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Match-up Discussion Sinestro Matchup Discussion

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
Agree it's not in Sinestro's favor. I'm tempted to say 6-4 though.

By the way, my earlier numbers on the expected (average) value of MB b3 into vortex were pretty off. Starting w MB b3, initial combo (MB b3, j3, b12, j2) does 35%. Then each additional rep does 18-28% or so. Expected value is thus 50% - enough to discourage yolo teleports. It's hardly a free option for MMH.
 

JLU51306

Bzzzt *Paging Doctor Fate*
What's the census on the Sinestro/Zod match-up? I fought a fairly good Zod last night, and Sinestro was the only way I beat him.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
Well, I am bored and have decided to post my MU numbers:

Aqua 3-7
Bane 6-4
Batgirl 5-5
Batman 5-5
Ares 5-5
Cyborg 7-3
Black Adam 5-5
Catwoman 6-4
DS 5-5
Dd 6-4
Flash 5-5
GL 7-3
Ga 6-4
Harley 5-5
Hawk 7-3
Joker 7-3
KF 4-6
Lex 8-2
Lobo 6-4
MMH 4-6
NW 7-3
Raven 5-5
Scorp 4-6
Shazam 6-4
Grundy 5-5
Superman 6-4
WonderWoman 6-4
Zat 4-6
Zod 7-3

Good MUs: 14
Even MUS: 9
Bad MUs: 5

Discuss.
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
Well, I am bored and have decided to post my MU numbers:

Aqua 3-7
Bane 6-4
Batgirl 5-5
Batman 5-5
Ares 5-5
Cyborg 7-3
Black Adam 5-5
Catwoman 6-4
DS 5-5
Dd 6-4
Flash 5-5
GL 7-3
Ga 6-4
Harley 5-5
Hawk 7-3
Joker 7-3
KF 4-6
Lex 8-2
Lobo 6-4
MMH 4-6
NW 7-3
Raven 5-5
Scorp 4-6
Shazam 6-4
Grundy 5-5
Superman 6-4
WonderWoman 6-4
Zat 4-6
Zod 7-3

Good MUs: 14
Even MUS: 9
Bad MUs: 5

Discuss.
It's kind of minor but when you come to SCR I would like to try and change your mind about the GL matchup. I think it's just 6-4, not quite 7-3.
 

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
I'd like to ask how Doomsday is 6-4, if anything I thought it was 4-6. I'm clearly playing the matchup wrong if this is the case. Any help would be appreciated.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
I doubt Sinestro vs. The Flash is an even match up. Flash has that small hitbox that makes fear blast whiffs from far distances. He also punishes fear blast half a screen away and abuses a grounded Sinestro.



Interesting.

Playing To Win insists on 6:4 after fighting Salt Face.
From what I hear, P2W hasn't played saltface in awhile. I also played him around the time of TFC and did very well. He has since learned the mu better and come up with new strategies. It isn't bad by any means but Harley can be annoying. As for Flash, he can punish the FB but he has to guess whether or not Sinestro meter burns it. He also does not have a safe way to stop sinestro from charging the trait unless he is close. Sinestro's footsies are also superior with this current patch.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
From what I hear, P2W hasn't played saltface in awhile. I also played him around the time of TFC and did very well. He has since learned the mu better and come up with new strategies. It isn't bad by any means but Harley can be annoying. As for Flash, he can punish the FB but he has to guess whether or not Sinestro meter burns it. He also does not have a safe way to stop sinestro from charging the trait unless he is close. Sinestro's footsies are also superior with this current patch.
I think the two fools fought before Frosty Faustings, but I am not really sure.

The problem is if The Flash is hit by the remaining two hits of the MB fear blast, he loses 6%. If Sinestro is hit by the MB lighting charge, he loses 32%. He is also wall carried and knocked down. Flash's b+2,2 xx RMS is +6 on block. Sinestro's footsies do not compare. You have to fight Master D.'s Flash.

I also want to give Zod vs. Sinestro another shot when you fly back home.
 

SuppaSapien3

Chipotle and Olive Garden are NOT authentic
Sinestro vs cyborg 7-3 matchup? Huh? is there something im doing wrong I can at least see this being 5-5.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
I think the two fools fought before Frosty Faustings, but I am not really sure.

The problem is if The Flash is hit by the remaining two hits of the MB fear blast, he loses 6%. If Sinestro is hit by the MB lighting charge, he loses 32%. He is also wall carried and knocked down. Flash's b+2,2 xx RMS is +6 on block. Sinestro's footsies do not compare. You have to fight Master D.'s Flash.

I also want to give Zod vs. Sinestro another shot when you fly back home.
Flash does alot more damage, i'll grant you that. I still don't see it in the footsies though. Sinestro's b12 is 16 frames (one frame slower than flash's b2) and it has more range. Unless flash has sinestro cornered, it is difficult for him to start his mixups.
 

xInfra Deadx

Gimmick stolen by Jordan Peele
Well, I am bored and have decided to post my MU numbers:

Aqua 3-7
Bane 6-4
Batgirl 5-5
Batman 5-5
Ares 5-5
Cyborg 7-3
Black Adam 5-5
Catwoman 6-4
DS 5-5
Dd 6-4
Flash 5-5
GL 7-3
Ga 6-4
Harley 5-5
Hawk 7-3
Joker 7-3
KF 4-6
Lex 8-2
Lobo 6-4
MMH 4-6
NW 7-3
Raven 5-5
Scorp 4-6
Shazam 6-4
Grundy 5-5
Superman 6-4
WonderWoman 6-4
Zat 4-6
Zod 7-3

Good MUs: 14
Even MUS: 9
Bad MUs: 5

Discuss.
I like this MU chart the best.
 

RIF

Noob
Well, I am bored and have decided to post my MU numbers:

Aqua 3-7
Bane 6-4
Batgirl 5-5
Batman 5-5
Ares 5-5
Cyborg 7-3
Black Adam 5-5
Catwoman 6-4
DS 5-5
Dd 6-4
Flash 5-5
GL 7-3
Ga 6-4
Harley 5-5
Hawk 7-3
Joker 7-3
KF 4-6
Lex 8-2
Lobo 6-4
MMH 4-6
NW 7-3
Raven 5-5
Scorp 4-6
Shazam 6-4
Grundy 5-5
Superman 6-4
WonderWoman 6-4
Zat 4-6
Zod 7-3

Good MUs: 14
Even MUS: 9
Bad MUs: 5

Discuss.
I feel like Superman, WW, and DD are all 5-5. Superman has everything he needs to still get close to Sinestro. At close-range, F23 still has to be respected. His ability to take 50% then put you in a cross-up dive mixup cannot be discounted. WoWo has too many anti-zoning tools to keep her away. Shield Stance is a PROBLEM for Sinestro.

DD is such an annoying character to fight. Good trait & meter management means DD is always in your face. I don't see how it's not even.

Zatanna is a 5-5. You play her like you do Ares. Sinestro can out 'footsie' her and she can't really stop you from charging trait. Once you have trait, you can bully her a bit.

Hawkgirl is not a 7-3. She has tools to get in your face and stay there. Most HG players are not fighting this match-up correctly. It's in Sinestro's favor as a 6-4.
GL is not a 7-3 either. He needs one right guess to put you in a repeatable 50/50. I agree GL's poor mobility means he's always at disadvantage against Sinestro, but he has the tools to get in. His low starter is annoying as hell as it goes under B12.

Lex as an 8-2? 7-3? Ok. Not 8-2. I need an explanation.

Flash....I cannot see this being even. He can punish everything you do. Maybe I am fighting this MU incorrectly, but it seems like you cannot zone him and his little foot poke beats everything Sinestro can throw out there.

Aqua, Flash, Frost, MMH, and Scorpion are his toughest match-ups.
 
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RIF

Noob
Sinestro vs cyborg 7-3 matchup? Huh? is there something im doing wrong I can at least see this being 5-5.
How? Sinestro beats him at range and up close. He cannot really stop you from getting trait. It 'could' be 6-4 in Sinestro's favor, but I agree with Wound. It feels like a 7-3.

WoundCowboy You totally mind-fucked ALL of GGA. If you listen to the latest GBS, they have Sinestro as a God character. Where would you HONESTLY place him?
 
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cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
I feel like Superman, WW, and DD are all 5-5. Superman has everything he needs to still get close to Sinestro. At close-range, F23 still has to be respected. His ability to take 50% then put you in a cross-up dive mixup cannot be discounted. WoWo has too many anti-zoning tools to keep her away. Shield Stance is a PROBLEM for Sinestro.

DD is such an annoying character to fight. Good trait & meter management means DD is always in your face. I don't see how it's not even.

Zatanna is a 5-5. You play her like you do Ares. Sinestro can out 'footsie' her and she can't really stop you from charging trait. Once you have trait, you can bully her a bit.

Hawkgirl is not a 7-3. She has tools to get in your face and stay there. Most HG players are not fighting this match-up correctly. It's in Sinestro's favor as a 6-4.
GL is not a 7-3 either. He needs one right guess to put you in a repeatable 50/50. I agree GL's poor mobility means he's always at disadvantage against Sinestro, but he has the tools to get in. His low starter is annoying as hell as it goes under B12.

Lex as an 8-2? 7-3? Ok. Not 8-2. I need an explanation.

Flash....I cannot see this being even. He can punish everything you do. Maybe I am fighting this MU incorrectly, but it seems like you cannot zone him and his little foot poke beats everything Sinestro can throw out there.

Aqua, Flash, Frost, MMH, and Scorpion are his toughest match-ups.
Okay, before I begin I should explain that I judge Sinestro's MUs on only a couple of criterion: can they stop him from getting trait and how do they deal with his zoning?

Supes: He can't really stop trait charge until he gets closer and his zoning is very limited against Sinestro. He must also be very careful with his F23 because if he is even a little off, it is a free whiff punish with D2 or D1. Pre patch Sinestro still did prety well.

WW: I don't really see how she can stop his zoning or trait charge. One of her best tools, instant demi-goddess, is almost always punishable by D2 or at least a FB. Shield stance isn't that big of a deal once Sinestro has trait because then she is forced to guess in his vortex and pressure constantly. He gets trait pretty easy once she is in this stance because of her limited mobility.

DD: It is true that DD will almost always get in at some point, but he is forced to eat a ton of chip due to his gigantic hitbox. DD is also one of the few characters that does less damage than Sinestro. The only thing guaranteed after a blocked Venom is D1, while all of DD's other options are risky and punishable. Sinestro can also make it so DD can never D1 ES outside of the corner; the floating hitbox allows him to avoid the second part of it and full combo punish him for trying.

Zatanna: I really don't see how this is 5-5. Sure you can trait charge and bait but she wins all trades, does more chip, and is safe unless you are really close. By the time you have trait, she usually has a good-sized life lead. Let's also not forget that one misplaced FB= a full combo after a teleport.

HG: I could potentially see it being 6-4, but I played PPJ while in Chicago and it seems as if my MU knowledge was confirmed. She does next to no damage midscreen, can't stop the trait charge, and can't fly ever against Sinestro. He can control her movement regardless of her positioning on the screen. The only time she is at advantage is if she happens to corner him.

Lex: I might concede 7-3, but my logic is that Lex can do absolutely nothing that he wants to. His trait and projectiles are too slow in comparison to FB, he can't stop the trait charge, and even if Lex manages to get the trait up, Sinestro can negate it completely with his own trait. His giant hitbox also forces him to eat a shitload of chip.

Flash: The only argument I hear for this not being 5-5 is that Flash can punish everything and yea, you shouldn't be using boulder or shackles in this MU. The only way he can punish FB is if Sinestro delays it, which means that he will either get hit by the MB every time or be forced to respect it. B12 outranges pretty much every attack that Flash has and Flash cannot saafely stop the trait charge unless he decides to do an unsafe special or if he is literally right in your face.

Let me know if you have any other questions.
 

RIF

Noob
Okay, before I begin I should explain that I judge Sinestro's MUs on only a couple of criterion: can they stop him from getting trait and how do they deal with his zoning?
I also look at how much damage and what type of follow-up situations the opponent can set up if the Sinestro player makes a mistake. (Bane knockdowns, DD post-shoulder charge game, etc) How does the match-up play out when Sinestro does not have trait? As much as I'd like to dream that I always have trait out, when I don't, if the match-up changes drastically, I take that into account.

Supes: He can't really stop trait charge until he gets closer and his zoning is very limited against Sinestro. He must also be very careful with his F23 because if he is even a little off, it is a free whiff punish with D2 or D1. Pre patch Sinestro still did prety well.
His zoning does the job it is supposed to do: Limit Sinestro's trait charge time. His movement still allows him to navigate projectiles and close the gap when taking blocked Fear Blasts. Delayed Fear Blast can slow his ground movement, but Superman's zoning can bait a whiffed Fear Blast which will allow the Superman player to close the gap. In the mid-range, you have to respect his air-dash cross-up. His corner mix-up game is very strong. One bad read and you're eating 50-60%.

WW: I don't really see how she can stop his zoning or trait charge. One of her best tools, instant demi-goddess, is almost always punishable by D2 or at least a FB. Shield stance isn't that big of a deal once Sinestro has trait because then she is forced to guess in his vortex and pressure constantly. He gets trait pretty easy once she is in this stance because of her limited mobility.
Top WW players claim it's in her favor or even. She gets in with her movement. If Sinestro doesn't have meter, she can parry the Fear Blast. How is IADG punishable at mid-screen? Do you mean on a read punish prior to block stun? What's stopping her from just waiting out the trait shots and going in when she is in shield stance? She's not taking major chip and is just waiting for her turn. Shield Stance can put her in many plus situations that makes it hard for Sinestro to make space without a pushblock or clash. She will always be at a meter advantage against Sinestro which means she will win most of the clashes.

DD: It is true that DD will almost always get in at some point, but he is forced to eat a ton of chip due to his gigantic hitbox. DD is also one of the few characters that does less damage than Sinestro. The only thing guaranteed after a blocked Venom is D1, while all of DD's other options are risky and punishable. Sinestro can also make it so DD can never D1 ES outside of the corner; the floating hitbox allows him to avoid the second part of it and full combo punish him for trying.
I have no problems blocking ES, but I cannot keep Doomsday out. DD builds a ton of meter very quickly. DD pushes you into the corner and can start his pressure game. 33 or D1-ES is going to keep Sinestro pinned down.
I was unaware of the D1 issue for DD. Does Sinestro just crouch block the D1-ES to do this? DD does have some damaging combos with a meter or BGB on various stages. (Though I agree his standard combos are very 'meh' in terms of damage) Without trait, I feel it's in DD's favor. With trait it's probably in Sinestro's favor which is why I have it at 5-5.

Would like to see you play a long set against Noobe to really flush it out.

Zatanna: I really don't see how this is 5-5. Sure you can trait charge and bait but she wins all trades, does more chip, and is safe unless you are really close. By the time you have trait, she usually has a good-sized life lead. Let's also not forget that one misplaced FB= a full combo after a teleport.
Maybe I haven't played enough top Zatannas to feel otherwise, but how can she stop Sinestro from charging trait at all? Her normals are stubby as all hell. I rarely use projectiles against her. Out-range her pokes with B12 and put her in the vortex or trait up when the opportunity arises. Where is the danger in keeping her just outside of B12 range and charging trait? If she Teleports while charging trait, do what you do against Ares, jump back AoT. I have much more trouble facing Ares, than I do Zatanna. IDK....Maybe I need to play a better Zatanna.

Flash: The only argument I hear for this not being 5-5 is that Flash can punish everything and yea, you shouldn't be using boulder or shackles in this MU. The only way he can punish FB is if Sinestro delays it, which means that he will either get hit by the MB every time or be forced to respect it. B12 outranges pretty much every attack that Flash has and Flash cannot saafely stop the trait charge unless he decides to do an unsafe special or if he is literally right in your face.
He can duck under Fear Blast from a very far distance. How do you keep Flash from not getting right in your face? He can inch his way in. He can also activate his trait and use his run slide to get in. This will also force the Sinestro player to stop trying to get trait. 50% combos. A double hitting B3. The corner cross up with this flip kick. B12 is huge in the mid-range, I agree.

It's mostly just splitting hairs. Thanks for your feedback. Sinestro is clearly a very good character with trait. Top 10? Yes. Top 5? No. I don't think so.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
I also look at how much damage and what type of follow-up situations the opponent can set up if the Sinestro player makes a mistake. (Bane knockdowns, DD post-shoulder charge game, etc) How does the match-up play out when Sinestro does not have trait? As much as I'd like to dream that I always have trait out, when I don't, if the match-up changes drastically, I take that into account.



His zoning does the job it is supposed to do: Limit Sinestro's trait charge time. His movement still allows him to navigate projectiles and close the gap when taking blocked Fear Blasts. Delayed Fear Blast can slow his ground movement, but Superman's zoning can bait a whiffed Fear Blast which will allow the Superman player to close the gap. In the mid-range, you have to respect his air-dash cross-up. His corner mix-up game is very strong. One bad read and you're eating 50-60%.



Top WW players claim it's in her favor or even. She gets in with her movement. If Sinestro doesn't have meter, she can parry the Fear Blast. How is IADG punishable at mid-screen? Do you mean on a read punish prior to block stun? What's stopping her from just waiting out the trait shots and going in when she is in shield stance? She's not taking major chip and is just waiting for her turn. Shield Stance can put her in many plus situations that makes it hard for Sinestro to make space without a pushblock or clash. She will always be at a meter advantage against Sinestro which means she will win most of the clashes.



I have no problems blocking ES, but I cannot keep Doomsday out. DD builds a ton of meter very quickly. DD pushes you into the corner and can start his pressure game. 33 or D1-ES is going to keep Sinestro pinned down.
I was unaware of the D1 issue for DD. Does Sinestro just crouch block the D1-ES to do this? DD does have some damaging combos with a meter or BGB on various stages. (Though I agree his standard combos are very 'meh' in terms of damage) Without trait, I feel it's in DD's favor. With trait it's probably in Sinestro's favor which is why I have it at 5-5.

Would like to see you play a long set against Noobe to really flush it out.



Maybe I haven't played enough top Zatannas to feel otherwise, but how can she stop Sinestro from charging trait at all? Her normals are stubby as all hell. I rarely use projectiles against her. Out-range her pokes with B12 and put her in the vortex or trait up when the opportunity arises. Where is the danger in keeping her just outside of B12 range and charging trait? If she Teleports while charging trait, do what you do against Ares, jump back AoT. I have much more trouble facing Ares, than I do Zatanna. IDK....Maybe I need to play a better Zatanna.



He can duck under Fear Blast from a very far distance. How do you keep Flash from not getting right in your face? He can inch his way in. He can also activate his trait and use his run slide to get in. This will also force the Sinestro player to stop trying to get trait. 50% combos. A double hitting B3. The corner cross up with this flip kick. B12 is huge in the mid-range, I agree.

It's mostly just splitting hairs. Thanks for your feedback. Sinestro is clearly a very good character with trait. Top 10? Yes. Top 5? No. I don't think so.
I actually have played a long set with Noobe and I did very well. If you block the D1 crouching (which also covers D3), and then stand up block, the last hit whiffs and he gets punished.

As for WW, I have never played one that I didn't beat (including Foxy and Goomba). And yes, Sinestro can punish the demigoddess on block every time with at least a fear blast, but usually D2. And sure, WW can "wait" for you to use the trait but that means that they are defending instead of challenging it which means that you get to attack with block pressure and vortex setups. If your trait shots aren't hitting, you are doing it wrong.

Against the Flash I usually force him to have to walk in. Dashes are punishable or at least give you a check with D1 or B12. When he gets into trait I usually either shackles if he is far enough away or just allow him to get in and pushblock to get rid of it.

The problems that Zatanna presents are not through her normals. She can keep chucking projectiles at you with little consequence and by the time you get the trait, you could be facing a major defecit. And yea, if you haven't played Deg, you haven't played a real Zatanna.
 
Reactions: RIF

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Agree it's not in Sinestro's favor. I'm tempted to say 6-4 though.

By the way, my earlier numbers on the expected (average) value of MB b3 into vortex were pretty off. Starting w MB b3, initial combo (MB b3, j3, b12, j2) does 35%. Then each additional rep does 18-28% or so. Expected value is thus 50% - enough to discourage yolo teleports. It's hardly a free option for MMH.
Are u on xbl or ps
I can recommend good MMH to try, I agree w cowboy about it being 7-3 MMH

MMH wins footsies
Zoning
Counter zoning
Hard to charge trait
Chip war (MMH full screen traited up does 2.5 and 2.2% chip on specials when zoning)
Beats him in damage
Punishes arachnid for 42%
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Sinestro vs cyborg 7-3 matchup? Huh? is there something im doing wrong I can at least see this being 5-5.
Sinestro controls every piece of land in this MU

Trait is very easy to achieve

Better ground game

Boulder wins trade w IAFB

Just absolutely sucks for cyborg
 

Crathen

Death is my business
So i'm about to test ways to counter Arachnid+trait shot on wakeup in practice mode , any known setups to blow that up?
 

Drizzle

Jump and shoot.
d2 actually doesn't punish iaDG unless it's sloppy. Fear blast can work depending on the spacing but you risk losing 41% if you're wrong.