Match-up Discussion Smoke Match-Up Discussion Thread (2012 Post-EVO Update)

[RiBBz22]

From KT Smith. I know the post is from a while ago, but I still think this holds true today:

"One of the things I dislike most about this match up is that Smoke is one of the only characters in the game with nothing to put on screen to occupy space and prevent Kabal from checking him with a nomad dash from ANYWHERE. SB can sometimes pull Kabal out of ND start up, but it loses for full combo if you try to do it on reaction. Once he ND'es at you, you HAVE to guess whether he's going to commit or not. That sucks; He can force you to guess whenever he wants from anywhere on screen. My only advice here is to 1: play him up close so he can't check you, or 2: dash forward or back to mess with his spacing. Specifically, dashing forward and blocking to try and get him to bounce off you, or dashing back in an attempt to get something to whiff and punish it. Invis is your friend here."

 

[RiBBz22]

play emp scar

I tried before and he declined my invite. I will have to try him again.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

smoke blows up sub zero in a couple of ways... he makes his ice clone almost irrelevant w/ smoke bomb and smoke port (goes right through), can full punish ice clone on wake up or after 214, and breaks sub's amazing corner game with a simple <- -> 3. sub never has the advantage in this mu cause he can't chase down or run away in a sufficient manner.

Random smoke bombs just blow up SZ... and allow you to approach how you please. The SB itself makes SZ have to respect EVERY option you have at all spaces...

this probably is an 8-2 for us mortals

 

[GGA HAN]

Oh my, Thomas, how you've matured as a player and become a smart, edumicated smoke player! (is that possible?) I think you may be released from downplayers prison soon. Good stuff, but I would change Kabal to 3-7 if you haven't already.

 

[GGA Wafflez]

Oh my, Thomas, how you've matured as a player and become a smart, edumicated smoke player! (is that possible?) I think you may be released from downplayers prison soon. Good stuff, but I would change Kabal to 3-7 if you haven't already.

i will put 3-7 if i want to get crucified, but i enjoy life

 

[SZSR]

From KT Smith. I know the post is from a while ago, but I still think this holds true today:

"One of the things I dislike most about this match up is that Smoke is one of the only characters in the game with nothing to put on screen to occupy space and prevent Kabal from checking him with a nomad dash from ANYWHERE. SB can sometimes pull Kabal out of ND start up, but it loses for full combo if you try to do it on reaction. Once he ND'es at you, you HAVE to guess whether he's going to commit or not. That sucks; He can force you to guess whenever he wants from anywhere on screen. My only advice here is to 1: play him up close so he can't check you, or 2: dash forward or back to mess with his spacing. Specifically, dashing forward and blocking to try and get him to bounce off you, or dashing back in an attempt to get something to whiff and punish it. Invis is your friend here."

Agreed. And when Kabal rushes in, Smoke's only ways to get out of pressure is guessing right or poking out and Smoke can be checked for all his options against for Kabal. This is where toolset for toolset, Smoke is disadvantaged.

 

[GGA HAN]

i will put 3-7 if i want to get crucified, but i enjoy life

nah you're good, I think soonk is done downplaying his broke-ass character for good now.

 

[RiBBz22]

Agreed. And when Kabal rushes in, Smoke's only ways to get out of pressure is guessing right or poking out and Smoke can be checked for all his options against for Kabal. This is where toolset for toolset, Smoke is disadvantaged.

Some people will never be able to get over that when they see Smoke they see a huge damaging combo. Which I do definitely understand to a point. I want someone to convince me about these MU's without the damage argument factored in, I honestly do because I want the MU's to be closer to even.

 

[16 Bit]

Some people will never be able to get over that when they see Smoke they see a huge damaging combo. Which I do definitely understand to a point. I want someone to convince me about these MU's without the damage argument factored in, I honestly do because I want the MU's to be closer to even.

That makes no sense. It's a game changing factor, you can't just pretend it doesn't exist. No one is doing Kitana MU numbers where we ignore 2,1 and jk~fan.

 

[SZSR]

Some people will never be able to get over that when they see Smoke they see a huge damaging combo. Which I do definitely understand to a point. I want someone to convince me about these MU's without the damage argument factored in, I honestly do because I want the MU's to be closer to even.

To be honest though, we do need to take that into account. Some matches, I believe like Baraka, Rain, Kitana, Nightwolf and Sindel would not be the way they are without the reset.

But I do agree that in matches where he's so limited in options to get his momentum going (Sonya, Cage, Kabal especially), you can't really depend on the reset as your comeback factor. Unlike Cyrax, he really doesn't have a "Get out of Jail Free" card when being pressured.

 

[M2Dave]

6-4 vs Freddy Krueger

Fuck you.

 

[GGA HAN]

To be honest though, we do need to take that into account. Some matches, I believe like Baraka, Rain, Kitana, Nightwolf and Sindel would not be the way they are without the reset.

But I do agree that in matches where he's so limited in options to get his momentum going (Sonya, Cage, Kabal especially), you can't really depend on the reset as your comeback factor. Unlike Cyrax, he really doesn't have a "Get out of Jail Free" card when being pressured.

What get out of jail card do you speak of that cyrax has?

 

[RiBBz22]

That makes no sense. It's a game changing factor, you can't just pretend it doesn't exist. No one is doing Kitana MU numbers where we ignore 2,1 and jk~fan.

I think you are misinterpreting my point. What I am trying to say is I would just like to hear other arguments besides the damage one, just to hear some other ideas of where Smoke can give Kabal problems.

If we agree that if Kabal screwing up is the only way for Smoke to not get bodied in this MU then I can accept that. I do understand that Smoke can win the match on potentially a few mistakes and I am not ignoring that...I am simply saying that I have heard no other arguments besides this and I would really like to hear one, that's all.

The dash really gives Smoke problems since Kabal does not need to even use the EX and use meter to get through Smoke's projectile. Because of this Kabal will most likely have no trouble having meter for breakers at key moments of the match.

 

[SZSR]

What get out of jail card do you speak of that cyrax has?

I didn't mean it like that. When Smoke's in pressure(especially against the wall), he's pretty stuck with very predictable options (Smoke Away and En Shake). Cyrax has a little bit of an easier time to get things started with things like his AA throw and EX ragdoll, especially on Wakeup. EX ragdoll also let's you start up your own offensive and get your own momentum started. When Smoke smokes away, he's pretty much at "well back to the spacing game". He just waits to force situations where the opponent messes up and he can cash in on it.

 

[Zoidberg747]

To be honest though, we do need to take that into account. Some matches, I believe like Baraka, Rain, Kitana, Nightwolf and Sindel would not be the way they are without the reset.

But I do agree that in matches where he's so limited in options to get his momentum going (Sonya, Cage, Kabal especially), you can't really depend on the reset as your comeback factor. Unlike Cyrax, he really doesn't have a "Get out of Jail Free" card when being pressured.

I think Baraka would be even without the reset, imo. Because of the reset I can definitely agree with 4-6.

 

[SZSR]

I think Baraka would be even without the reset, imo. Because of the reset I can definitely agree with 4-6.

Exactly.

 

[FrothyOmen]

Disappointing that Wafflez skews his opinion on matchup numbers to avoid crucifixion from his own teammates.

 

[16 Bit]

Disappointing that Wafflez skews his opinion on matchup numbers to avoid crucifixion from his own teammates.

We're just guiding him towards the truth.

 

[RiBBz22]

We're just guiding him towards the truth.

95% Wafflez MU chart, 5% 16-Bit

 

[GGA Wafflez]

ok, it seems that there is still some confusion as to why the smoke-cage MU is still arguably 4-6 cage. over time, we developed strategies against cage, like using d3 to get out of pressure, and s2 to help stop him from getting in. people forget that cage players also level up... they dont just rely on old tactics that worked in march... cage beats smoke...
- due to his ability to make smoke bomb less relevant that in other matches with an aggressive dash and ability to punish
- because smoke has no armor (yes... this matters... d3 smoke away is GOOD, BUT you still have to guess the f3, f33 mixup and the smoke away A. brings you closer to the corner and B. resets a situation where you are on the defensive, forced to make a read on a jump in or f3.
- cage's invincible nut punch.

i think these three reasons are mainly why smoke losses this match. though smoke has damage, it requires him to hit johnny cage with a 15 frame move, that gets beat by f3 and b3 easily, and when blocked you are neutral and forced to d3 (if you're on p1 side). smoke gets most of his damage off of anti airs and d4/throws imo, as players will not be blocking low often. what do you guys think?

 

[xSMoKEx]

Wafflez i agree. Cage does too much chip once he's in as well. Even if he does eat 10 sb's while moving in (lol ya right) the chip he deals makes it all worth it, and lbsh he'll hit you with a combo here and there and build enough meter back to red kick you in the face occasionally. 6-4 Cage i agree.

and lbsh Kitty and Freddy both 6-4 ;_; Those really on the same tier of good MU's...?

 

[RiBBz22]

ok, it seems that there is still some confusion as to why the smoke-cage MU is still arguably 4-6 cage. over time, we developed strategies against cage, like using d3 to get out of pressure, and s2 to help stop him from getting in. people forget that cage players also level up... they dont just rely on old tactics that worked in march... cage beats smoke...
- due to his ability to make smoke bomb less relevant that in other matches with an aggressive dash and ability to punish
- because smoke has no armor (yes... this matters... d3 smoke away is GOOD, BUT you still have to guess the f3, f33 mixup and the smoke away A. brings you closer to the corner and B. resets a situation where you are on the defensive, forced to make a read on a jump in or f3.
- cage's invincible nut punch.

i think these three reasons are mainly why smoke losses this match. though smoke has damage, it requires him to hit johnny cage with a 15 frame move, that gets beat by f3 and b3 easily, and when blocked you are neutral and forced to d3 (if you're on p1 side). smoke gets most of his damage off of anti airs and d4/throws imo, as players will not be blocking low often. what do you guys think?

With no armor and 11F1 being +3 on block, Smoke taking 1 combo ending in nut punch can be devastating. I play both characters and I feel that it is 6-4 in Cages favor while 16Bit believes this match is 9-1 advantage Smoke because of damage.

 

[xSMoKEx]

What do you all think of the Sonya match-up? I honestly think it horrid and feel it is probably worse than Kung Lao.

I've played Death both online sequentially over the past year or so and i had the honour to play him offline at T13, and he definitely won more than i did. I also play two other Sonya players online, one of which is @Khaotik. Now, why i think this MU is so bad?

D4~MS and Divekick makes our life hell. Her dash speed allows her to move in super fast and even if you do read a D4 and try to SB if she does a dashing D4 it will whiff. Smoke's damage isn't much of an issue in this match-up, she does 50% BnB off jip and 40% off of a DK. Her armor makes it literally impossible to pressure her, it's not like even if you block the armor you get anything good to follow it up with. (I.e Cage's F3) And because we don't have anything to armor back with she has ridiculous pressure options against him.

She really doesn't need to respect on hit after ANYTHING besides 2, D4 and d3 vs. crouch. She can divekick interrupt with a full combo punish, so the threat of Dk is always there. Things that normally are viable like D3, B2 get slapped in the face. Even a D3, 2 gets slapped in the face via divekick.

And the kicker: Any time she knocks you down she gets a free D4~MS. It blows up Smoke Away and towards, teleport whiffs because of her lowered hitbox.

Overall i think she has all the tools to make Smoke stop throwing out SB's (and building meter) from far with her DK and D4. She destroys him up close. Armor is a pain because Smoke has no quick mids to check her up even on block.

I may be wrong and i just need more MU xp and practice, but i just thought i'd see everyone elses opinion because this is personally my most hated MU. I'd rather fight Kabal than her any day of the week lol

 

[FrothyOmen]

I have no relevant opinions on this matchup. I don't think it's worse than Lao, but I've never played Death either.

 

[McNasty]

you can atleast still run away witha life lead from her and force mistakes using his spacing tools. This mu took me forever to win in. the key imo is theres a really fucked up spacing because her d4 extends past her foot and on a read(pretty easy since thats the center of her offense) where you can b2 it. Its not lao bad but a HARD 6-4 imo.