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Match-up Discussion Smoke mu chart mk9

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
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Official ESL Gaming
you do realise i played sonic a while back when wasnt as good as now and did fine .im not losing ft3 kl vs cage to anyome to be fair. and ill say from rooftops i aint losing to any kabal in the world thats one of my fav match ups lol . we played yonks ago too dont u remember keep spinning me after ex fbs and i try f3 ur spin kept hitting? kept saying why you keep doing that and getting away with itlol was long time ago though. just dont see kl or kabal as threat only sonya really to be fair is the mu id hate
I've beat Forever King, PL, Curbo and a bunch of other US players online over the years, that doesn't necessarily mean I'd beat them at EVO or at an offline event. I kinda feel like you're putting your foot in it here man.

Also, worth mentioning, Denzell didn't make it out of his pools either in 2012. But he then won EVO the following year. I got cornered as Sektor vs Cage in the final round, so that was pretty much GG. EVO is always unpredictable, and I lamped with a matchup I hate.

Also, many people don't know this, but I made a Kitana player so mad in that tournament that he ragequit in real life. That was epic.
 
16 bit and dizzy had it right, pokes animations are too fast and recover far too quickly to be able punish them on the fly. pokes are only punished on reads or by accident occasionally, no one has the ability to react that fast. and @xarakamaka I figured you would have learned your lesson by now after trying this same thing in a thread on MKU a while back. then MyGod came in and blew you up for having poor fundamentals or something along the lines of it. you've been calling yourself the best for a loooooong time now, yet no one else seems to thinks so. aside from maybe your sparring partner, and im gonna guess you think he is the best with his respective characters.... lol
see GET YOUR FACTS first off i like mygod and respect. second time on this thread i posted this . we were enemies and chatting crap on forum to each other . i then asked to join c88 months later . had to play ft5 vs him and won and got into the A squad straight after . i like mygod and you dno what your talking about
 
bird lao i played vs chris 1000s of times foxy with cage . chris bird lao is extremly good dude and vs my scarlett and my smoke your talking about yes id lose im not gna beat bird lao with them but i can handle bird lao extremely well i know this mu like mustard and ketchup do with each others characters. i played this mu more than anyone probably so please dnt say its my weakness your talking about when i didnt even use frame data correct :) , ill get xbox around feb 20 we'll run sets like i tried for ages.
Actually I'm talking your greatest weakness, bird Lao.

Regardless, being good in mk9 is such a null skill now, when the competition fades away of course you're going to look better.

Like I said wait for MKX, your understanding of the poke game will be really far behind because you missed out on injustice and the mechanics that both injustice an MKX will share.

Mk9s poke game is pretty straight forward with minimal options, it doesn't take a lot to understand it.
 
yeh ok im not 100% gna win cos of lots of circumstances but as a whole player i feel ahead but. eg opponent goes hidden select choses sonya i chose smoke for example .yeh gna be hard from that point and depends on the day and ft3 can go wrong quickly yeh
I've beat Forever King, PL, Curbo and a bunch of other US players online over the years, that doesn't necessarily mean I'd beat them at EVO or at an offline event. I kinda feel like you're putting your foot in it here man.

Also, worth mentioning, Denzell didn't make it out of his pools either in 2012. But he then won EVO the following year. I got cornered as Sektor vs Cage in the final round, so that was pretty much GG. EVO is always unpredictable, and I lamped with a matchup I hate.

Also, many people don't know this, but I made a Kitana player so mad in that tournament that he ragequit in real life. That was epic.
 
i should win a priz for most drama on one thread haha but on a plus of it all i got some top players have a good discussion between them
Just got through all 15 pages of this and all i have to say is i almost had a bloody brain aneurysm. I could probably compare it to watching a group neanderthols throw rocks at a wall and wonder why it isn't talking back. I mean seriously can people read and take in information? Or do some people just read a wall of text and shape what they think was said straight into their probably disconnected brain stem?

Anyway. I waded through 15 pages of this and i should have given up at the 1st. Have a good day everyone and as @trustinme would say enjoy yourselves!
 
16 bit and dizzy had it right, pokes animations are too fast and recover far too quickly to be able punish them on the fly. pokes are only punished on reads or by accident occasionally, no one has the ability to react that fast. and @xarakamaka I figured you would have learned your lesson by now after trying this same thing in a thread on MKU a while back. then MyGod came in and blew you up for having poor fundamentals or something along the lines of it. you've been calling yourself the best for a loooooong time now, yet no one else seems to thinks so. aside from maybe your sparring partner, and im gonna guess you think he is the best with his respective characters.... lol
Actually no they didn't lol, u can punish pokes lol it ain't an accident. The only read comes from if it can be special cancelled safely (which d1s typically can't and d3s are iffy/ d4 work to special cancel safely tho). I dnt know where this rational came from where u can't see something lol, SF players see 3 frame moves and deal with those, no way I can't see a 6 frame move and react.
Edit: We were pretty much talking about the same thing but in different ways and that has been settled so no point even bringing it up now.
 

bettyswallaux

XBOXLive: BettySwallaux
I'm confused man @xarakamaka your a really cool dude and honestly one of the best players I've played on MK9 even a year ago but you seem to be launching a full scale assault here for no reason, even if your 100% correct on literally everything you just said it doesn't mean you should be blatently rude to people man, just chill. Its not worth getting stressed out about and annoying people that your going to be meeting at tournaments. Just prove yourself there and not on a forum man cos I know you got the talent to do well :). But your leaving yourself at a disadvantage by being rude lol.
 
im rude when not heard or answering my questions and ppl come in and attack . it started off talkin bout waffles poke game and turns out after all this im right anyway lol read back i reply and rude when ppl call me out or get involved like who are you etc . thing is people arent psychic and dont know what i can do cos never seen it that level . if someone i never heard of started shouting out like that id be same as how they reacted so yeh . guess only ppl who know me well on xbl know and agree about me and guess important thing is that i know what i can do i guess :). its over now anyway and only place i want to proove is in usa but wont happen so ah well :) .
I'm confused man @xarakamaka your a really cool dude and honestly one of the best players I've played on MK9 even a year ago but you seem to be launching a full scale assault here for no reason, even if your 100% correct on literally everything you just said it doesn't mean you should be blatently rude to people man, just chill. Its not worth getting stressed out about and annoying people that your going to be meeting at tournaments. Just prove yourself there and not on a forum man cos I know you got the talent to do well :). But your leaving yourself at a disadvantage by being rude lol.
 

bettyswallaux

XBOXLive: BettySwallaux
im rude when not heard or answering my questions and ppl come in and attack . it started off talkin bout waffles poke game and turns out after all this im right anyway lol read back i reply and rude when ppl call me out or get involved like who are you etc . thing is people are psychic and if someone i never heard of started shouting out like that id be same as how they reacted so yeh . guess only ppl who know me well on xbl know and agree about me and guess important thing is that i know what i can do i guess :). its over now anyway and only place i want to proove is in usa but wont happen so ah well :) .
I ain't showing you any disrespect man I told you ages ago your one of the best players I've played man, so is Chris, it's just some times its better to just keep quiet because some arguments are unwinnable and you don't wanna lose friends over them that's all. Good luck in future tournaments for MK X anyway man I think if you put the work in like you did with MK9 you'll do really really good :)
 

The_REAL_xVAPORx

smoke reset bot
Actually no they didn't lol, u can punish pokes lol it ain't an accident. The only read comes from if it can be special cancelled safely (which d1s typically can't and d3s are iffy/ d4 work to special cancel safely tho). I dnt know where this rational came from where u can't see something lol, SF players see 3 frame moves and deal with those, no way I can't see a 6 frame move and react.
Edit: We were pretty much talking about the same thing but in different ways and that has been settled so no point even bringing it up now.
lol same scenario here, D1s can absolutely be punished on reaction, but you aren't reacting to having blocked a poke, you are expecting the poke and are reacting to anything coming out hoping its the poke. theres no way in hell you are stuck in cage pressure and are expecting a f3 or 21 just to block a d3 and standing punish it instantaneously, you have to be looking for it. but as was mentioned, its difficult for everyone to grasp whats being argued here, but im sure we are on the same page.
 
lol same scenario here, D1s can absolutely be punished on reaction, but you aren't reacting to having blocked a poke, you are expecting the poke and are reacting to anything coming out hoping its the poke. theres no way in hell you are stuck in cage pressure and are expecting a f3 or 21 just to block a d3 and standing punish it instantaneously, you have to be looking for it. but as was mentioned, its difficult for everyone to grasp whats being argued here, but im sure we are on the same page.
I am reacting to blocking a poke..... But OK lol.
Edit: all moves have an animation that can clearly be seen, this is the same in all fighting games. If I dnt poke after blocking a f3 it isn't because I didn't see it, it could be that I dnt want him to block my counterpoke and start pressure again/ I am waiting for him to do something else/ and etc. Like I said before, watch DJT and his evo 2013 vidoes and u will see what I am talking about. There is a reason he was able to deal with kabal so well, and guessing and auto pilot reactions were not that reason. You obviously make reads/ guesses within a match, but blocking a poke can always be seen.
 
What field day are u speaking of? Lol because I mean exactly what I an saying. There isn't a guess with a move u can see lol. I think what people are getting wrong is they think I am saying "I know what poke they are going to do". I never said that, but I can block a poke and see what I blocked and go from there. But clearly I dnt know what I am talking about lol this is getting funny now.
Edit: the smoke discussion with his b2 is also involved with his d4 and the mixup of the overhead or low. I am not talking about an overhead or low mixup, I am talking about a poke........
Edit 2: We can do this all day lol. But me and dizzy already agreed that there are different theories on what happens after blocking a something. We agreed u can definitely ready to a minus poke and counter.
 
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zaf

professor
What field day are u speaking of? Lol because I mean exactly what I an saying. There isn't a guess with a move u can see lol. I think what people are getting wrong is they think I am saying "I know what poke they are going to do". I never said that, but I can block a poke and see what I blocked and go from there. But clearly I dnt know what I am talking about lol this is getting funny now.
Edit: the smoke discussion with his b2 is also involved with his d4 and the mixup of the overhead or low. I am not talking about an overhead or low mixup, I am talking about a poke........
Edit 2: We can do this all day lol. But me and dizzy already agreed that there are different theories on what happens after blocking a something. We agreed u can definitely ready to a minus poke and counter.
I mean nothing by my post.
I think I was reading it as you thought... "I know what poke they are going to do" and react.
because I am in agreement with you. so just ignore my post from before.
 
Going off of pure mathematics and ideal scenario/recognition, Kitana's D1 can be punished on reaction. Below is the math and explanation:

D1 Start-Up is 6 frames. We don't have active frames to my knowledge, so I'll assume 2, then Kitana is -15. That's a total 23 frames. To really drive this home, if you are godlike and beginning having your reaction on frame 1 of Kitana's D1, it's a 23 frame reaction.

Almost all fighting games (save some weird examples) run at 60 frames per second. Milliseconds are exactly what it sounds like and there are 1,000 of them in a single second. With that, if you take 1,000 (milliseconds)/60 (frames), you'll find that each frame in a fighting game represents 16.67 milliseconds.

So, if we look at the 23 frame perfect reaction to a Kitana D1, and view it in milliseconds, it's 383ms. Keep in mind that this is the last possible moment a punish would connect, at 384ms, Kitana would block, therefore it not being punished.

Now, the most important thing is the startup on the punishing move. 6 being the fastest startup in the game (Smoke D1 counterpoke), with 9 being more like a full combo punish startup move (Smoke 21xSB punish). This gets us to whether it can be punished, here's that info:

D1 Counterpoke - 23 Frame Rection on Kitana D1 = 383ms, but in order to connect that attack we would need to have started the D1 counterpoke earlier in order for it to punish. At 6 frames, we would need to start the punish 100ms sooner, in order for the 1st active frame of Smoke's D1 to contact Kitana at 383ms, so that's 283ms to react.

21xSB Punish - 23 Frame Rection on Kitana D1 = 383ms, but in order to connect that attack we would need to have started the 21xSB earlier in order for it to punish. At 9 frames, we would need to start the punish 150ms sooner, in order for the 1st active frame of Smoke's 2 to contact Kitana at 383ms, so that's 233ms to react.

So, in summary, punishing Kitana's D1 with a Smoke D1 would give you 283ms to react and punishing with 21xSB would give you 233ms to react. Now that we have that, we need human reaction time, which we'll use the following site for info:

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

We can see here the average reaction time is around 250ms. Things to keep in mind about this website and these results:

1) People are staring at a bright red box waiting for it to turn bright green. Recognition here is insanely easy and expected as you are taking a reaction test.

2) The argument in this thread is 100% reacting and punishing--people taking this test can anticipate and click early (failing) until they get it right to lower their results.

With that said, if this thread is about dick swinging, carry on, but if it's not, take the test 10 times. If you prematurely click any of the 10 test sets, disregard the result. Take your average of your 10 tests that were 100% non-premature clicks and average your results.

Even if your results come out to <233ms, it's still a bright red box turning green, which is obvious when compared to identifying an animation in a fighting game.

Kitana D1s get punished in the same way that throws get teched--there is contextual information being used to anticipate the occurrence so an ideal reaction can be had. 100% punishing a blocked D1, no matter how random it is, I think is almost impossible. Again, the key here being 100% reaction, not I punish it sometimes. Also, the move used to punish is a huge factor as the quicker the startup, the more time you have to react and press the button.

TLDR: Human reaction 100% of the time to a blocked Kitana D1, while technically possible, is highly unlikely without anticipation/context information. This is where mixups come into play and can hinder you from reacting frame perfect 1 on the D1.