General/Other - Shinnok Shinnok General Discussion Thread

[Sultan]

Shinnok is still -4 after the gun, regardless of how he got there and where he ends up in proximity to the opponent. A competent opponent will start pressure accordingly no matter the distance. It's nice in theory what you're saying because hardly anyone knows the match up properly but in the long run it will not be practical.

If I'm -4 that means my f4 will reach my opponent in 11 frames. If I'm spaced at the edge of f4 range, and my opponent has no options that travel that same distance or further in 11 frames or less, that means a follow up f4 is now a more viable option when properly spaced.

Simply put, being -4 in an unadvantageous position and being -4 in an advantageous position are different things, and one is clearly better than the other.

If I'm playing Shinnok, I don't want to be face to face at -4, I want to be just outside of most jab or d1/d3 ranges. I don't want to give my opponent options.

A competent player or not, advantageous spacing is advantageous spacing. I don't see how that losses practicality.

 

[D. R.]

If I'm -4 that means my f4 will reach my opponent in 11 frames. If I'm spaced at the edge of f4 range, and my opponent has no options that travel that same distance or further in 11 frames or less, that means a follow up f4 is now a more viable option when properly spaced.

Simply put, being -4 in an unadvantageous position and being -4 in an advantageous position are different things, and one is clearly better than the other.

If I'm playing Shinnok, I don't want to be face to face at -4, I want to be just outside of most jab or d1/d3 ranges. I don't want to give my opponent options.

A competent player or not, advantageous spacing is advantageous spacing. I don't see how that losses practicality.

You have literally just posted the situation and outcome. If a competent opponent knows the spacing, ie f41 xx bf1 or f41d2 xx bf1, they will act accordingly. Do you get what I'm saying? This is theory fighting at this point. There is no mix up here. They are either in range to counter poke which you can back dash freely or out of range and essentially at the neutral so as a Shinnok player it will come down to analyzing how the opponent counters in a match and doing what you feel is best. It's very easy to tell by the string preceding the bf1 where you'll end up if you're the opponent. For those 11 frames to work in your favor you'd have to commit to f4. I understand your logic here nonetheless but I'd prefer the chip and meter. To each their own. Play-styles make matches.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

for a character like shinnok to be in your face at -4 is pretty scary for some of the cast.

since he has awesome pokes and a fast low starter the guessing game after dark beam is in shinnok's favor in some matchups.

most character's combo starters dont reach shinnok after blocked dark beam, but shinnok's f4 will reach so that puts the risk/reward in his favor.

 

[rockettorussia]

how nerfed into the ground do you guys think shinnok will be in the next patch? i've been with him since day 1 and, while im not gonna drop him, it's gonna be rough to go from bad to good then back to bad. i don't even have any other charcaters i've really clicked with either.

i'm just hoping they only nerf boneshaper since that seems to be the one everyone is latching on to and its my least favorite.

 

[Kidigital]

Omg this thread.

 

[SaJa]

If I'm -4 that means my f4 will reach my opponent in 11 frames. If I'm spaced at the edge of f4 range, and my opponent has no options that travel that same distance or further in 11 frames or less, that means a follow up f4 is now a more viable option when properly spaced.

Simply put, being -4 in an unadvantageous position and being -4 in an advantageous position are different things, and one is clearly better than the other.

If I'm playing Shinnok, I don't want to be face to face at -4, I want to be just outside of most jab or d1/d3 ranges. I don't want to give my opponent options.

A competent player or not, advantageous spacing is advantageous spacing. I don't see how that losses practicality.

Yep, the best example is Reo vs DJT (23min12), Kunglao can't poke after being touched on block lol, he tried several times :

 

[xInfra Deadx]

This thread has deevolved to uneducated idiots wanting Shinnok nerfed without doing their research.

 

[DevilMaySpy]

how nerfed into the ground do you guys think shinnok will be in the next patch? i've been with him since day 1 and, while im not gonna drop him, it's gonna be rough to go from bad to good then back to bad. i don't even have any other charcaters i've really clicked with either.

i'm just hoping they only nerf boneshaper since that seems to be the one everyone is latching on to and its my least favorite.

Yep, I think Boneshaper's getting beaten with the nerf bat after EVO. Hopefully if it happens, they do only touch Boneshaper specific stuff, like the laser and T H E M O P.

 

[Sultan]

If they nerf Shinnok I'll be terribly disappointed with NRS's balancing team, because the only reason they'd have is his overuse at the moment. He's a strong character, but he's not broken or any better than equally strong characters. Lao, Tanya, Jax, D'Vorah... all come to mind as characters as strong as or stronger than Shinnok atm (imo, obviously). If they nerf him, it's entirely a knee jerk response to the amount of players using him, and nothing to do with his actual strengths as a character.

If anything they should repeat what they did with Shinnok and buff lower tier characters the same way he was: make them complete.

 

[D. R.]

I can't help but laugh at all eyes on Shinnok when Tanya and Kitana are at the forefront to win Evo.

But let that bandwagon keep going for BS. So many people don't have a clue thinking he'll get nerfed. lol Idiots.

 

[legion666]

I can't help but laugh at all eyes on Shinnok when Tanya and Kitana are at the forefront to win Evo.

But let that bandwagon keep going for BS. So many people don't have a clue thinking he'll get nerfed. lol Idiots.

I am personally tired of people even saying he is top 5 now or like even players like Pig are saying on Yomi stream that his f4 is 6 frame, that Scepter Slam is 14, that dark beam is -3 on block, some even claiming it is PLUS!!! Lol!! WTF???! Makes me think last time they checked his frame data was right after the launch of mkx.
But @D. R. You have to agree that NRS is famous for unfairly nerfing characters due to the popular demand. That is why all this talk and him winning three weeklies this last two weeks is worrying me)

 

[Osirun]

I made a blog post talking about how I have never been in a position to play a "top tier" character, and that therefore I am in the new (to me) position of having to worry about nerfs. D. R. is absolutely right about the misinformation, though. Just spouting off incorrect facts or conjecture about a character is a very bad thing to do. At least we could all be coming from a factual place; I now have empathy for the players of high tier characters in NRS games, lol.

At the end of the day, whatever happens will happen. I will not stop playing Shinnok. If they nerf him seriously, then it'll be a good topic for another blog post, lol. And my notes on Shinnok will just change. Reminds me of Viscant's post about patch fatigue, and while I still believe that patches are better than no patches, I do hope that the "final" version of the game is not too far off : )

 

[Osirun]

You know, I bet a lot of people have a problem with the f.3, 1, d.2 (Fall From Grace) and f.4, 1, d.2 (Banishment) strings. So, NRS, let me help you nerf Shinnok in a way that preserves all of his combo ability but makes the matchup "easier" for players.

Shinnok Boneshaper

• Banishment and Fall From Grace kombos are now -7 (from -5) on block, and have less pushback on block.
• Dark Beam is now -7 (from -4) on block.

These nerfs would allow players to more easily counterpoke Shinnok as he tries to continue pressure from the negative frames of the strings, or if he cancels into Dark Beam.

This would be a fairly substantial nerf to the character, but if this was all there was, then I would still consider the strings and Dark Beam to be usable as intended.

Using these strings and/or canceling into Dark Beam would still be fairly safe at a distance. So it would still be a great footsie tool. However, at point blank range, like the examples used in the above video, Shinnok would have an even harder time wantonly continuing pressure. As it stands, players can still poke out if Shinnok puts them into a Banishment or Fall From Grace xx Dark Beam blockstring. Kung Lao could have poked out in the video examples used above, but the player did not know that or did not poke with the proper timing.

It is just like poking out of any negative pressure. The opponent is in negative frames, but if they have meter you still have to commit to your counterpoke with the knowledge that they may armor through and maintain their offense. Or, they may backdash your poke. It is a common situation for all characters in the game and is part of the decision making that players participate in.

EDIT: changed suggested frame data nerfs to Banishment, Fall From Grace, and Dark Beam.

 

[legion666]

You know, I bet a lot of people have a problem with the f.3, 1, d.2 (Fall From Grace) and f.4, 1, d.2 (Banishment) strings. So, NRS, let me help you nerf Shinnok in a way that preserves all of his combo ability but makes the matchup "easier" for players.

Shinnok Boneshaper
Banishment and Fall From Grace kombos are now -8 and have less pushback on block.

This nerf would allow players to more easily counterpoke Shinnok as he tries to continue pressure from the negative frames of the strings, or if he cancels into Dark Beam (which is -5). Kung Lao, for example, could also then spin for a frame perfect punish, if I am correct in remembering that the spin in Tempest has a startup of 7 frames (plus the frame for coming out of blockstun, right?).

As it is, at a distance, using these strings and/or canceling into Dark Beam is indeed fairly safe. So it is a great footsie tool. However, at point blank range, like the examples used in the above video, Shinnok cannot wantonly continue pressure. Kung Lao could have poked out, but the player did not know that or did not poke with the proper timing.

It is just like poking out of any negative pressure. The opponent is in negative frames, but if they have meter you still have to commit to your counterpoke with the knowledge that they may armor through and maintain their offense. Or, they may backlash your poke. It is a common situation for all characters in the game and is part of the decision making that players participate in.

The strings' block advantage isn't a problem. It is mostly Dark Beam which is -4 on block by the way, and MB HS that give +14 which these strings are usually canceled with.

 

[Osirun]

@legion666 Edited my post to reflect the Dark Beam frames properly and also to suggest a nerf to Dark Beam, making it -7 on block. This would, again, make it easier for players to counterpoke Shinnok if he attempts to continue string pressure.

The nerf on the plus frames to MB HS was warranted, and now it is harder for Shinnok to continue pressure afterward. He must MB the first HS, because to do so on the second or third HS now puts him too far away to dash in and pressure before the opponent recovers to counter poke or jump, etc.

If people are still having a hard time, then make MB HS +10 rather than +14, and give Shinnok an even tougher time maintaining pressure while preserving the safety of the move since a bar of meter was spent on it.

 

[Osirun]

People will learn to deal with Shinnok as he is, as time goes by. However, if nerfs are coming, I hope an NRS forum watcher sees my suggestions XD

 

[legion666]

He doesn't need to be nerfed. He has his weak spots. People just need to learn to exploit them. But he probably will get nerfed as this is how this community and NRS functions)

 

[SPY]

I don't know why NRS made that Dark Beam safe on block in the first place. Yes, people was asking for Dark Beam to become positive on HIT, but why make it completely safe on block and cut almost all recovery from it? From all necessary changes Shinnok received - safe and spammable Dark Beam was only one uncalled.
As Shinnok player myself I ask TYM people and NRS to be calm and rational. Jumping to conclusions based on matchups learned in the process of a match and outdated and\or uneducated info, will not lead to anything good.

 

[gibster13]

He won't get nerfed. There is not a reason for it apart from noobs being beat by him because they don't know what they are doing.
You still have Tanya,d'vorah,raiden,quan,Kung lao who are all considered better then him but they have really received little nerfs. There is nothing from this point on with boneshaper that will completely change his style of play. Unless they made bf1 less safe on block which would be stupid. If you know what I mean

 

[Creepy00]

Just to be sure, but is it possible for some characters to armor special if restand by f2,2,1+2~ Dark beam? or is f4 always guarantee? I asked cause was hit few times playing online.

 

[bl31]

Beam +8 on hit and f4 7f startup. So it's guaranted but hard. I think online players doing it with little hole.
Also, why NRS should nerf beam when jax got +7 on block blast?

 

[TeknoOdin]

Beam +8 on hit and f4 7f startup. So it's guaranted but hard. I think online players doing it with little hole.
Also, why NRS should nerf beam when jax got +7 on block blast?

i think this board is thinking too much on bone shaper and not enough on the other variations f4 being nerfed will cause more harm than actual balance for necro and imposter now if you only normalise the f4,1,d2 combo the yes that would be more acceptable

 

[Bad Genez]

^ That. I think this board focuses too much on Bone Shaper. As a day 1 Shinnok player as well (not sure tbat matters?) I've found Imposter blows BS out of the water in some matches, and it doesn't make sense why some people use it to me.

 

[D. R.]

I think the topic should be changed entirely. The scrubs and frauds have all been exposed and moved on.

Now, with the latest patch (and possibly an update otw with Tremor and the classic skin pack 2), new brutalities have been introduced into the game for many characters.

Help me find Shinnoks guys. I feel he's got to have a hidden one somewhere.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Is shinnok a footsie centric character?