General/Other - Shinnok Shinnok General Discussion Thread

[Juggs]

That means that the blast is on the screen for a total of 601 frames, whereas the recovery time is 601-549 or 52 frames (so on wiff).

Oh really? Damn I legit didn't know that, thanks.

 

[badgerfan20945]

Other than b3 1 d2 being somewhat safe, what other advantages does it have? The low scoop or overhead mixup is really easy to block because the overhead is so slow.

 

[Ojpaxton]

I hate asking for buffs this early, but Shinnok is fun, but he can't compete with the rest of the cast right now. All he has are gimmicks, once people figure them out, he has very limited options.

Boneshaper I still believe is his best Variation. B3 1 d2 being -5 on block means it's safe vs most of the cast. And you can create an Aquman like mixup canceling into low scoop. Problem is that it's a gamble, and low scoop is like -100 on block. The f22 throw standing reset isn't good when the only mixup after it is throw, go low, or block.

His zoning is terrible. In all variations. If he actually could do moves without feeling like he's drunk and underwater, maybe he could zone some people out. Like in Boneshaper if the unblockable was like 29 startup frames instead of 39, and had like 15 frames of recovery instead of 23, maybe it would be decent.

All he needs is less start up and less recovery, and he would be playable. Right now, he's almost definitely LAST on the tier list.

agree/disagree saying he's the lowest is crazy talk right now, but I do believe he will be low without a few buffs the key to shinnk ( said before by someone) is good spacing and letting u r opponent react. When he has the life lead it's scary for sure.

 

[Quantus]

This might just be a result of no one online blocking, but I'm blowing through meter with Shinnok (Bone Shaper) like crazy (extending combos into the reset). Anyone have any ideas on a good way to keep meter flowing?

 

[GGA Max]

I don't think we should call for buffs as of now. I am going to play him for a solid month before I decide if the rumors are true that he is bad.

His 6 frame b3 is godlike, by the way. Hit an opponent with a few of them into a full combo as a counter poke and watch the ton of respect they give you.

 

[legion666]

I don't think we should call for buffs as of now. I am going to play him for a solid month before I decide if the rumors are true that he is bad.

His 6 frame b3 is godlike, by the way. Hit an opponent with a few of them into a full combo as a counter poke and watch the ton of respect they give you.

Loved your Shinnok at GGA SFN! Was happy to see the Imposter in particular. You went for the throw mix up a lot after Mimicry, but do you find using his 50/50 mix up with low teleport into njp/empty land b3 useful at all?!

 

[GGA Max]

Loved your Shinnok at GGA SFN! Was happy to see the Imposter in particular. You went for the throw mix up a lot after Mimicry, but do you find using his 50/50 mix up with low teleport into njp/empty land b3 useful at all?!

I heard of that one man but havent tried it. I know batman had that type of thing but no one used it lol. so not sure if its viable.

edit: thx btw man.

 

[Ninequads93]

His vortex ain't no joke in the corner you can get high damage tele in front and cancel the b3 option into mb amulet to combo or be plus

I also believe it might be possible to combo off blast meterless if it anti air depending on the height I'll have to test after work also going to try out someothee stuff

 

[MsMiharo]

Don't know if anyone beat me to the punch but you can actually go into a safe block string for chip (but costing you meter). The damage buff from mimikry adds up and you can go for a semi mix-upo where they have to guess low/grab. It's quite effective if they can't reversal it as it gives you ~16% chip for 1 bar.

The first setup grants you 15,83% chip (for a bar) but can be reversal'd with teleports or fast advancing moves. The second set up gets you a total of 29.62% but can also be reversal'd (however it beats out non-armored reversal's). However it is easy to hit confirm the f22(3) into stolen move or hell sparks. The third setup is a way to mix them up when they're in the block setup, going into a powered up grab after the first block cycle giving you 8,84%+16% = 24,84% total. The fourth setup is the same but a way to punish their break attempt for 17% damage (25,85% total or 15,83% if they block correctly).

@AVN PTH jonnitti
@Shamwow0w0w

 

[Youphemism]

I find it hilarious how many people have come in this thread, said Bone Shaper sucks, then went into the lab after we've told them what it has and the person has come back with a new appreciation for it. With that in mind I have no idea why the hell people are saying Necromancer is his best and Bone Shaper is his worst, it's the other way round for me
I mean look at it this way:
Bone Shaper: arguably better footsie tools, an o v e r h e a d *cue Hallelujah* which can be mixed up with his low scoop that he also gets in this variation, a standing reset (although neutral but we have a 6 frame low so not all is lost)
Necromancer: safe flick.....that can be ran past. "Zoning" moves, some of which can be WALKED past never mind ran past.

No joke I'm having no luck zoning with Necromancer and I'm unfortunately going to have to do the same as what some of the other guys in this thread have said they're going to do and wait and see if/how Shinnok changes because I'm managing to do what I want to do better with another/other character(s)

-Lastly, dramatically increase the startup and make his 22 string hit Overhead, Mid.

Yes yes and god yes. I hate this string right now but this would be PERFECT.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

I find it hilarious how many people have come in this thread, said Bone Shaper sucks, then went into the lab after we've told them what it has and the person has come back with a new appreciation for it. With that in mind I have no idea why the hell people are saying Necromancer is his best and Bone Shaper is his worst, it's the other way round for me
I mean look at it this way:
Bone Shaper: arguably better footsie tools, an o v e r h e a d *cue Hallelujah* which can be mixed up with his low scoop that he also gets in this variation, a standing reset (although neutral but we have a 6 frame low so not all is lost)
Necromancer: safe flick.....that can be ran past. "Zoning" moves, some of which can be WALKED past never mind ran past.

No joke I'm having no luck zoning with Necromancer and I'm unfortunately going to have to do the same as what some of the other guys in this thread have said they're going to do and wait and see if/how Shinnok changes because I'm managing to do what I want to do better with another/other character(s)

Yes yes and god yes. I hate this string right now but this would be PERFECT.

honesty i dont think the overhead in bone shaper is good at all. theres nothing that stops them from just always block low and stand up when that part of the string comes up. its not a mixup.

edit:whoops forgot at df2 was a low lol

regardless of him having an overhead, it only does 9% when you pop someone with it and they blocked the first two hits of the string. also you're not really going to be able to hit confirm that so the first hit will do 3% if you want to be super safe but the hit after the overhead is -15

end of the day i still don't think that good but maybe better than i initially thought. i still think you're underrating the flicks. they're really good meaty and in block strings, im just seeing how have to mix up on block between f2 flick f22 flick and f22 hellsparks. since any thing canceled into flick isn't a true block string and can be armored through, you have to mix up when you do the part that can be armored through. hellsparks catches people trying to armor through but is usnafe

 

[Eji1700]

The little things with shinnok really fucking annoy me.

For example, tested on kung jin.

312~shoulder combos
312~EX shoulder drops the second hit. What the fuck?

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

Don't know if anyone beat me to the punch but you can actually go into a safe block string for chip (but costing you meter).
-snip-

That looks really useful; I like it. But something to know about it that I discovered after testing it a bit myself: you have to run up before the b3 to get this to work airtight on other characters mid-screen, and it's a really strict timing. I'm not going to test all the characters, but Kung Lao and Mileena are two examples; they seem to recoil backward from the EX amulet more than Scorpion does.

 

[Eji1700]

That looks really useful; I like it. But something to know about it that I discovered after testing it a bit myself: you have to run up before the b3 to get this to work airtight on other characters mid-screen, and it's a really strict timing. I'm not going to test all the characters, but Kung Lao and Mileena are two examples; they seem to recoil backward from the EX amulet more than Scorpion does.

It's also not a true blockstring as far as I can tell. They can armor out as the startup on EX amulet leaves a gap.

To be precise.

3,1,2 EX amulet is a true blockstring.

Doing F2,2,4 after that can be armored out before the F2 and after the 4.

Further only the F2 on block has enough block stun to jail into EX amulet. Attempting amulet after the second 2 or the 4 can be armored as well.

 

[MsMiharo]

It's also not a true blockstring as far as I can tell. They can armor out as the startup on EX amulet leaves a gap. Or rather it leaves a gap on the longer one, F2,2,4. 3,1,2 amulet is clean.

yup but not after the 3,2,1 string iirc

 

[MsMiharo]

Okay I experimented some more and found out that you can go for a decent setup on some characters that don't give you the ability to vortex. The most obvious one is Jax but you get 20% on F/T as well. These characters can't do anything except block break to get out of the chip.

Jax: 29% + 31% = 60% unavoidable reset
Ferra/Torr: 29% + 20,32% = 49,32%
Cassie Cage: 16,12% chip
Liu Kang: 8,48% chip
D'vorah: 7,64% chip
Kenshi: 8,65% chip but punished by grab

Some numbers might be slightly off but they should be about right.

Remember if they start respecting your ability to safely pressure them you can also mix them up with an EX amulet into grab or something.

 

[AcMilan91]

Guys i came here to find my second character, my main is jax ? Am i on the right place? I like necromancer is he any good?

 

[Eji1700]

Guys i came here to find my second character, my main is jax ? Am i on the right place? I like necromancer is he any good?

It's still early but initial impressions aren't great. Shinnok requires a lot of effort for mediocre reward so far.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

really good news, turns out the frame data in the game for f22 is wrong and it actually can't be punished by a move thats 7 frames or slower. in every fighting game that would mean hes -6 but i think in mk i heard letting go of block takes a frame so that would make it -7? i heard injustice was something similar but i honestly didn't even look at the frame data that much outside of my own character and just knew what was punishable and what wasn't punishable and what the best punishers were. i was a lot less of a numbers kind of guy back then than i am now


anyways besides the point this means that there are a handful of characters that can't punish it that don't have 6 frame jabs, so its not unsafe to everyone. so if you're playing against a character that can't punish it you can kinda spam the hell out of it lmfao

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

really good news, turns out the frame data in the game for f22 is wrong and it actually can't be punished by a move thats 7 frames or slower. in every fighting game that would mean hes -6 but i think in mk i heard letting go of block takes a frame so that would make it -7? i heard injustice was something similar but i honestly didn't even look at the frame data that much outside of my own character and just knew what was punishable and what wasn't punishable and what the best punishers were. i was a lot less of a numbers kind of guy back then than i am now


anyways besides the point this means that there are a handful of characters that can't punish it that don't have 6 frame jabs, so its not unsafe to everyone. so if you're playing against a character that can't punish it you can kinda spam the hell out of it lmfao

According to the system guide thread by Tom Brady, if you mean 7 frame or slower normals, that would make f22 -8 since it takes a frame to leave blockstun and there's "no just frame punishes" (I think what he means by that is the startup doesn't include the first active frame). Special moves (and reversal throws and backdashes) apparently cancel that frame of leaving blockstun, though. And yeah, though I haven't gotten a chance to actually play the game yet (tomorrow hopefully), I think people in general are underrating the safety of attacks in the -6 to -8 range.

EDIT: Clicked "post" before I was done >_<. Just checked in game and the block advantage for f22 is -8, so it matches up with the system guide.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

According to the system guide thread by Tom Brady, if you mean 7 frame or slower normals, that would make f22 -8 since it takes a frame to leave blockstun and there's "no just frame punishes" (I think what he means by that is the startup doesn't include the first active frame). Special moves (and reversal throws and backdashes) apparently cancel that frame of leaving blockstun, though. And yeah, though I haven't gotten a chance to actually play the game yet (tomorrow hopefully), I think people in general are underrating the safety of attacks in the -6 to -8 range.

EDIT: Clicked "post" before I was done >_<. Just checked in game and the block advantage for f22 is -8, so it matches up with the system guide.

i said that a 7 frame move CANNOT punish it. i tested it out with quan chi's standing 2 and mileena's d2, which are both 7 frame moves.

edit: oh yeah i see what you're saying i read that wrong at first and i thought you were trying to dispute what i was saying but i just read it too fast. you just explained it better for me lol

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

i said that a 7 frame move CANNOT punish it. i tested it out with quan chi's standing 2 and mileena's d2, which are both 7 frame moves

Yes, and I agree. I tested it myself as well, just in case. Did something in my post indicate I thought otherwise? If a move is punishable by 6 frame or faster normals, it is -8; 1 extra frame to leave block animation, and another to reach first active frame (at least I believe that's what Tom Brady meant when he said the game had "no frame perfect punishes").

"In order to punish with a normal attack you need to use a normal that is at least 2 frames faster then the opponents negative frames."

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Yes, and I agree. I tested it myself as well, just in case. Did something in my post indicate I thought otherwise? If a move is punishable by 6 frame or faster normals, it is -8; 1 extra frame to leave block animation, and another to reach first active frame (at least I believe that's what Tom Brady meant when he said the game had "no frame perfect punishes").

"In order to punish with a normal attack you need to use a normal that is at least 2 frames faster then the opponents negative frames."

edited my original post. i just read it to fast, forgive me its super late at night and its 4/20 so i apologize for being an idiot

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

edited my original post. i just read it to fast, forgive me its super late at night and its 4/20 so i apologize for being an idiot

Nah, it's cool, I saw it. I guess I'm just not good at being clear? Similar thing happened in the combo thread when I asked about the Impostor vortex, lol. I would like your input on that by the way since you had said you were looking into (and hopefully using) the vortex heavily, but I realized only now that I hadn't formatted the tag on my post right, so I'm not sure you saw it.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Nah, it's cool, I saw it. I guess I'm just not good at being clear? Similar thing happened in the combo thread when I asked about the Impostor vortex, lol. I would like your input on that by the way since you had said you were looking into (and hopefully using) the vortex heavily, but I realized only now that I hadn't formatted the tag on my post right, so I'm not sure you saw it.

honestly im not comfortable enough with it yet but i found combos for it with most of the cast. im going to finish that off soon enough but i kinda put imposter on the backburner for now in favor of necro, which personally i just have more fun with and i feel capable of performing with in tournament. imposter is still in the lab. gonna check out more of boner shaper, which is pretty cool but i'm still not convicned is amazing

overall i do think the vortex is really good, however most characters have much safer options, so in the grand scheme of things, its not THAT good. i wonder if you can option select b3 hellsparks using the ultradavid option select. still haven't tested that because i forgot about it but its past 6am and i havent slept yet lol. i also have a hard time pulling it off because i kinda feel like the teleport input is pretty counter intuitive but thats probably because ive never played a game with that input before. but for sure, it would never be something i would use online, hell no. execution is too demanding for it to be consistent, thankfully i barely play online. its just something i have to grind out more. ive been focusing more on trying to find out how to get around some of his holes in necromancer, because overall, i feel like that variation fits my playstyle the most and i honestly think its overall a very good, its just not as shithead as we all initially thought it was going to be.

also i dont really consider myself a very vortex heavy player. i feel like i do best when im playing neutral instead of forcing people to guess, but thats just me



on another note, idk if anyone has mentioned this before or saw me doing this on the kombat network stream but in necromancer, after EX shoulder ive been going for meaty unblockable hand timing it on their wakeup. probably isnt guaranteed but worth loooking into