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Match-up Discussion Smoke Match-Up Discussion Thread (2012 Post-EVO Update)

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
I am not sure. I personally have that match as a 5-5after all I've played with Moe
Haha ya, Moe definitely skews the MU numbers and he is so much fun to play. Pretty much everytime I lose against him I am just outplayed and still feel like I have the better tools TBH. He wins every freaking air-air trade I feel like...
 

Owerbart

I miss you
Yep, force push can be pretty annoying in this MU, and it is a great tool... but what happens when I stand at the end of your push range and you throw one out, whiff, and I punish it with Smoke bomb? A mistake like that can cost you more than half your life bar and you would have to come in and take major risks to do so. Also it is not too difficult to escape Ermac pressure and his specials are pretty negative on block. With this said I just think it is a 6-4 in Smoke's favor so it isn't a monster disadvantage.

Also in general Smoke's oki game is better and Ermac can't rely on getting any chip with his projectile since Smoke can just sit and shake them at full screen.
Good Ermac players know the true distance of TKP and calculate back dashes. As you say Ermac may whiff the TKP (which indeed it's like lights out against smoke) what if you misread and throw a smokebomb when you should'nt? then, you are are also eating half your life. Ermac has no problems getting the space he needs and there's no smoke away-forwards because most of the time TKP beats em.
 

HD Smoke

Noob
I think Smoke is a tough MU for Sektor. All the good ones I have played struggle to win in that MU. I can't see Sonya being 7-3 because that would scare me to think of what Kabal/Kung Lao are because I personally feel those 2 characters are way more of a problem. Sonya at least has to guess on the way in and risk eating a combo where as Kabal can dash to get right in your face and pressure you whenever he wants to. Maybe the LK MU is unexplored a bit, but I still think that is pretty even and I would be surprised to see it shift definitively in one direction or the other.
Sektor has many tools to make the MU even IMO especially being able to blow up SB and stuff standing 2 AA into a full Jump kick combo. Sonya has got to be 7-3 she shuts down almost all of his tools when up close. I agree how bad kabal and kl are. Kl is a winnable match that's probably 7-3 or 6-4. Kabal could easily be 8-2 and not a lot of people want to admit it. You have no options in this MU except to guess lucky and wait for kabal to screw up. And if xblades and wafflez grind out the LK MU I bet wafflez will see it being in Kangs favor easily. The more and more Smoke gets explored and opened up the more people will see he is not taking majors anytime soon. It's a blessing if he even gets top 8
 

HD Smoke

Noob
Can someone explain why Ermac has any sort of disadvantage in this MU? Ermac doesn't need to do anything besides blocking. He can just lame you out with TKPs and eventually Smoke realizes he has to get in because smoke bombs don't do chip damage. TKP from max or even 3/4 range gets away. Even from upclose I don't think anyone of them has an advantage. They'll both try to do their best to mix up their neutral strings.
I think it's slightly in ermacs favor. If the ermac players knows when to poke back and knows when to TKP than Smoke is in trouble. Plus with Smokes huge hitbox it's not that hard for ermac to pressure Smoke! Zaf and Seven tore through KT Smith. I've had great matches with seven before but it always seems I'm fighting his game since ermac has better spacing and range
 

HD Smoke

Noob
Good lord HD Smoke needs to be sent to downplayers death row. Just stop. The "Smoke is free to rushdown" talking point is outdated by almost a year.
Lol but it's the truth. Cage, Lao, Kabal, Kang, Sonya, And Jax all give Smoke problems. It's annoying for Smoke. Now that people are finally learning to stuff b2 and never block low Smokes having more trouble at high level. It depends on a players style. You 16 bit have amazing footsies and poking that's why you and wafflez have such great games. Your without a doubt the best kitana period but your play style is what Smoke as a character is great at. What beats Smoke is crazy aggressive rushdown and not letting him breath. Players like Chris G, Perfect legend, Tyrant blow up smokes because of the crazy style they have. However that's why the lose to cage players and you blow up cages. Some people just know how to fight certain characters themselves because of the style. I knew wafflez would beat CDJR because CDjr is probably the best footsies player period. That's what Smoke excels at. Learn when to deal with that and Smoke isn't the terror some think he is.
 

HD Smoke

Noob
HD Smoke do you play on xbox or psn?

Even I cannot downplay this character more than you. My god.
Xbox. I have no clients Thursday playing some Smoke mirrors would be tight. Ill hit you up. Lol I don't downplay him I'm just honest at where he sits. 10-12th because of how bad he loses his bad MU's I even think KL isn't as bad as Sonya and Cage. Smoke is good it's just once a player figures out where he is strong than exposes smokes weak points it's really not much Smoke has left. He's way too limit with predictable strings and very few of them. Even CDjr finally saw how bad smoke can struggle.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Ermac isnt that bad, his long grab range becomes a threat when he stands at punishable smoke bomb distance and lames you out. Full screen you can trade with force push with a smoke bomb, dont know if you can combo off it though, still a good way to get in though (bring ermac to you?)

6-4 to Smoke. Ermac has to spend meter to get good damage, has to be unsafe to wake up and hasnt got much of a game outside of hovering around your d4 range and lifting you if you wiff, where as smoke can trouble him with his lack of fast strings, oki game, and pure damage output.


Sektor is 6-4 Smoke too. Is even at the top level, sektor has a really good pressure game, his oki is fantastic as smokes got no armour, missile traps bait shakes and create a telepunch mixup for sektor, can punish smokebombs on block. his fast normals keep smoke honest when pressuring, but again he can get beaten by shakes, whiffing issues, and smokes pure damage output. If sektor didnt have to spend his meter on breakers due to the reset, this would be 5-5 as close to the wire as it can get.
 
You need to understand that you don't need to beat somebody outright with an option for it to be useful. condition then to respect teleport punch, and you get up for free with a smoke away. Condition them to respect an EX shake, and you get a free blocked OTG d3 to put you at enough advantage to either start up a counter offense, or poke~smoke away for space. Once you get them blocking on your wake-up, you've successfully escape their oki for free. This is day 1 shit man. Smoke doesn't have herp derp easy tools to get up with for free, so what? Neither does anyone else given a good read.

You know how Smoke beats out heavy rushdown? fucking footsie through it. You can't just run away all day, you have to get in there sometimes. Anyone mindlessly rushing smoke down is going to get caught with a d1~sb at some point and reset for 70%, or lose all their meter instead to reset the situation. You need to make people respect all these things that you can do to them, because once you do you can play a more footsie and yomi based game instead of constantly mashing smoke away and wondering why you're eating jump in punch combos every time you wake up.

Just walk and/or dash back and forth, get moves to whiff, punish jump ins, try to read advancing specials. All you can really do. Never backdash~b2 in footsies unless you are absolutely sure you're going to time it right for their move to whiff and your b2 to hit... smoke's hurtbox moves forward a lot sooner and farther than the hitbox of b2 so you're going to get blown up trying that. smoke bomb is your friend

For those that don't respect you and rush you down hard? GREAT! You want them to do that! poke them to your heart's content until they block moar! Then you get free d4s into pressure and/or throws all day! yay free damage! yay life leads! yay best runaway tools in the whole game!

Play lame my son
But know when to get in there and keep the fear of 70% combos in their heads
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Sektor has many tools to make the MU even IMO especially being able to blow up SB and stuff standing 2 AA into a full Jump kick combo. Sonya has got to be 7-3 she shuts down almost all of his tools when up close. I agree how bad kabal and kl are. Kl is a winnable match that's probably 7-3 or 6-4. Kabal could easily be 8-2 and not a lot of people want to admit it. You have no options in this MU except to guess lucky and wait for kabal to screw up. And if xblades and wafflez grind out the LK MU I bet wafflez will see it being in Kangs favor easily. The more and more Smoke gets explored and opened up the more people will see he is not taking majors anytime soon. It's a blessing if he even gets top 8
I mean Sektor is taking huge risks by trying to blow up standing 2 anti-airs because if Smoke blocks and punishes the tele-port Sektor is screwed. Sektor can't zone, yes he has a 6 frame jab but just don't throw a SB up close... LBSH Smoke wins this MU
 

Flagg

Noob
I think Baraka would be even without the reset, imo. Because of the reset I can definitely agree with 4-6.
A Smoke can be really lame and literally beat Baraka from full screen and just smoke teleport away once he is in.

Really frustratingly hard match for BA Barakas!

Though I think CSZ vs Smoke is more even that advantage to Smoke...
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
A Smoke can be really lame and literally beat Baraka from full screen and just smoke teleport away once he is in.

Really frustratingly hard match for BA Barakas!

Though I think CSZ vs Smoke is more even that advantage to Smoke...
Yeah, I think CSZ is actually not too bad against Smoke. It might be 5-5 maybe 6-4 because of the damage. And ya, you have to play Baraka super lame, blade charge is great in that MU though.
 

Flagg

Noob
Yeah, I think CSZ is actually not too bad against Smoke. It might be 5-5 maybe 6-4 because of the damage. And ya, you have to play Baraka super lame, blade charge is great in that MU though.
Well Smoke has no low starters, so ice parry is really good here, plus CSZ own rushdown is pretty decent. You can divekick over smoke bombs on reaction, however, a whiffed or missed slide will get CSZ blown way, WAY up. Ice ball is practically useless in this match up.

Baraka can only ex blade charge for so long. I haven't used Ermac in a while, but I remember Smoke being a handful for him as well.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Well Smoke has no low starters, so ice parry is really good here, plus CSZ own rushdown is pretty decent. You can divekick over smoke bombs on reaction, however, a whiffed or missed divekick will get CSZ blown way, WAY up. Ice ball is practically useless in this match up.

Baraka can only ex blade charge for so long. I haven't used Ermac in a while, but I remember Smoke being a handful for him as well.
Yep, that is what makes the fight tough against a really good CSZ. Usually I can get a pretty good read on when CSZ's like to do their parry and bait it out.
 

Owerbart

I miss you
Ermac isnt that bad, his long grab range becomes a threat when he stands at punishable smoke bomb distance and lames you out. Full screen you can trade with force push with a smoke bomb, dont know if you can combo off it though, still a good way to get in though (bring ermac to you?)

6-4 to Smoke. Ermac has to spend meter to get good damage, has to be unsafe to wake up and hasnt got much of a game outside of hovering around your d4 range and lifting you if you wiff, where as smoke can trouble him with his lack of fast strings, oki game, and pure damage output.


Sektor is 6-4 Smoke too. Is even at the top level, sektor has a really good pressure game, his oki is fantastic as smokes got no armour, missile traps bait shakes and create a telepunch mixup for sektor, can punish smokebombs on block. his fast normals keep smoke honest when pressuring, but again he can get beaten by shakes, whiffing issues, and smokes pure damage output. If sektor didnt have to spend his meter on breakers due to the reset, this would be 5-5 as close to the wire as it can get.
wat.jpg Also, from fullscreen only an idiot would throw a TKP. Ermac doesn't need to be unsafe neither.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Well Smoke has no low starters, so ice parry is really good here, plus CSZ own rushdown is pretty decent. You can divekick over smoke bombs on reaction, however, a whiffed or missed slide will get CSZ blown way, WAY up. Ice ball is practically useless in this match up.

Baraka can only ex blade charge for so long. I haven't used Ermac in a while, but I remember Smoke being a handful for him as well.
Once you get in blade charge range you can punish every smoke bomb you see. I wouldnt even uses EX blade charge, I would save meter for breaker.

If the smoke keeps poking you to death block one, back dash and play your footsie game from there(he can't punish max ranged blade charge)

Spin smoke away/towards and whiffed teleports, learn his frame data and when to poke out of his pressure(of course you have to be careful cause of b2)

It really is not bad except the reset makes one mistake equal death(assuming the smoke can do resets)
 
Smoke CSZ is even... CSZ controls the air and smoke has trouble dealing with characters with good air control in a form other than iaf. I need some serious work on that matchup, but then again who plays that guy besides Soonk, Pig, Reo, and glue?
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Smoke CSZ is even... CSZ controls the air and smoke has trouble dealing with characters with good air control in a form other than iaf. I need some serious work on that matchup, but then again who plays that guy besides Soonk, Pig, Reo, and glue?
Ya, the CSZ fight is pretty awkward and uncomfortable against really good ones. I've played a few really good ones online (long ass time ago), and remember it being way easier with Cage.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Ya, the CSZ fight is pretty awkward and uncomfortable against really good ones. I've played a few really good ones online (long ass time ago), and remember it being way easier with Cage.
What isnt way easier with cage, except kenshi perhaps?
 
Can anyone get into the details on why Quan is only 6-4? Quan doesn't really have many options against Smoke--just curious why it isn't 7-3 or maybe even worse at the highest level of play.

Smoke can abuse D1 and SB--poking out is risky, mixing up is risky, and trying to trade trance is suicide.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
What isnt way easier with cage, except kenshi perhaps?
hah, ya and Freddy. Normally though as you go lower in the tier list though Smoke can really do whatever he wants a lot of the time but it isn't that way with CSZ.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
hah, ya and Freddy. Normally though as you go lower in the tier list though Smoke can really do whatever he wants a lot of the time but it isn't that way with CSZ.
Standing 2 him out of divekicks though, his ice bombs are shit and your wakeups will avoid his setups into them. Turtle him and sit on life leads, he really doesnt have that many ways to open you up, if your getting hit by ice parries its because you are playing recklessly and not using staggered strings into grabs enough. 3d1 grab is nice in this one.