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Match-up Discussion Smoke mu chart mk9

Yeah the only time read comes into play is when have to read a special after the D1, blocking the D1 is the read, punishing it is the reaction
Thanks, that is what I am trying to say. All d1s aren't punished because moves can be special cancelled. If u couldn't special cancel them into an armor move or something, they would be blown up always unless the punish was missed.
 
glad i started major drama tonight in this thread got everyone thinking there game playing fundamentals . @MITDJT we were right from the start dont listen to the ppl who says its on reads trust me its on reaction lol i said it from start
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
wait a second, f2,1 is minus so u can always counter poke or choose to see if she tries to jump or etc. Anything that is minus on pressure and can't be special cancelled is able to be counterpoked. Like when kabal does f4 and dash cancels u are able to poke or wait to see if does ex dash after. The read comes in when u make that decision. Something punishable is something u react to. No read is needed to be made. Also I have used that vs DJT before, if I try and go for anything other than a jump or just blocking after f2,1 he counters. Nobody punishes all pokes because we are humans, we dnt have perfect reactions.
The block advantage on f21 is spacing dependent, actually. Kitana's at advantage after a blocked max range f21.
 

coolwhip

Noob
The read is whether he's doing a poke or another normal. That's kinda the only reason Kitana is able to open up Johnny Cage since if you can just react to every poke, you'll just sit there and block whatever she does, and if she pokes, you'll just counterpoke and start your pressure. Why else would Cage get hit with standing 2 in certain situations? She would almost literally not be able to open him up ever otherwise.

I don't think it's a read in the sense that it's a total guess. But once you understand this game and its neutral, you've gotten conditioned to understanding the poking game and when players like to poke, so in the footsie game, when both players are say, at sweep distance, someone will be looking to poke to get his offense going. Recognizing this, you're waiting for him to poke (so you're expecting it, which makes it not a total reaction), and you just let go of block and counter-poke. So I wouldn't say it's 100% read as in a complete guess otherwise players wouldn't be counterpoking so well and so often, but it is definitely not pure reaction as in you clearly see a poke coming, block, and counter it. You react to the movement, which you've been conditioned to believe is going to be a poke, and most times, it is.
 
The block advantage on f21 is spacing dependent, actually. Kitana's at advantage after a blocked max range f21.
Even so, if I do a d1 or d3 she can't do anything other than a d1 or d3 if it is plus enough. But I was specifically talking about d1s on block. There is something going on if I (and others) aren't getting this.
 
The read is whether he's doing a poke or another normal. That's kinda the only reason Kitana is able to open up Johnny Cage since if you can just react to every poke, you'll just sit there and block whatever she does, and if she pokes, you'll just counterpoke and start your pressure. Why else would Cage get hit with standing 2 in certain situations? She would almost literally not be able to open him up ever otherwise.

I don't think it's a read in the sense that it's a total guess. But once you understand this game and its neutral, you've gotten conditioned to understanding the poking game and when players like to poke, so in the footsie game, when both players are say, at sweep distance, someone will be looking to poke to get his offense going. Recognizing this, you're waiting for him to poke (so you're expecting it, which makes it not a total reaction), and you just let go of block and counter-poke. So I wouldn't say it's 100% read as in a complete guess otherwise players wouldn't be counterpoking so well and so often, but it is definitely not pure reaction as in you clearly see a poke coming, block, and counter it. You react to the movement, which you've been conditioned to believe is going to be a poke, and most times, it is.
But u can see if it is a d1 or a standing 2 or etc. It ain't like the normals start up at 0 frames haha. When something is blocked, u react accordingly based on the frames it is on block. If it is special cancellable, then u read whether they will do a special after or etc.
All I am saying is a d1 by itself can be reacted to on block. The read comes in only because u can special cancel it (tho d1 to special cancel is not safe and only works safely if u got armor or a tele in some situations and etc.)
 

RM AtK!

aka - RM_AtK !
Premium Supporter
Tym is disappointing atm.. This is why when mkx comes out i hope everyone collaberates together. Then we can all get along n lvl up the community as a whole for people coming into the scene as well as people already here
 

coolwhip

Noob
But u can see if it is a d1 or a standing 2 or etc. It ain't like the normals start up at 0 frames haha. When something is blocked, u react accordingly based on the frames it is on block. If it is special cancellable, then u read whether they will do a special after or etc.
But MIT, if that was the case, standing 2 wouldn't hit ever (an exaggeration, obviously, but you get my point) in the footsie game. Because the Cage player would then do what you suggested: Just hold block and react accordingly. If it's a standing 2, she'll probably do 212 or 21xcutter and then he'll just block and go from there, and if it's a d1, he counter-pokes. What Dizzy is saying is that this is not the case. I mean if it were, Cage would never get opened up in this match-up.
 
But MIT, if that was the case, standing 2 wouldn't hit ever (an exaggeration, obviously, but you get my point) in the footsie game. Because the Cage player would then do what you suggested: Just hold block and react accordingly. If it's a standing 2, she'll probably do 212 or 21xcutter and then he'll just block and go from there, and if it's a d1, he counter-pokes. What Dizzy is saying is that this is not the case. I mean if it were, Cage would never get opened up in this match-up.
This still isn't making sense to me. All moves can be seen. If I see a standing 2, I am not going to autopilot punish like it is a d1. Reactions and reads are very different. Also REO is on my side on this as well so something is up as I am saying and this needs to be settled. I have no problem being wrong but what is being said isn't adding up.
 

coolwhip

Noob
This still isn't making sense to me. All moves can be seen. If I see a standing 2, I am not going to autopilot punish like it is a d1. Reactions and reads are very different. Also REO is on my side on this as well so something is up as I am saying and this needs to be settled. I have no problem being wrong but what is being said isn't adding up.
You're saying you can see a standing 2 coming? My man, it has 11 frames of start-up. By the time you realize it's a standing 2, you've either A) blocked it because you're already holding block and you'll have to take the block string or B) eat a full combo, or at least a full string. I don't know if I'm misinterpreting you but it seems to me you're saying you can tell whether it's a d1 or a standing 2 from the start-up animations before the move even hits you. What I'm saying is you only realize what the move is after you've blocked it and if it's a d1, even though it's -15 or whatever, by the time you let go and punish she would have recovered. That's why I'm saying you have to make a semi-read and expect a poke from the moment you see some movement.

Anyway, by now I think we both understand what the other is saying.
 
You're saying you can see a standing 2 coming? My man, it has 11 frames of start-up. By the time you realize it's a standing 2, you've either A) blocked it because you're already holding block and you'll have to take the block string or B) eat a full combo, or at least a full string. I don't know if I'm misinterpreting you but it seems to me you're saying you can tell whether it's a d1 or a standing 2 from the start-up animations before the move even hits you. What I'm saying is you only realize what the move is after you've blocked it and if it's a d1, even though it's -15 or whatever, by the time you let go and punish she would have recovered. That's why I'm saying you have to make a semi-read and expect a poke from the moment you see some movement.

Anyway, by now I think we both understand what the other is saying.
That is what I have been saying lmao. U are not understanding. I am not saying I know what move is going to come out. I am saying I can see the move I blocked lol, which u can do with all moves u block. There is no read and reacting to a d1 or anything that is punishable. There is only a read if u can special cancel it safely.
Edit: u might want to watch DJT at evo again. He wasn't making reads on pokes. He was reacting.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
ok explain how smoke escapes corner lol hes stuck whole round cant do a thing full range blade charge and cant escape
If Baraka is pressuring in the corner then a smart smoke away will get him out of the corner. If Baraka is blade charge distance and keeping you in the corner, just rush him down and try and open him up.

And even though Baraka does own Smoke in the corner, Smoke almost always has the meter advantage and can take a whole round with one or two combos. It is definitely in Smoke's favor.
 

coolwhip

Noob
That is what I have been saying lmao. U are not understanding. I am not saying I know what move is going to come out. I am saying I can see the move I blocked lol, which u can do with all moves u block. There is no read and reacting to a d1 or anything that is punishable. There is only a read if u can special cancel it safely.
Edit: u might want to watch DJT at evo again. He wasn't making reads on pokes. He was reacting.
So basically what we disagree on is I don't think you'll react in time to counterpoke if you just block the poke unless you were expecting it, even if it's heavily negative, due to the short amount of duration and block stun, while you think it's possible. OK, at least we now understand each other. It'll be worth having this debate later but for now I gotta go to bed lol.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
I agree with the stuff @coolwhip has been saying @MITDJT that is how I have been playing the game. A read isn't necessarily throwing out a yolo DP, it can be a soft read like this situation. Not all situations are pure read vs pure reaction as you know. As far as kitanas d1 being punishable on reaction, of course. On that note 16 bit hasnt used raw D1 up close against me (on purpose at least) in 2-3 years lol. I am speaking about d1 cutter mixed up with various other things.

I personally feel like you are incorporating reads more often then you even realize in your counterpoke game and not realizing it, and that is where the discrepancy in our discussion is happening. If you feel that's not true though, I don't think we can do anything besides disagree. All I have is my experience and opinion on the matter and I feel as though this theory of how counterpoking works that I have developed sometime in 2012 has carried me far in the game's life. But in the end, all it is, is a theory. I believe this theory is one of the reasons I have excelled in the Kitana match as well.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Xarakamaka. Listen to me. If you can do what claim you can do as consistently as you claim you can (90% of the time) show us the video of your High Level Play consistently pulling this off without fail.



It's that simple. Produce the video of this and massive apologizes will flood the thread from everyone who disagreed with you.
 

coolwhip

Noob
@MITDJT Just one last thing to be clear, my point about not being able to react to pokes is because of the other factors involved since your opponent has other options. In vacuum, I do believe you can react to a d1 and punish, but because of the presence of other options, I think there's too much on my mind and too many options to consider to be able to react in time. But anyway, we'll resume this some other time.
 
I agree with the stuff @coolwhip has been saying @MITDJT that is how I have been playing the game. A read isn't necessarily throwing out a yolo DP, it can be a soft read like this situation. Not all situations are pure read vs pure reaction as you know. As far as kitanas d1 being punishable on reaction, of course. On that note 16 bit hasnt used raw D1 up close against me (on purpose at least) in 2-3 years lol. I am speaking about d1 cutter mixed up with various other things.

I personally feel like you are incorporating reads more often then you even realize in your counterpoke game and not realizing it, and that is where the discrepancy in our discussion is happening. If you feel that's not true though, I don't think we can do anything besides disagree. All I have is my experience and opinion on the matter and I feel as though this theory of how counterpoking works that I have developed sometime in 2012 has carried me far in the game's life.
This is going to need discussion tbh, because there is a middle ground both of us aren't getting at. We both obviously understand the poking game and etc. so that isn't an issue. I was mainly lost on how u can't see a poke when it has an animation that u can see and react to. The only thing that u can't react to are vortexes or 50/50s that have normals that are fast enough where cant fuzzy them (like if someone had a 10 frame low and 9 frame overhead). Both our understandings of the poke game have obviously worked so I dnt know what is missing.
 
@MITDJT Just one last thing to be clear, my point about not being able to react to pokes is because of the other factors involved since your opponent has other options. In vacuum, I do believe you can react to a d1 and punish, but because of the presence of other options, I think there's too much on my mind and too many options to consider to be able to react in time. But anyway, we'll resume this some other time.
Yeah I mentioned that is where the read comes in. The D1 by itself can be punished on reaction by itself always.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
This is going to need discussion tbh, because there is a middle ground both of us aren't getting at. We both obviously understand the poking game and etc. so that isn't an issue. I was mainly lost on how u can't see a poke when it has an animation that u can see and react to. The only thing that u can't react to are vortexes or 50/50s that have normals that are fast enough where cant fuzzy them (like if someone had a 10 frame low and 9 frame overhead). Both our understandings of the poke game have obviously worked so I dnt know what is missing.
Fair enough. I also am curious what theory other players believe in for read vs pure reaction school of thought for counter poking to interrupt things like kitana d1 xx cutter, ermac d1 xx lift, or smoke d1 xx bomb. I believe that it is not possible to interrupt these without making a read (which opens you up to getting hit by other things). Arguing about punishing a raw d1 on reaction is moot as I believe that is possible as well, so I don't think there is any discussion against it going on.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Premium Supporter
LOL surprised at you mustard . next tournament ill smash ur pad and see how you do like i had to play . i told u and the audience through my games my dpad was pushed in and buttons were sticky . why do you think i chose baraka and sheeva and kl . did i chose my mains? , no . you took it the wrong way . someone said "uk vs usa weve seen this before and know how it ends" , i said that wasnt me and chris . yeh PHOSFERRAX WON i told him before too and u my pad was fuked from train lol. i didmt even chose scarlett smoke or cage because i was saving them for that evo! ! didnt want anyone seeing my tricks pre hand . phosferrax i really like as a person and played him lots before that tourny and he'll admit he knows id usually destroy him even with sheeva . hence why he said before game " please dont humiliate me with sheeva" , and i said dont worry my pads fuked im just gna mess about amyway . you really think id even chose kang vs cyrax????? your a fool . i had some respect for you before this what you wrote . both you and your bro stirring stuff . again I WENT to tourny chose baraka and sheeva and kl vs his reptile. dont spout things making out the circumstances were fair lmao . you really think if i had perfect pad with my mains youd destroy me? , hilarious . you represented and failed . didnt even make it out of pools loooooooool . you have no idea how far we came compared to what you were then . how can you even post this after i said to you in person about pad. then you write this lmao . such a joke you came second with your main with working pad vs phosferrax . and you call me out about coming 3rd cos of it when this "online warrior " beat your brother 3-0 under my circumstance after playing 20minutes on lan for first time with that pad . you lost all my respect from this . didnt even put down the whole story. lol ur a joke mate . if we went usa we'd either win or top 3 easy lol.
He's right though.

What you're saying is similar to my whole smashing my head open at EVO, WHAT IF I didn't?... Doesn't matter , that's not how it went, just something gotta hold.

You said about how much you'd gone forward before, but when I hopped on I quickly racked up the wins with a few adjustments.

Mk9 is dead here, just wait for MKX. That'll be the time. Chill.
 
Fair enough. I also am curious what theory other players believe in for read vs pure reaction school of thought for counter poking to interrupt things like kitana d1 xx cutter, ermac d1 xx lift, or smoke d1 xx bomb. I believe that it is not possible to interrupt these without making a read (which opens you up to getting hit by other things). Arguing about punishing a raw d1 on reaction is moot as I believe that is possible as well, so I don't think there is any discussion against it going on.
Yeah I think that is where the discrepancy came from tbh. I totally agree u dnt know what someone will do after u block their poke/normal. I was mainly saying that u can see all the things u block and react. U are only making a read on what they will do after. When I saw "u can't see a poke" I was confused and like " I can always see the poke I blocked).
 

Matix218

Get over here!
So basically the argument here comes down to how quickly the human brain can process information and react on a consistent basis. This guy is saying him and his friend essentially punish every blocked poke with a full combo on reaction and on the rare occasion they do miss they scold each other for it. 16 bit is saying that realistically you cannot truly react that quickly consistently due to the variables of the other options that you have to watch out for mixed with just natural delay of the human brain processing what has been seen so you are more often then not making an educated read and not truly reacting to what you blocked. It's that the crux of this argument?
 
So basically the argument here comes down to how quickly the human brain can process information and react on a consistent basis. This guy is saying him and his friend essentially punish every blocked poke with a full combo on reaction and on the rare occasion they do miss they scold each other for it. 16 bit is saying that realistically you cannot truly react that quickly consistently due to the variables of the other options that you have to watch out for mixed with just natural delay of the human brain processing what has been seen so you are more often then not making an educated read and not truly reacting to what you blocked. It's that the crux of this argument?
Hmm I believe so. This seems to be the discussion. Are u reacting when u block a poke and counter poke or making a read? Seems to be a bit of both tbh.