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Match-up Discussion Smoke Match-Up Discussion Thread (2012 Post-EVO Update)

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
This MU number doesn't matter lol. Smoke's main problem is Kabal, Sonya, and Kung Lao. 3 characters you are pretty much going to see in tournament time after time. K thx bai.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
I'm just looking from the outside in when I say this given I didn't play either character, but I can see why the Ermac matchup is more awkward than it should be on paper for Smoke. From Ermac's perspective it's like Scorpion without the threat of chip/hellfire and armor but the trade-off is a safer mixup game with a much bigger reward. From Smoke's perspective, it's like Kenshi without active frame dependent zoning tools and high meterless damage from every situation.

Not sure if there's really enough either way for it to truly be in either character's favor though, just an observation.
 

GGA HAN

Galloping Ghost Arcade
This MU number doesn't matter lol. Smoke's main problem is Kabal, Sonya, and Kung Lao. 3 characters you are pretty much going to see in tournament time after time. K thx bai.
Kabal beats everyone. KL and Sonya are 4-6's, so the character isn't good. :)

Sent from my phone, using the keypad.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Also I noticed that you guys have Smoke 6-4 in his favor against Cyrax but over at the cyrax forum, it's a 5-5.

I was under the impression that Smoke wins here because of the projectile parry than stops nets, fast teleport, smoke towards/away to get away from bombs safely.
 

GGA HAN

Galloping Ghost Arcade
why? Damage wise, both can deal great damage too
The old conventional thoughts on the MU were before a lot of Cyrax tech was discovered or made practical and before we had a high level smoke playing nationally.

Me and Wafflez debate back and forth on this MU all the time, but I really don't think Smoke wins anymore. We are "talking about" Cyrax wining the MU, at the very highest level.

Wafflez

Sent from my phone, using the keypad.
 

zaf

professor
Its come to my attention Ermac beats Smoke 8-2

GGA 16 Bit
Wafflez

My problem with this, is the outrageous claims that are made.
I never said ermac blows smoke up. I never say it is 8-2. 6-4 is not a blow up.
I never say anything of the sort, yet people are always putting words in my mouth.
People are always making shit up and then say IM the crazy one.

This is getting real annoying now. I don't care if you are trolling or if wound is trolling or if bit is trolling.
My problem with this is that you all have so many followers that take anything you say for 100% truth.
Then it is this crowd that just repeats whatever all of you say as if they have no brain and can not think for themselves.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
My problem with this, is the outrageous claims that are made.
I never said ermac blows smoke up. I never say it is 8-2. 6-4 is not a blow up.
I never say anything of the sort, yet people are always putting words in my mouth.
People are always making shit up and then say IM the crazy one.

This is getting real annoying now. I don't care if you are trolling or if wound is trolling or if bit is trolling.
My problem with this is that you all have so many followers that take anything you say for 100% truth.
Then it is this crowd that just repeats whatever all of you say as if they have no brain and can not think for themselves.
8-2 was obviously a joke

Just like you saying you would beat wafflez w ermac and the mu is 5-5 or close
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
My problem with this, is the outrageous claims that are made.
I never said ermac blows smoke up. I never say it is 8-2. 6-4 is not a blow up.
I never say anything of the sort, yet people are always putting words in my mouth.
People are always making shit up and then say IM the crazy one.

This is getting real annoying now. I don't care if you are trolling or if wound is trolling or if bit is trolling.
My problem with this is that you all have so many followers that take anything you say for 100% truth.
Then it is this crowd that just repeats whatever all of you say as if they have no brain and can not think for themselves.
Zaf, you are a cool guy but this ridiculous upplaying needs to stop. The fact is that YOU are the one spreading misleading and flat out wrong information to other Ermac players. When you talk about MUs it is clear that you lack understanding of this game at the highest level. Yes I am trolling you when I call you the Ermac upplayer and ask what you have been smoking, but I troll like that because of your crazy theory fighting.
 

zaf

professor
Zaf, you are a cool guy but this ridiculous upplaying needs to stop. The fact is that YOU are the one spreading misleading and flat out wrong information to other Ermac players. When you talk about MUs it is clear that you lack understanding of this game at the highest level. Yes I am trolling you when I call you the Ermac upplayer and ask what you have been smoking, but I troll like that because of your crazy theory fighting.
For some reason you always like to ignore what I say.
I have said countless times that I am not theory fighting. That when I talk about match ups, it is from playing them out.

Did you not hear tom in the latest KK podcast? When he was saying that match ups are not determined in one set, or in one tournament match?
You need to run countless sets, which is what I have been doing.

My methods may seem a little unorthodox, but that is because of how much I extensively try to figure out match ups.
What is wrong with timing characters out, this is a mechanic of the game that can be used.
What is wrong with attempting to fight someone's meter instead of their health, meter is a mechanic of the game.

I know how this game works at the highest level, do not be so insulting.
I never once said ermac beats shang. For a while I had this match up as even. 5 - 5
Then after more extensive playing of this match up ( not even with just you ) I changed how I viewed the match up and I said it was in shangs favor. I know why it is in shangs favor. So there are things we can agree on for sure. But just because we have different opinions on how match ups are played, does not mean that you constantly need to harass me or insult me. Just talk like a normal person. Don't troll me. Talk match ups out. No one has even yet to tell me why smoke beats ermac besides d4 and touch of death. Is this game really that simple that 2 things cause smoke to blow up ermac? Please. Give the game more credit then that.
 
Zaf is right in that you do have to run many many sets to see what a matchup number is. Even after that the skill level between the two players could be different so that could lead to misleading numbers as well. But that is what the fun is. Talking MUs and theories is one of the tenants that keep this site alive.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Kabal beats everyone. KL and Sonya are 4-6's, so the character isn't good. :)

Sent from my phone, using the keypad.
You got 2/2 of those MU numbers incorrect.

Kabal, Sonya, and Kung Lao 7-3 Smoke. I have never had it any other way. These 3 characters are Smoke's issues in MK9.

The old conventional thoughts on the MU were before a lot of Cyrax tech was discovered or made practical and before we had a high level smoke playing nationally.

Me and Wafflez debate back and forth on this MU all the time, but I really don't think Smoke wins anymore. We are "talking about" Cyrax wining the MU, at the very highest level.

Wafflez

Sent from my phone, using the keypad.
I used to be completely in the court of Smoke beating Cyrax, but he loses 6-4. Smoke has incredible tools against some of Cryax's options, but they are honestly options that Cyrax players don't even need to use in this MU. Cyrax rushdown and pressure are awesome in this MU. It is either 6-4 Rax or a 5-5.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
For some reason you always like to ignore what I say.
I have said countless times that I am not theory fighting. That when I talk about match ups, it is from playing them out.

Did you not hear tom in the latest KK podcast? When he was saying that match ups are not determined in one set, or in one tournament match?
You need to run countless sets, which is what I have been doing.

My methods may seem a little unorthodox, but that is because of how much I extensively try to figure out match ups.
What is wrong with timing characters out, this is a mechanic of the game that can be used.
What is wrong with attempting to fight someone's meter instead of their health, meter is a mechanic of the game.

I know how this game works at the highest level, do not be so insulting.
I never once said ermac beats shang. For a while I had this match up as even. 5 - 5
Then after more extensive playing of this match up ( not even with just you ) I changed how I viewed the match up and I said it was in shangs favor. I know why it is in shangs favor. So there are things we can agree on for sure. But just because we have different opinions on how match ups are played, does not mean that you constantly need to harass me or insult me. Just talk like a normal person. Don't troll me. Talk match ups out. No one has even yet to tell me why smoke beats ermac besides d4 and touch of death. Is this game really that simple that 2 things cause smoke to blow up ermac? Please. Give the game more credit then that.
If u are beating kabals and smokes with ermacs, you are playing with the wrong people. Same with Kenshi. There are only a few people in the scene that play those characters at a high level. Playing the mu means jack if u aren't playing those people. By the way you talk about the Smoke mu, I am willing to bet your MU exp goes beyond theory fighting and a few mediocre Smokes.
 

zaf

professor
If u are beating kabals and smokes with ermacs, you are playing with the wrong people. Same with Kenshi. There are only a few people in the scene that play those characters at a high level. Playing the mu means jack if u aren't playing those people. By the way you talk about the Smoke mu, I am willing to bet your MU exp goes beyond theory fighting and a few mediocre Smokes.

I've never said ermac beats kenshi.
I've always known and said that ermac loses kenshi. So this is irrelevant.

I've played smoke with matterovermind very recently.
His smoke is one of the best I have played and he did not take 1 game off me last time we played.
Would be cool if you came in here matt and explained how I played.
I've also played with jer a lot. He picked up smoke.
Jer tells me it is 6-4 for ermac or 5-5.
Some days when we played, I won more games. Some other days Jer blew me up. But that is really nothing to do with the MU itself.
There are days when Jer gets in my head and he just beats me more. There are days when I do the same. This happens when you play Mus with your training partner. However, even setting aside who wins more, we both can sit back for a moment and can tell which character has to work for the win. If he is outplaying me, that is just it. I'm being out played. Smoke is not winning, ermac is not losing. Jer is beating me.
I can agree with a 5-5 as well, I can sway that way. It does feel even for the most part.
Only reason I would say it is in ermac favour is because I personally feel smoke has to work more then ermac.
Yes smoke has resets, but he has to touch ermac first.

I was going very much even with ac1986 and lulzlou at SJ.

Not every Mu will be set in stone. Especially if you keep playing the game and discovering more.
 

Death

Warrior
You got 2/2 of those MU numbers incorrect.

Kabal, Sonya, and Kung Lao 7-3 Smoke. I have never had it any other way. These 3 characters are Smoke's issues in MK9.



I used to be completely in the court of Smoke beating Cyrax, but he loses 6-4. Smoke has incredible tools against some of Cryax's options, but they are honestly options that Cyrax players don't even need to use in this MU. Cyrax rushdown and pressure are awesome in this MU. It is either 6-4 Rax or a 5-5.
Sonya could beat smoke 7-3. Probably one of my favourite mus in mk9