Match-up Discussion Smoke Match-Up Discussion Thread (2012 Post-EVO Update)

[Pig Of The Hut]

Sonya could beat smoke 7-3. Probably one of my favourite mus in mk9

Death can I please get u to correct your Canadian breathern Zaf ?

Read his nonsense above

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I've never said ermac beats kenshi.
I've always known and said that ermac loses kenshi. So this is irrelevant.

I've played smoke with matterovermind very recently.
His smoke is one of the best I have played and he did not take 1 game off me last time we played.
Would be cool if you came in here matt and explained how I played.
I've also played with jer a lot. He picked up smoke.
Jer tells me it is 6-4 for ermac or 5-5.
Some days when we played, I won more games. Some other days Jer blew me up. But that is really nothing to do with the MU itself.
There are days when Jer gets in my head and he just beats me more. There are days when I do the same. This happens when you play Mus with your training partner. However, even setting aside who wins more, we both can sit back for a moment and can tell which character has to work for the win. If he is outplaying me, that is just it. I'm being out played. Smoke is not winning, ermac is not losing. Jer is beating me.
I can agree with a 5-5 as well, I can sway that way. It does feel even for the most part.
Only reason I would say it is in ermac favour is because I personally feel smoke has to work more then ermac.
Yes smoke has resets, but he has to touch ermac first.

I was going very much even with ac1986 and lulzlou at SJ.

Not every Mu will be set in stone. Especially if you keep playing the game and discovering more.

MUs are not determined by playing those people is what I think WoundCowboy is trying to say


THIS just in Kenshi vs Lao is 7-3 Kenshi because I blew up skillful chris, shanxter , mk legend and jwong Kung Lao

 

[YOMI DJT]

smoke losing to ermac? I can't agree with that at all.
Smoke wins it.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

smoke losing to ermac? I can't agree with that at all.
Smoke wins it.

Woa woa woa

Who r u?

Not like u won Evo or anything...............oh wait nvm

 

[YOMI DJT]

Woa woa woa

Who r u?

Not like u won Evo or anything...............oh wait nvm

I just had to comment on that. No matter how many times the matchup is played. Smoke wins he ALWAYS wins vs ermac!!

 

[zaf]

MUs are not determined by playing those people is what I think WoundCowboy is trying to say


THIS just in Kenshi vs Lao is 7-3 Kenshi because I blew up skillful chris, shanxter , mk legend and jwong Kung Lao

How does matovermind not count? He has made top 8 at every Canadian major he attended as far as I am aware.
jer doesn't count either???

No need to be sarcastic, the first comment was enough to explain wound's reasoning.

smoke losing to ermac? I can't agree with that at all.
Smoke wins it.

Would you be able to tell me why you think this?

 

[YOMI DJT]

How does matovermind not count? He has made top 8 at every Canadian major he attended as far as I am aware.
jer doesn't count either???

No need to be sarcastic, the first comment was enough to explain wound's reasoning.


Would you be able to tell me why you think this?

I hate explaining matchups but whatever I still know a lot about MK. I still play it at a high lvl with my bro. I know a lot of characters.

This is a bad matchup for ermac but not that bad. Lets see force push is good but ermac can't trade with smoke. Its always a better trade for smoke.

Ermac just trying to be lame and block just wont get you the win.
Smoke is building more meter. He has b2, d4,d3, he can grab. Just because smoke has no chip, doesn't mean ermac wins it.
Smoke can slowly walk him down and corner ermac. Just blocking smoke bombs just doesn't seem like it will work at highest lvl.

Can smoke punish force push with tele? probably not.
Smoke holds the life lead better than ermac in my opinion.
Smoke has better footsies than mac in my opinion.
Smoke has better AA options than ermac.
Ermac has to be a lot more riskier to beat smoke in my opinion.

Nothing against any smoke player in Canada. But I think you need to play wafflez extensively to see why the matchup is in smoke's favor.

But yeah smoke wins it 6-4.
6-4 is really close because at the highest lvl it seems like a 5-5

 

[Matix218]

I think it is a 5-5 personally

 

[GGA HAN]

You got 2/2 of those MU numbers incorrect.

Kabal, Sonya, and Kung Lao 7-3 Smoke. I have never had it any other way. These 3 characters are Smoke's issues in MK9.



I used to be completely in the court of Smoke beating Cyrax, but he loses 6-4. Smoke has incredible tools against some of Cryax's options, but they are honestly options that Cyrax players don't even need to use in this MU. Cyrax rushdown and pressure are awesome in this MU. It is either 6-4 Rax or a 5-5.

Ok, I need to be sold on this bill of goods that Smoke really has any 3-7 MU's. Here's how I see both Cyrax and Smoke, in a nutshell, in MK9.

1) both have great d4's that lead to a guessing game massively in their favor where guessing wrong could cost you the round; point # 6. (command grab or 1,2 net into round critical damage for Cyrax vs Smoke who can d4 you again until infinity or he gets bored, throws you or b2,3 into round critical damage. There is more I could say on this point but these are the basics.)

2) both have the same speed standing normals used to full combo interrupt pressure from rushdown chars. that lead to # 6 (standing 2,1 into smoke bomb for smoke, 1,2 into net for Cyrax are both 9 frames)

3) both have 6 frame d1's that can cancel into specials for less risky poking out of pressure. (d1, buzzsaw for Cyrax vs d1 smoke-away. Cyrax's can be counter-poked by the highest level competition, Smoke's can NOT)

4) both have decent d3's (smoke's is def. better, its faster (7 frames vs 9 frames) and lowers his hitbox more than Cyrax's but can also be used for poking out of pressure or creating distance vs rushdown.

5) Awesome projectiles that lead to # 6 (net - takes up half the screen and is hard to avoid because of how slow it moves but full combo punishable by anyone when close vs smoke bomb - full screen check anywhere that you're holding block but is only punished by a few characters in the game when blocked up close.)

6) That damage.


Those are the characters basic tools I see. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of the Smoke data, pls.

How are these characters so different that they can have vastly different MU numbers vs Sonya and Kung Lao? I can see Kabal possibly being that bad, because he gives Cyrax a hard time, but Kung Lao and Sonya you have to sell me on.

Oh wait... I forgot: YOU CAN'T ZONE SMOKE. Which is half the reason Cyrax has "issues" with Kabal and Sonya. I used to think Sonya won that MU - she might but, it could also be even. Kabal def. beats Cyrax, but is it really a 3-7? Hard to say, at this point. Kabal hold all the cards, he controls the entire pace, but Cyrax can turn the whole round with one opportunity - but so can Smoke.


I'd love to hear your honest thoughts, everyone. Now the game is "dead" we can talk about MU's and not have our ego's on the line and leave downplaying at the door.

Thanks everyone that read this far without falling asleep...lol

 

[YOMI DJT]

I can also agree on 5-5 for smoke but idk. It just seems more like a smoke favorable matchup. Me and my bro played that matchup a lot probably doesn't mean a lot.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

Reading Han's post I can't believe I forgot how badly MK9 needed a patch. I am now depressed.

 

[zaf]

I hate explaining matchups but whatever I still know a lot about MK. I still play it at a high lvl with my bro. I know a lot of characters.

This is a bad matchup for ermac but not that bad. Lets see force push is good but ermac can't trade with smoke. Its always a better trade for smoke.

Ermac just trying to be lame and block just wont get you the win.
Smoke is building more meter. He has b2, d4,d3, he can grab. Just because smoke has no chip, doesn't mean ermac wins it.
Smoke can slowly walk him down and corner ermac. Just blocking smoke bombs just doesn't seem like it will work at highest lvl.

Can smoke punish force push with tele? probably not.
Smoke holds the life lead better than ermac in my opinion.
Smoke has better footsies than mac in my opinion.
Smoke has better AA options than ermac.
Ermac has to be a lot more riskier to beat smoke in my opinion.

Nothing against any smoke player in Canada. But I think you need to play wafflez extensively to see why the matchup is in smoke's favor.

But yeah smoke wins it 6-4.
6-4 is really close because at the highest lvl it seems like a 5-5

I can agree with a 5-5. I just do not feel it is in smokes favour.

Force push is good in this mu. You are right when saying that if a push and smokebomb trade smoke wins the favor as he can still combo.
However Push does get chip. Chip damage and throws ( because smoke might try to dash block in) is small damage but keeps adding up.
Smoke will build more meter, you are right about that. Ermac does do good damage, so if smoke does have meter and gets hit, he does need to break. Smoke might save his health, but meter is gone for resets. Smoke could not break and keep meter to hope to get a touch of death combo but that might be risky.

Ermac f2 makes smokebomb whiff, so that can be used in close enough ranges IF smokebomb is used. ( dont think anyone knew about that)
Ermac has a good d4 as well. +12 on hit. His d3 is also good at making his hitbox lower. You can use this to make b2 whiff at certain ranges. ( do not think anyone knew about that)

Smoke walking ermac to the corner can be countered with grabs, either one. Reverse to put smoke in the corner or forward to reset the spacing.
Smoke can not punish tkp at the ranges it will be used in. Smokebomb and teleport are both 19 frame start up.
Smoke probably has better footsies with b2 and d4.
Smoke port can be tkp'd. During the animation as well. Ex smokeport saves him.
I think they are both equal in terms of AA. Ermac standing 1 has a lot of range. Smoke has standing 2, which is an amazing AA. Smoke has a more reliable AA, but ermac AA has more range. That is why I believe it to be equal.

With all this being said, it is a very patient and defensive math on ermacs end. Most matches attempted to be won by time out or under 20 seconds remaining.

I say 6-4 because ermac can sit patiently and pick apart the smoke players approach. While slowly chipping at him and grabbing. I feel smoke has to do the work, but if he does touch ermac he is very rewarded.

I can agree with a 5-5 as well.
Blocking smokebombs all the time forces smoke to come to you, if at the start of the match you can get away.... you can start to chip at his health and make sure he has to go to ermac.

 

[GGA Wafflez]

once smoke gets in dash up d4/b2 range, or d4 range, what does ermac do? @gga, our ermac players just throw the shit outta u. idk how canada does it

 

[zaf]

once smoke gets in dash up d4/b2 range, or d4 range, what does ermac do? @gga, our ermac players just throw the shit outta u. idk how canada does it

Throws work when smoke is in that range.

Ermac can also use iafb. Which does beat d4s if they are shot out.

 

[Metzos]

Tbh WoundCowboy opened my eyes about the ST-Ermac MU. I agree that its in ST's favor. The Sonya-Ermac MU is in Sonya's favor as well.

As for the Smoke-Ermac MU, at the highest lvl, its 5-5. The fact that Smoke cannot chip Ermac is a big deal and the fact that he cannot punish TKP is an even bigger deal. Also all of Smoke's specials lose vs TKP on reaction except his teleport. I have read some posts saying that if Smoke positions himself correctly, he can bait incoming TKP's and punish them. Uhhm no, cause as we all know, Ermac can move as well. Others said that Ermac does not have good AA options... Thats false his standing 1 is an excellent AA option and leads to tons of damage without meter. Others said that Ermac cannot zone properly against Smoke. No. That is incorrect. Ermac cannot use projectiles, yes that is true, but the point is, in the particular MU, he doesnt need them. Others said that trades are in Smoke's favor. That is also not true, since a GOOD Ermac player will not be using projectiles at all against Smoke. He will be using only TKP's. And TKP does not grant Smoke a full combo on trade with sb,IIRC. As for the meter management, Smoke needs meter for his resets and breaker. Ermac on the other hand can take away almost half of his opponents life meterless and he only needs meter for breaker or a killing blow.Ermac's damage out put should be taken into account, like all the other MU's he has. His come back potential without meter is immense.

So imo, it goes like this:

Full screen: Even. Why you ll ask. Cause Ermac can dash in and go into TKP range, where Smoke needs to be careful against him. Now people might say that Smoke can just back dash and continue throwing sb's in order to catch Ermac off guard. Be my guest and move closer in the corner so i can easily zone you even better. If Smoke decides to dash and come into Ermac, he can hold him off with iAB, for a while. Smoke will eventually get in though and up close he wins against Ermac as you ll read below in my post.

Mid screen: Ermac wins for obvious reasons.

Up close: Smoke wins. The fact that Smoke is faster than Ermac up close and the fact that Ermac can only punish blocked sb's with d1, d3 or a throw attempt, means that Smoke is better than Ermac up close. Plain and simple. Also Smoke's b2 is probably the best and fastest overhead in the game and if you get caught, well, you are dead if he has bars. Wafflez is a prime example of that. I prefer getting hit with 6 or 7 d4's than getting hit with b2 when i play against Smoke. Ermac, and any other character, should never crouch against Smoke when up close.

AK Pig Of The Hut, Kenshi-Ermac was at Kenshi's favor, so i dont know why you are even mentioned me. All i said that i wasnt sure if the MU was 7-3, instead of 6-4 Kenshi, cause i wanted to test something and you started flaming like there was no tomorrow, especially when i told you that 7-3 Kenshi was not out of the question. But, as always, you always see what you want to see. There is no need to bash zaf, especially with the showings he had in many tournaments. He has been an Ermac main since day 1 and he has extensive MU experience. So, unless you play against him (i speak in general), dont be so adamant about particular MU's, thats all i am saying.

 

[Metzos]

I hate explaining matchups but whatever I still know a lot about MK. I still play it at a high lvl with my bro. I know a lot of characters.

This is a bad matchup for ermac but not that bad. Lets see force push is good but ermac can't trade with smoke. Its always a better trade for smoke.

Ermac just trying to be lame and block just wont get you the win.
Smoke is building more meter. He has b2, d4,d3, he can grab. Just because smoke has no chip, doesn't mean ermac wins it.
Smoke can slowly walk him down and corner ermac. Just blocking smoke bombs just doesn't seem like it will work at highest lvl.

Can smoke punish force push with tele? probably not.
Smoke holds the life lead better than ermac in my opinion.
Smoke has better footsies than mac in my opinion.
Smoke has better AA options than ermac.
Ermac has to be a lot more riskier to beat smoke in my opinion.

Nothing against any smoke player in Canada. But I think you need to play wafflez extensively to see why the matchup is in smoke's favor.

But yeah smoke wins it 6-4.
6-4 is really close because at the highest lvl it seems like a 5-5

Ermac wont be using projectiles at all in this MU, so trades are even. TKP vs a sb on trade does not grant Smoke a combo when Ermac is at max TKP range, IIRC. True, Smoke builds meter faster than Ermac when in full screen, but Ermac can also use iAB's to build meter safely as well, if the Smoke player starts spamming sb's. Ermac's d3,d4 and especially instant air-blast really helps him against Smoke at sweep range. Up close Smoke wins hands down. Now, if he could punish a blocked sb with a full combo, when up close that would be a different story, but he cant unfortunately. Every special Smoke uses is beaten by TKP on reaction, except his teleport punch. And if Ermac blocks his teleport punch, even once, 47% of his life is gone, meterless. Ermac can play lame against Smoke, if he gets the life lead, he just have to be careful with his TKP spacing. If he does manage that, Smoke has no other choice but to come in his face.

No, Smoke cannot punish a blocked TKP.

That is debatable, cause Ermac can just chip him to death, if Smoke starts playing defensively. Imo if Smoke gets the life lead, he should continue his offense.

His b2 is the only thing that is better in terms of footsies. In everything else they are even.

No. Ermac's AA standing 1 is really good and has good active frames and range. It can lead to 40% dmg meterless.

The thing is, whenever Ermac touches you, you are forced to break. If you dont, half of your life is gone. That can really mess up your opponents mentality. If Smoke decides to break, he wont have meter for his resets and thats a big deal against a character who can kill him by landing two combos against him and has the option of chipping him as well. Plus the fact if Ermac jump a sb, if he is in range, he can punish Smoke with a full combo. On the other hand, Smoke cannot avoid TKP's by jumping.

Imo, its a 5-5 MU.

 

[16 Bit]

Match ups are not based on simplistic check boxes of who wins far, mid and close. Context and the overall picture matter. It does not matter if a character technically "wins full screen" when it's irritating zoning up against a devastating guessing game up close for the other character. Those two things are not equal.

 

[Big Pampering]

I would think ermac would just get harrassed by pokes and mixed up all day with the b2. smoke may not do that much chip damage with blockstrings but all those d4's will land as long as smoke has b2.

 

[Immortal]

You should all agree to disagree. You wont get anywhere with that, lets tournament results speaks for itself not words wars on TYM.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

How does matovermind not count? He has made top 8 at every Canadian major he attended as far as I am aware.
jer doesn't count either???

No need to be sarcastic, the first comment was enough to explain wound's reasoning.


Would you be able to tell me why you think this?

Do I even have to say this ?????


Canadian majors are extremely watered down versions of USA tourneys in terms of competition

Getting top 8 at a Canadian tourney = top 32/16 at nec/scr/WB/MLG/top 64 at Evo/FR /etc

"Oh GAwd Pig you're so mean and such an asshole"

NO

I'm the voice of reasoning and factual info based on three years of tourney results

"Jesus crimminey ey pig BUT we can't travel or they can't travel"

N. M. P. ( not my problem)

"BUT my ermac is finalllllly ready now and canada will win mk at Nec. 2013"

Possible , however you're three years too late, no one plays, no one cares anymore and no one will care about any mk 9 results. Post 2013 Evo they do not matter at all

 

[Qwark28]

so basically "come here and prove it" because its murrica, even though you dont know whether the person youre talking to has any previous fg experience or how he plays.

that did turn out pretty sour when that dude with the broken head and the bags of tea eliminated reo and got 13th at evo

ermac-smoke is dead even the way i see it

 

[RiBBz22]

Sonya could beat smoke 7-3. Probably one of my favourite mus in mk9

OK, this officially confirms this MU to be 7-3 if Downplay-Death is saying it is. Hold dat MK Community.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

so basically "come here and prove it" because its murrica, even though you dont know whether the person youre talking to has any previous fg experience or how he plays.

that did turn out pretty sour when that dude with the broken head and the bags of tea eliminated reo and got 13th at evo

ermac-smoke is dead even the way i see it

The players Zaf mentions do come to USA Majors and all the events i listed, they're some of the greatest USA scene/tourney supporters because they're determination to do well and love for the game however from my recollection Jer placed top 8 at 2012 wb and thats been the only top 8 placing from a Canadian player

Am i missing something or somebody?

As for foxy his head was perfectly fine during casuals for the first day or two before the tourney and the results remained the same for him, glue, ketchup, mustard

Tough titty but facts are facts.

Would anyone in their right mind say foxy is not a top player? No, we all would say he is a top player and if he lived here id be a perennial top 8 placer w the other top mk players. One guy imo proved he could and it was foxy

But for 2 years i had to hear sub zero is 5-5 w csz and rain is 5-5 w kenshi and that shit went out the window very quick

 

[RiBBz22]

Since all of a sudden Smoke MU discussion is all the rage, here is my chart as a refresher course in the Smoke MU world.

6-4 vs Baraka
6-4 vs Cyber Sub-Zero (This MU is weird and uncomfortable but is still advantage Smoke)
5-5 vs Cyrax (Human and Robot; on the edge of 5-5/4-6)
6-4 vs Ermac
6-4 vs Freddy Krueger (on the edge of 7-3/6-4)
7-3 vs Jade
4-6 vs Jax (on the edge of 4-6/5-5)
4-6 vs Johnny Cage
3-7 vs Kabal (Smoke's worst MU)
7-3 vs Kano
5-5 vs Kenshi
6-4 vs Kitana
3-7 vs Kung Lao
5-5 vs Liu Kang
6-4 vs Mileena
6-4 vs Nightwolf
6-4 vs Noob Saibot (on the edge of 7-3/6-4)
6-4 vs Quan Chi (on the edge of 7-3/6-4)
5-5 vs Raiden
6-4 vs Rain
5-5 vs Reptile
6-4 vs Scorpion
6-4 vs Sektor
7-3 vs Shang Tsung (on the edge of 7-3/6-4)
7-3 vs Sheeva
7-3 vs Sindel
5-5 vs Skarlet
5-5 vs Smoke
3-7 vs Sonya Blade (on the edge of 3-7/4-6)
6-4 vs Stryker
6-4 vs Sub-Zero

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Since all of a sudden Smoke MU discussion is all the rage, here is my chart as a refresher course in the Smoke MU world.

6-4 vs Baraka
6-4 vs Cyber Sub-Zero (This MU is weird and uncomfortable but is still advantage Smoke)
5-5 vs Cyrax (Human and Robot; on the edge of 5-5/4-6)
6-4 vs Ermac
6-4 vs Freddy Krueger (on the edge of 7-3/6-4)
7-3 vs Jade
4-6 vs Jax (on the edge of 4-6/5-5)
4-6 vs Johnny Cage
3-7 vs Kabal (Smoke's worst MU)
7-3 vs Kano
5-5 vs Kenshi
6-4 vs Kitana
3-7 vs Kung Lao
5-5 vs Liu Kang
6-4 vs Mileena
6-4 vs Nightwolf
6-4 vs Noob Saibot (on the edge of 7-3/6-4)
6-4 vs Quan Chi (on the edge of 7-3/6-4)
5-5 vs Raiden
6-4 vs Rain
5-5 vs Reptile
6-4 vs Scorpion
6-4 vs Sektor
7-3 vs Shang Tsung (on the edge of 7-3/6-4)
7-3 vs Sheeva
7-3 vs Sindel
5-5 vs Skarlet
5-5 vs Smoke
3-7 vs Sonya Blade (on the edge of 3-7/4-6)
6-4 vs Stryker
6-4 vs Sub-Zero

only # i disagree w is skarlet

I think it is 4-6 skarlet favor