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Match-up Discussion Skarlet Vs. Kung Lao

ryublaze

Noob
Bird laos a pretty swaggy name.

Just sayin'

on topic: every1's theory fighting. Some1 needs to play this MU out and maybe record a video of the match instead of saying this is 5-5 or in KL's favor
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Since you mentioned somethin about mixes, while its still on my mind. Need something to be able to record shit from my mates technics, I'm getting pretty brutal now.
Why don't you make like this, run a long set with Xarakamaka, i want to see why you guys says this MU is dificult.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
They are online only. They can't get anything tested for sure
Online really doesnt have anything to do with the bird Lao technique. Other than, the less laggy it is, the more divekicks you can do.

It's not like there is a window of opportunity, because the other player doesnt get presented an opportunity. Nobody is at frame advantage of disadvantage, just that KL has so many options, while completely reducing the opponents.
 

cR Xarakamaka

Kombatant
do you mean do i want to make a video of me being destroyed then no lol ill save myself the embarassment , and you should see my bird kano :):) new tech! :D l0l
 

Ninj

Where art thou, MKX Skarlet?
Online really doesnt have anything to do with the bird Lao technique..
The way you describe this technique, Kung Lao is godlike. Online has everything to do with everything. Show us some recorded offline sessions of Bird Lao in action so we can see the skill levels of you and the person you're fighting to determine if it's even a fair fight, and then see what holes there may be in this Bird Lao strategy.

You're going to have a hard time in general saying Skarlet has no way to respond to something, because she has so many options between D3, EX Red Dash, and instant-air daggers to shut things in down. I realize those are general statements, but they are very versatile options she has. It's difficult to completely shut her down if the player understands the techniques being used against them.

Maybe Bird Lao is different and transcends Skarlet's ability to get out of shit. I'd love to see some video instead of "But if I do x, you can't do y!" "But then I can do z, and you can't do x! "But then if you do z, I can do f!" "But then..." forever and ever in a gigantic MK9 circle jerk.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
The way you describe this technique, Kung Lao is godlike. Online has everything to do with everything. Show us some recorded offline sessions of Bird Lao in action so we can see the skill levels of you and the person you're fighting to determine if it's even a fair fight, and then see what holes there may be in this Bird Lao strategy.

You're going to have a hard time in general saying Skarlet has no way to respond to something, because she has so many options between D3, EX Red Dash, and instant-air daggers to shut things in down. I realize those are general statements, but they are very versatile options she has. It's difficult to completely shut her down if the player understands the techniques being used against them.

Maybe Bird Lao is different and transcends Skarlet's ability to get out of shit. I'd love to see some video instead of "But if I do x, you can't do y!" "But then I can do z, and you can't do x! "But then if you do z, I can do f!" "But then..." forever and ever in a gigantic MK9 circle jerk.
D3, and all other low pokes are USELESS, you cant poke him while he's airbourne, or while he's landing. If you start doing things like D4 and D1, you're letting him hit you for free, because they become whiff punishes instead.
EXRD, again, useless. If you're wanting to use a bar, I'll take the slide. If you want to empty RD, he can just continue flying.
Instant jumpkick > Instant projectiles, so theyre out.

The fact is, KL has at least 9 options, most of them completely safe or on reaction, every time he lands, and is at no risk to anything because nobody has a normal long enough to reach him.

- Repeat the safe JKDK
- Block
- D4 -> Throw/Strings
- Raw throws
- Teleport
- Back off
- Do nothing
- F2
- Low hat
- Max range 2 4 (hitconfirm into spin)
- Go in the air for a JIP, this ones particularly good, people like to low poke under divekicks (for some unknown reason?) That just = free combos or block pressure.
- X-Ray, generally works as a good whiff punisher too.

This technique isnt like understanding things such as Jax's GP setups, or Cage frame traps or anything like that. It is SO fast paced, you wont be able to keep up with it.

You can't contest him in the air, without taking a risk.
KL could play completely random, no player will ever be able to predict it. Theres so many ways to describe it, he crosses over for free, and lands within his optimal range every time. So it plays to both of his strengths, in the air and on the ground, while at the same time not having to deal with any of his weaknesses, mainly low pokes and low hitboxes. To counter it you pretty much just gotta hope that the KL player fucks up and you block a divekick, which involves stand blocking.

Stand blocking against KL is death.

It's so difficult to explain to somebody that:
- Doesn't know what it is
- Hasn't played against it

Without actually playing against it and seeing it for how STUPID it is, any counter argument is pretty moot, most of the 'solutions' people try to theory fight against my proven idea, dont work. I'm not going to go on about something in this game, that just doesn't work, thats pretty much everything I stand against.

If you want to beat bird Lao, you need to have a lone single option, that can beat all 9 or more of the options he has, which is just not possible.

I'm 'going to have a hard time in general saying Skarlet has no options' because theres about 6 - 10 people that have seen bird Lao, 2 of them being Skarlet players that dont post in the Skarlet forum.

All the bird Lao technique does, is amplify EVERYTHING about KL, by a rediculous amount, as well as completely nullifying all of his old 'weaknesses'.

Online seriously has nothing to do with bird Lao... like I said before its not an issue to do with frame data, its basically a perpetual mind game, started by a safe 33->45% combo starter that cant be AA'd or NJP'd

JKs in the air are 8f, skarlets dagger is 11f or something rediculous like that. The only thing I could see 'working' for Skarlet would be JK dagger, but thats a whole new layer to the mindgame of bird Lao, same way it works with Kitana, if you're just gonna guess that he will JKDK, and hope to contest it with your own JK, its still in his favour:

1. He gets more damage anyway
2. He's safe as soon as he leaves the ground when he does this, because when he recovers he can block, and there are so few moves that move at the same speed and safety as the DK. If you do JK dagger, you're just sitting there waiting to be punished.
 

B Pryme

Mortal
On a lighter note the skarlet community is THE most passionate community and I give that props, you guys care a lot about the scar community and that's awesome. Unfortunately though I gotta side with foxy, lao wins ggs :)
 

Johnny2d

Xbl: Johnny2Die
Even though its coming out in the form of arguing there is a lot of great information being written in this forum. I for one dont really care what points get proven, I just read and soak it all up like a sponge. Good show guys :)

Sent from M-Class Star Freighter USCSS Nostromo
 

B Pryme

Mortal
Even though its coming out in the form of arguing there is a lot of great information being written in this forum. I for one dont really care what points get proven, I just read and soak it all up like a sponge. Good show guys :)

Sent from M-Class Star Freighter USCSS Nostromo
We are training soon! I need more experience against your skarlet, and I want to find a new main.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
ppl, are yet to find out how U3 and F4 can be ridiculous in this game against any air move that doesn't posses armor.
U3 and F4 might be slow, but once thrown out becomes retarded, not JIK or dive kick in this game beats U3, if it was so, PPL would Dive kick on Skarlet all day with fastest dive kicks like Sonya and Cyber Sub-Zero, even Jax that has a better JiK loses to U3.


Skarlet only need to do U3 to beat this tactic and automatically will prevent all others KL ways to approach after he lands, if he dive kicks or jumps in again to comeback, the U3 wins. If he F3, U3 wins, if doesn't reach, down dagger does., if he teleports, The dagger will auto correct, if he string his way in, U3 will whiff punish. if he throws a hat, ex Dash to punish. Kung Lao will get nothing.

The other way to prevent this tatic is play Range Check Skarlet, which places her in range where she can use nearly all her options, and the opponents are forced to play on her range, you can get in, you can't zone, you can't dive kick, you can't teleport, you can't F3 while she is there, any character of this game is a sitting duck to range check, except for Ermac and Kenshi. She gets just too much options as she is on within range, it becomes retarded as well.

Besides being able to reverse Red Dash on whiffed dive kick, to bait strings, spins or block for a free blockstring, or reverse ex dagger cancel to catch him on the ground at the very first frame he lands giving her a free blockstring either on block (+21) or hit (+39) and rebuild the spent meter, which KL is forced to crouch block without see what is comming, because if he blocks the dagger standing he gets jailed for a better ride.

Skarlet has too many options to just staying there blocking afraid she might get hit by a dive kick, or being spun, when all she has are pretty useful to create the perfect optical illusion, this is not true, her best combos also come from roller states and whiffing stuff and setting up fake punishers and pokes, instead of rushing ppl down like a maniac. Like Ninj said on a post earlier, the too many options she get from a D3, D4, iaD, Red Dash or Crimson Dash, U3 and whiffing stuff in the opening are incredibly dangerous.


This theory fighting can go on forever, but i already said, this will not lead us anywhere, i know what is coming in there, like " U3 doesn't beat JKDK, because it will not come in time because is slow", ppl who are beating by U3 says its broken. Though the discussion is really interesting but is just retarded to theory fighting this stuff without a MU video of a Bird Lao taking on Skarlet.:D

So or we get a video, or we're doing nothing here, but nothing to trying to justify counters with counters, counters with counters only work better inside the game.

do you mean do i want to make a video of me being destroyed then no lol ill save myself the embarassment , and you should see my bird kano :):) new tech! :D l0l
This is not a matter of you losing or being embarrassed, its a matter of you making us turn to the dark side of Skarlet losing to Kung Lao 4-6, we do not downplay Skarlet in here, no Skarlet player is Emo, and when they recognize a weakness or when we know a character has better options to shape a bad matchup, we do not sit there in the corner crying how retared a tech can be, we just work around and find better solutions. This is how Skarlet has grinded since last year.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
OK good luck using U3 against a JK, you do know the purpose of jump kicks right? You cant AA them with normals. Especially ones that are twice as slow.
You'll never be able to beat an 8f point blank JK with a 16f u3 loll...
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
I need more testing in his. Me and pig (who's Lao is actually quite solid) played a while on this. If those games told me anything, it's that skarlet loses the footsie game drastically and her only chance at winning is zoning, and keeping pressure after a reset. I couldn't iAd and it hurt me drastically. It wasn't a MU thing, it was an execution thing.

But I can't let one series determine my opinion. Ill be back
 

LionHeart

Whisper within a sigh
OK good luck using U3 against a JK, you do know the purpose of jump kicks right? You cant AA them with normals. Especially ones that are twice as slow.
You'll never be able to beat an 8f point blank JK with a 16f u3 loll...
I was talking about using U3 at all, not vs. KL's JKxxDK...

I still believe that Skarlet loses this match-up 4-6 or perhaps 3-7, but without tournament experience whatsoever (and not enough KL vs Skarlet matches played) we can only theorize imHo (and I emphasize the HUMBLE part LOL)...
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
OK good luck using U3 against a JK, you do know the purpose of jump kicks right? You cant AA them with normals. Especially ones that are twice as slow.
You'll never be able to beat an 8f point blank JK with a 16f u3 loll...
You're cleary have no clue f0xy. that's life anyway, just run the MU video, and show me why no skarlet in the world would be able to handle Bird Lao.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
You're cleary have no clue f0xy. that's life anyway, just run the MU video, and show me why no skarlet in the world would be able to handle Bird Lao.
I clearly have no clue, stating that an 8f un-AA-able move, the jump kick, will beat out a 16f U3? LOL

Its not like he even lands anywhere near her up on the cross over anyway, so all you'd be doing is getting full combo whiff punished. Like I said before, if Cages B3 wont do it, neither will Skarlets U3
 

AssassiN

Warrior
Still need more experience, maybe if Foxy fixes his console we can get more games in :p.
But if I have to give my thoughts I still think it's 4-6, I dropped so many combo's last night due to online and not being used to Xbox controller.

Skarlet can handle bird Lao if you know what to do, it depends on reading each other and capitalizing of your reads.
It's obvious Foxy knows how to play the MU, so don't just shrug him off. He knows what he is talking about.

Bird Lao is something to respect and study. So stop theory fighting and go into practice mode.
Get some videos and match vids to back up your talking.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I'm not doubting f0xy, he is if not my favourite player. he is just making this sound as the worst thing in the game ever, so retarded, that Lao would just keep doing as he pleases and no skarlet would be able to do anything at all.

anyway, i want to see this bird lao on action against a Skarlet player, only then i will be able to determine if its a big deal to actually be too concerned or if we can simply nulify by using more options where KL keeps getting nothing from each dive kick over.

this just made me remind Sonya's D4 Military stance F1 Cartwheel
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
I clearly have no clue, stating that an 8f un-AA-able move, the jump kick, will beat out a 16f U3? LOL

Its not like he even lands anywhere near her up on the cross over anyway, so all you'd be doing is getting full combo whiff punished. Like I said before, if Cages B3 wont do it, neither will Skarlets U3
U3 is 19 frames. It will beat out a iajk if done in anticipation with obvious risk. The hit box in huge on that thing
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
U3 is 19 frames. It will beat out a iajk if done in anticipation with obvious risk. The hit box in huge on that thing
16

but its wheird because beats lows, mids and advancing specials as well, which makes me wondering if its active frame is really on the 16f
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
U3 is 19 frames. It will beat out a iajk if done in anticipation with obvious risk. The hit box in huge on that thing
Says 16f on her frame data thread. The hitbox is huge on Cages B3 too, every Cage player thats tried to B3 me out of bird Lao, either gets full combo whiff punished from me doing nothing, or they get full combo whiff punished because the JKDK will just go over it.

If the JK doesnt connect and you divekick, you're safe.

Throwing shit out in anticipation is exactly what bird Lao wants you to do. Same applies to NJP, it just wont work.

Anyway, I doubt any Skarlet player would even have the time to throw out an U3 against 100% relentless divekick spam.