want to bring his bad matchups up a notch, but nobody cares about the gap they leave with the majority of the characters that have to work tremendously more to even keep up with GM in a match.

Hell, I also learned Summoner and Vicious just because I was tired to play GM's game every time someone picked him.

 

[just_2swift]

Tacos are delicious when salted properly. Lololol

 

[rubmytaco]

There were a couple of threads where those "decent" players all agreed it's not reactable, i'm not just talking out of my ass. I'm not going to search for it now but there were, no bullshit.
About punishing, Quan's string doesn't push back as much. You will never be able to full-combo punish b2 with, let's say, Reptile's f4 if the sub player has spent more than 1 day playing. Keep in mind this discussion is about raw sub, not even touching the GM variation where every b2 is covered by the clone and impossible to punish when done right.

Also, I didn't see anybody asking for nerfs for Sub (except me, I still consider ex frost bomb should be at least -15 on block), the only thing that needs to stop is the Sub downplaying.

Have you ever noticed that almost everyone counterpicks GM with Quan and Lao? You probably did, since most of those tourneys were posted on this site and you were in them. Most of the people here want to bring his bad matchups up a notch, but nobody cares about the gap they leave with the majority of the characters that have to work tremendously more to even keep up with GM in a match.

Hell, I also learned Summoner and Vicious just because I was tired to play GM's game every time someone picked him.

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. Also, cute test, but it's not really fair, considering how the situation is completely out of context and I don't know the character's animations. You actually weren't the only one asking for nerfs. The guy I was replying to was saying so as well. You can't just go and nerf Sub Zero (who is high mid tier) without making his bad match ups worse and make him unviable.

 

[M.D.]

Sure, I'm not trying to shove my oppinions down your throat.
You are right about nerfing him without thinking would destroy him, I just spawned here to remind people that buffing him without thinking would also make more than half the cast unviable against him.

And boy, there were some buff requests in this thread that had me trembling under the kitchen sink for 20 minutes just thinking about them.

 

[rubmytaco]

Sure, I'm not trying to shove my oppinions down your throat.
You are right about nerfing him without thinking would destroy him, I just spawned here to remind people that buffing him without thinking would also make more than half the cast unviable against him.

And boy, there were some buff requests in this thread that had me trembling under the kitchen sink for 20 minutes just thinking about them.

Don't get me wrong. When I say Sub is fine, I mean he is absolutely fine the way he is and doesn't need any buffs.

 

[SaltShaker]

the GM variation where every b2 is covered by the clone and impossible to punish when done right.

 

[One Inch Punch]

Given that clone can anti-air someone for you while you do other things.. I kinda do actually. You can also uppercut to AA, or use whatever other AA options Sub has. The thing is, if clone were ONLY an AA tool, sure, more damage makes sense, but by having clone out, you aren't *just* AAing, you are owning a very large chunk of the screen and owning it automatically. You don't take the risk of AAing with a normal and messing it up and eating my jump in, nor can I alter my timing (dive kick, Kitanas hover thing, etc) in the air to throw off the clone. If I touch it, I'm frozen and automatically lose almost 20% of my life. You can also AA my attempt to get around the clone with your own AA.. So if I jump vs a GM Sub who's on point, I'm taking an uugglyy risk. Even if I don't get cloned, you can just set up and D2 me, or whatever else he has that works well for AAing (I'm not very familiar with Sub from a player's perspective, just opponent).

I actually think that damage is really good considering everything else the clone does at the same time as its acting as an 'automatic' AA. 1/5th of my life bar is nice for something you can drop, then just leave on the screen to potentially ruin my day, while you, the player, with all Subs other abilities and tools, try also to ruin my day.

Also, what kind of corner carry do you get off an AA combo if the clone catches me jumping?

let me see... sub d2 is pretty slow, u just can AA with this if u predict a jump-in, if u choose corner carry when your opponent freezes on the clone u get 17%, if choose damage u get 18% (LMAO), if use S1 for AA u get nothing else but low damage for whatever it is your combo. the biggest damage by AA with GM is when u can land b12 into ice ball after S1, and still trash damage. and last but not least , every jik at the right range will make sub block and the clone disappears, only if u predict with a back dash or any poke to lower your hitbox. sub looks noob saibot at mk9 when u look to midscreen damage.

 

[One Inch Punch]

come on?! b33 only connecting with a bar midscreen in males
it can not even be called a 50/50

they should fix his corner and mid combos to every character, either for b33 ice ball midscreen on males and corner combos on females

 

[I GOT HANDS]

No, and No.


-13 is barely what you can call full combo punishable by the entire cast. Pushback and range guarantees you will not get standing 1 punished ever on b2. Only advancing moves under 13 do that, and there are not many. Not to say you have a very small window to punish this with those moves, because most of them are in the range of 10-11 frames. And a slide or dash punish is not exactly a "full combo" now is it?
How you put it it's like you compare it with Raiden's b2. No thank you.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/list-of-all-b2-punishes.54355/ time to level up, M.D.

let me see... sub d2 is pretty slow, u just can AA with this if u predict a jump-in, if u choose corner carry when your opponent freezes on the clone u get 17%, if choose damage u get 18% (LMAO), if use S1 for AA u get nothing else but low damage for whatever it is your combo. the biggest damage by AA with GM is when u can land b12 into ice ball after S1, and still trash damage. and last but not least , every jik at the right range will make sub block and the clone disappears, only if u predict with a back dash or any poke to lower your hitbox. sub looks noob saibot at mk9 when u look to midscreen damage.

Sure, AA'ing with Clone doesnt get you much more damage than an uppercut, however it does get like you like 4% more and a lot more corner carry and untechable slide, corner carry much more important than a couple % of damage midscreen. Even if it was barely better than uppercut, even if it was exactly the same, it wouldn't be a bad aspect of the character - this is just an added bonus of clone. Also, I really don't think you can space a JiK through the Clone where Sub needs to block it and can't backdash or lowprofile it and force them into the Clone

 

[One Inch Punch]

http://testyourmight.com/threads/list-of-all-b2-punishes.54355/ time to level up, M.D.


Sure, AA'ing with Clone doesnt get you much more damage than an uppercut, however it does get like you like 4% more and a lot more corner carry and untechable slide, corner carry much more important than a couple % of damage midscreen. Even if it was barely better than uppercut, even if it was exactly the same, it wouldn't be a bad aspect of the character - this is just an added bonus of clone. Also, I really don't think you can space a JiK through the Clone where Sub needs to block it and can't backdash or lowprofile it and force them into the Clone

try spacing the clone and do a jik, and u will see. an exemple: after your opponet b12 and clone , do a jik

 

[RM Ree]

A lot of GM players throw ice ball from behind clone. A lot of well spaced jip/ jik attempts will work out in that scenario. Sub himself can get a full conversion off of ji1.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

try spacing the clone and do a jik, and u will see. an exemple: after your opponet b12 and clone , do a jik

Just tested against SZ Scorps JiKs, I know people complain about them the most. Plenty of time to safely backdash if thats the read, with frames to spare, both on hit and block. Only way opponent doesn't get frozen is if they JiK too early to connect you with it anyway.

Anyone else with a better JiK that will test this way?

 

[One Inch Punch]

Just tested against SZ Scorps JiKs, I know people complain about them the most. Plenty of time to safely backdash if thats the read, with frames to spare, both on hit and block. Only way opponent doesn't get frozen is if they JiK too early to connect you with it anyway.

Anyone else with a better JiK that will test this way?

try ermac

 

[Undeadjim]

That's in the EU though and once... put madzin over here in our tournys and lets see how far he makes it using all sub.. I like madzin though, but lts be real.

Can we stop with this? EU have proven their skill and VS5 was no small tournament lets not be ignorant please.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

try ermac

God, this one felt a lot closer, I felt like I was just out of range by a couple of frames. It won't connect, but Sub DOES need to backdash immediately after the Clone so this is entirely a read / mix-up, Ermac will catch him if he tries to do it on reaction. However, Ermac gets caught by Clone everytime if he doesn't make it disappear.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I feel like people complaining about Grandmaster are always doing it for the wrong reasons. You guys do realise he gets 31% off a throw in the corner right? :/

I don't think he is OP in any way, just saying, if I was going to complain about GM, this would be why. It's the only reason I still play the character lol. Throw into Clone

 

[One Inch Punch]

God, this one felt a lot closer, I felt like I was just out of range by a couple of frames. It won't connect, but Sub DOES need to backdash immediately after the Clone so this is entirely a read / mix-up, Ermac will catch him if he tries to do it on reaction. However, Ermac gets caught by Clone everytime if he doesn't make it disappear.

I still think the clone disappearing on block is the biggest nerf of this game lmao...just kiddin , not the biggest, but its one of the biggest nerfs

 

[One Inch Punch]

I feel like people complaining about Grandmaster are always doing it for the wrong reasons. You guys do realise he gets 31% off a throw in the corner right? :/

I don't think he is OP in any way, just saying, if I was going to complain about GM, this would be why. It's the only reason I still play the character lol. Throw into Clone

i agree that sub corner game is very very good, but still think that he needs a slight damage buff for midscreen, at the least for AA and airborne frozen opponents caught in the clone... just 4-5%.

 

[stamatis]

It's the last time I double click in a thread about buffing sub zero,I am tired of you,you cry since day one and now I am going to throw up!

 

[rubmytaco]

I still think the clone disappearing on block is the biggest nerf of this game lmao...just kiddin , not the biggest, but its one of the biggest nerfs

Like I've said a couple of times before, this wasn't an actual nerf. The freezing properties of clone going away on block was basically always there, but it remained visible on screen. I've had many WTF moments playing Sub in the early days when I would block an NJP from Kung Jin and he would just walk through the clone. As stated in the patch notes when they fixed this, they said that clone then correctly went away (visually) on block.

 

[rubmytaco]

i agree that sub corner game is very very good, but still think that he needs a slight damage buff for midscreen, at the least for AA and airborne frozen opponents caught in the clone... just 4-5%.

Sub gets to carry you to the corner from almost anywhere on the screen.. Isn't that enough?

 

[One Inch Punch]

Sub gets to carry you to the corner from almost anywhere on the screen.. Isn't that enough?

no. sub's corner dependency made me drop him. i dont like being dependent of screen position.

 

[rubmytaco]

no. sub's corner dependency made me drop him. i dont like being dependent of screen position.

Then you were right to pick a different character. Grandmaster Sub has always been a corner dependent character, as he should be. Why would he be so good in the corner AND midscreen? It's not like his damage is terrible midscreen anyway.

 

[RM Ree]

no. sub's corner dependency made me drop him. i dont like being dependent of screen position.

Drop the whole character? Cryo does incredibly despite screen position. Try picking him up for a while.

 

[LaidbackOne]

Saying that those changes are "nothing huge" is a freaking understatement. GM is not a pressure character so why do you think he needs a pressure string? Comparing characters between MK9-MKX is pretty dumb since they are totaly different games.