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Match-up Discussion Shazam Match-Up Discussion

sirshyguy

sirshyguy

Noob
I've been having trouble with the Nightwing MU, especially when he is in staff stance. He easily controls the mid-close range game, denying b23 and HM, and he has a solid keepaway/counter-zoning game with Ground Spark and Flying Grayson (that pole vault bridging move). He gets me in the corner, and I have a hard time regaining momentum or counter-poking him out of anything. To top it off, you have to really respect his wake ups; the only real solution I've come up with is tele behind him to cross up and punish, but good Nightwings start to catch on.

Thoughts?

@EGP Wonder_Chef
@ISF_AWG_Indecisive
@subzerosmokerain
@TKT ZigZag
@pogse
@anybodyelsewithsomeinsight
 
Indecisive

Indecisive

We'll burn you all—that is your fate!
sirshyguy said:
I've been having trouble with the Nightwing MU, especially when he is in staff stance. He easily controls the mid-close range game, denying b23 and HM, and he has a solid keepaway/counter-zoning game with Ground Spark and Flying Grayson (that pole vault bridging move). He gets me in the corner, and I have a hard time regaining momentum or counter-poking him out of anything. To top it off, you have to really respect his wake ups; the only real solution I've come up with is tele behind him to cross up and punish, but good Nightwings start to catch on.

Thoughts?

@EGP Wonder_Chef
@ISF_AWG_Indecisive
@subzerosmokerain
@TKT ZigZag
@pogse
@anybodyelsewithsomeinsight
Click to expand...
I have to play any really good Nightwing players. I have played against a few but nothing too amazing. if he gets you in the corner you need to pushblock. like if you dont you could lose. watch out for the move where he slams the staff on the ground. it tracks everywhere even behind him. i dont know why. it just does. what you need to do is abuse his horrible mobility when he is in staff mode. and try to get the command grabs at max range. never go for yolo torpedo cause he can probably punish. dont try to bolt cause he can stop it. its a weird MU but what you kinda have to do is abuse dicks lack of mobility. hopefully that helps a bit.
 
sirshyguy

sirshyguy

Noob
ISF_AWG_Indecisive said:
I have to play any really good Nightwing players. I have played against a few but nothing too amazing. if he gets you in the corner you need to pushblock. like if you dont you could lose. watch out for the move where he slams the staff on the ground. it tracks everywhere even behind him. i dont know why. it just does. what you need to do is abuse his horrible mobility when he is in staff mode. and try to get the command grabs at max range. never go for yolo torpedo cause he can probably punish. dont try to bolt cause he can stop it. its a weird MU but what you kinda have to do is abuse dicks lack of mobility. hopefully that helps a bit.
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Yeah, that all makes a lot of sense. I do have a bad habit of yolo torp'ing too much vs nightwing. Maybe more j2's?

Big fan of your Shazam videos, btw. Keep it up!
 
RNLDRGN

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
NW is one of Shazam's toughest MUs IMO. I always pick Sinestro for this. NW is just so much of a threat up close that it's tough for Shazam to really do anything. NW can even just zone Shazam all day if he wants.
 
EGP Wonder_Chef

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
RNLDRGN said:
NW is one of Shazam's toughest MUs IMO. I always pick Sinestro for this. NW is just so much of a threat up close that it's tough for Shazam to really do anything. NW can even just zone Shazam all day if he wants.
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I agree with this.

I think NW could very well be Shazam's worst matchup.

In staff he wins from far away, dominates you up close, and has easily one of the hardest set of wakeups to deal with in the game.
 
ZigZag

ZigZag

That Welsh Guy
sirshyguy said:
I've been having trouble with the Nightwing MU, especially when he is in staff stance. He easily controls the mid-close range game, denying b23 and HM, and he has a solid keepaway/counter-zoning game with Ground Spark and Flying Grayson (that pole vault bridging move). He gets me in the corner, and I have a hard time regaining momentum or counter-poking him out of anything. To top it off, you have to really respect his wake ups; the only real solution I've come up with is tele behind him to cross up and punish, but good Nightwings start to catch on.

Thoughts?

@EGP Wonder_Chef
@ISF_AWG_Indecisive
@subzerosmokerain
@TKT ZigZag
@pogse
@anybodyelsewithsomeinsight
Click to expand...
I have to disagree and agree at the same time with the other guys, NW is like two different match ups in one, in escrima I think it's pretty even and not too bad.
In staff stance you CANNOT get in against a good NW, unless they're moving a torpedo range may be one of your only chances, but they have range all over you in staff stance that will poke the majority of your attacks and his Flying Grayson is broke AF lol.

It's not easy in staff stance at all, but In escrima it feels pretty even, I'd try working playing very patient and defensive, put on a bit f pressure but not too much to be poked down by his range, let him get greedy and try and catch him when he's moving in.
 
sirshyguy

sirshyguy

Noob
TKT ZigZag said:
I have to disagree and agree at the same time with the other guys, NW is like two different match ups in one, in escrima I think it's pretty even and not too bad.
In staff stance you CANNOT get in against a good NW, unless they're moving a torpedo range may be one of your only chances, but they have range all over you in staff stance that will poke the majority of your attacks and his Flying Grayson is broke AF lol.

It's not easy in staff stance at all, but In escrima it feels pretty even, I'd try working playing very patient and defensive, put on a bit f pressure but not too much to be poked down by his range, let him get greedy and try and catch him when he's moving in.
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I agree with escrima being the much easier stance to handle. It's a relief when he/I clash or when he throws, cause then he defaults back into escrima, ha ha.

And Chef's totally right: his wake up game is terrifying. Forward MS (ending up behind him) to HM is my favorite way to deal with it (for example, off a MB Atlas Torp), but once they catch on, they just d1 instead of waking up to poke me out. And Flying Grayson gets them out of there anyway.
 
KC H0oKsw0rds

KC H0oKsw0rds

iK A B A L
If you can get them to wake up Grayson, which may cross you up, can you not reversal HM punish? Or can they backdash or d1 that?
 
sirshyguy

sirshyguy

Noob
KC H0oKsw0rds said:
If you can get them to wake up Grayson, which may cross you up, can you not reversal HM punish? Or can they backdash or d1 that?
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Nearly positive that Flying Grayson is -11 or worse on block, so reading and blocking that would be in Shazam's favor (HM is 11 frames, I think).
 
AK Gookus

AK Gookus

Slant-eyed Nightwing
Grayson is -3, plus if we do it from far away. Has horrible priority though. I've stopped using it after people learned to d2 on reaction. You should be able to bait FG's and punish with Shazam's sick d2 combo
 
Chongo

Chongo

Dead Kings Rise
sirshyguy said:
Nearly positive that Flying Grayson is -11 or worse on block, so reading and blocking that would be in Shazam's favor (HM is 11 frames, I think).
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Grayson is -3 on block. You can deal with it by crouching and d2'ing him as he flys over you (don't really know how good shazams uppercut is, so that might not be that great of an option) or you can whiff punish him after he lands (KF can spike, Aqua can ftd, etc). I would retest this, but it seems like he can block both b23 and torpedo. I would just do something like b2xxtorpedo.

Also his wakeups kinda suck when it comes to jumpins. For example if you do a basic shazam BnB ending with AC (ex. 22xxHM b3 j2 2 ac) and then do a forward j2, it'll hit him out of the invincibility of escrima fury if he wakes up with that, and you'll get an air to air combo if he wakes up with flipkick. Staff spin is weak against jump ins but sometimes the first hit will get you and do about 4%.

Only other advice I can give is really just basic NW shit (always save a bar for pushblock, block high in escrima and low in staff, learn how to get around ground blasts, know his frame traps, etc)
 
EGP Wonder_Chef

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
Chongo said:
Grayson is -3 on block. You can deal with it by crouching and d2'ing him as he flys over you (don't really know how good shazams uppercut is, so that might not be that great of an option) or you can whiff punish him after he lands (KF can spike, Aqua can ftd, etc). I would retest this, but it seems like he can block both b23 and torpedo. I would just do something like b2xxtorpedo.

Also his wakeups kinda suck when it comes to jumpins. For example if you do a basic shazam BnB ending with AC (ex. 22xxHM b3 j2 2 ac) and then do a forward j2, it'll hit him out of the invincibility of escrima fury if he wakes up with that, and you'll get an air to air combo if he wakes up with flipkick. Staff spin is weak against jump ins but sometimes the first hit will get you and do about 4%.

Only other advice I can give is really just basic NW shit (always save a bar for pushblock, block high in escrima and low in staff, learn how to get around ground blasts, know his frame traps, etc)
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if nw does wakeup staff spin and shazam does ac ender > j2 it doesn't work

there's nothing that Shazam can do to bait both of NW's wakeups, so he has to make a 33/33/33 guess when he knocks staff stance nightwing down
 
Chongo

Chongo

Dead Kings Rise
EGP Wonder_Chef said:
if nw does wakeup staff spin and shazam does ac ender > j2 it doesn't work

there's nothing that Shazam can do to bait both of NW's wakeups, so he has to make a 33/33/33 guess when he knocks staff stance nightwing down
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Well staff spin is -6, so maybe he could block low, and if nw does flying grayson b2 torpedo check, and if he does staff spin just make a read on what he's going to do?

You play Sajam a lot so you're probably right on this.
 
EGP Wonder_Chef

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
And to clarify:

If you think he will block - HM on his wakeup. If he does staff spin or flying greyson wakeup, they hit you.

If you think he will wakeup staff spin - Teleport through him. If he does nothing on wakeup he can punish you, if he does flying greyson he ends up full screen where he can zone you.

If you think he will wakeup flying greyson - crouch block in front of him. If he does nothing on wakeup you guys are sitting in his footsies range, if he does wakeup staff spin you eat chip and potentially have to deal with the mb version being plus on block.
 
EGP Wonder_Chef

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
Chongo said:
Well staff spin is -6, so maybe he could block low, and if nw does flying grayson b2 torpedo check, and if he does staff spin just make a read on what he's going to do?

You play Sajam a lot so you're probably right on this.
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I don't think I've ever played this matchup with him, but I understand the oki game well at least.

Also if he has meter he can MB the staff spin obviously
 
Chongo

Chongo

Dead Kings Rise
EGP Wonder_Chef said:
I don't think I've ever played this matchup with him, but I understand the oki game well at least.

Also if he has meter he can MB the staff spin obviously
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Well if you block a MB staff spin on wakeup he can either do 1xxground blast which is +9 and ends with a low or 2 which is an overhead and -4. 2 is like 23 frames, so you can block high on reaction. If I do 1xxgb then I'm out of range to pressure you with 1 again. If I read a backdash I can flying grayson and punish you.
 
Indecisive

Indecisive

We'll burn you all—that is your fate!
Error said:
I'm guessing Sinestro is also a bad MU for Shazam?
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Its a 6-4 sinestro. The zoning is a pain in the ass to deal with. But Sinestro has terrible WU options to deal with Shazam. Kinda like you need to stay in that ass. And if he gets trait it is pretty much over for the most part unless the sinestro plater wastes it and you get back in. Raven also sucks as well
 
KC H0oKsw0rds

KC H0oKsw0rds

iK A B A L
After about 10 mins of dabbling with flying grayson, I found a few ways to deal with it on wake up with Shazam. Depends or your ender. These are on read of course.

AC ender- You don't have much time to move after AC because of recovery so either instant jump back 1 into HM. Also dodges other staff WUs. Or if you feel really ballsy AA d1 point blank into 22, f12, or naked HM.

Sweep- Jump back anything. This will make them think twice when you jump back 3 HM b3 j3 AC for 43% or continue and mb the AC into ender for 50%

HM ender, footsie range and neutral game- Be ducking here while they FG over your head, d2 as stated in above posts is your go to option. But if it whiffs, catch them quick with a b23 combo for a nice 40% chunk.
 
RNLDRGN

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
ISF_AWG_Indecisive said:
Its not a 9-1
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Dude I find Raven to be a way better matchup for Shazam than Sinestro or NW. Granted, Raven's zoning can give you a headache--but if you can dash & block your way to close the distance before she teleports away with trait--her normals and wakeups are so bad you should be able to take a lifebar. She doesnt have the speed of NW nor the IAaxe of Sinestro to mess with you. Honestly, I've never had a problem with this matchup. I've also not played too many awesome Ravens or very zoning heavy Ravens--which is I guess how she should be played here.
 
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