Seriously... Something needs to be done about the pokes

[Marlow]

How do pokes in MK11 compare to pokes in SFV, Guilty Gear, KI, or Tekken? I havn't played Tekken (and 3D can be it's own thing at times anyways) but I thought pokes in those games are fairly similar to how pokes seem to function in MK11.

I feel like the game offers enough options on how to deal with pokes or someone mashing D2, so even if I'm not able to deal with it consistently at least there are options that I could work on in Practice mode to eventually learn to beat people who mash pokes.

 

[scrubjesus111]

Not broken. Just irritating and messy. I like the word @scarsunseen used, "scrambley". OP's first two options would fix that.

 

[Second Saint]

D'Vorah has a 19 frame Mid and she can still play the game fine.

The pokes in this game are indeed ugly but they are not at all broken.

The game is a popularity contest when it comes to players opinions of how characters and their tools should work.

For instance, if we are technically speaking, if D1 xx Rising Star was so broken that same conversation would need to be extended to Frost's D1 xx Blade Spin or even worse Raiden's D1 xx Electric Burst (which is an actual broken move in my opinion) or any other move like it, but watch a Raiden player justify it because "He needs it"

I don't want to agree with Gaxkang in some ways because he's not being particularly accountable for what he can do within his matches, but I do agree that latency does heavily affect punishment in this game.

Pokes are not at all broken, though. They're just annoying (especially online) and they do need a bit of adjustment, but even if a Kitana Diva wants to mention 13 frame Mid starters (which Sooo many of the cast have (or slower)
they need to accept characters with slower starters will struggle to 'set up' their hits without this system.

The unfortunate thing about this system is that it allows players with no intention of actually try to jail to mash more than they should.

NRS need to find a middle ground.

Also, please do not give every character an 11f Mid. Homogenisation aside it will push certain characters over the edge.

Feels strange to me that you're saying D'vorah plays the game just fine with a 19f mid when I would consider her the poster child of at least one of OP's claims. She's certainly a character designed around a poke~special mind game, and the only way she can even function with a 19f mid is by just not bothering hitconfirming her d1, because good luck hit confirming that AND hitting a 3f link to jail into her high. If you actually tried to use f2 here, you still get poked by the dedicated masher, since 19 - 10 = 9.

Other than the lack of hit advantage, I think her d1 is a good example of what people seem to want. -6 on block, 16f recovery, 8f startup, etc. Reasonable on block, actually whiff punishable, but she can still do things after a blocked poke, though that's not because of the frames. It's purely due to conditioning from d1~special. I'm personally a fan of the poke~special as a tool for a character to have, but I understand that it can be genuinely infuriating to play against. It's just not all that fun.

I would be entirely behind a universal hit advantage buff, whiff recovery increase, and -6 being the least a poke can be on block.

 

[Marinjuana]

Meter building in this game is also a big negative factor imo. Again, back in MK9 and MKX, meter had to be EARNED. There were even certain strings which could earn you extra meter during combos or blockstrings.

Yeah but there was also various cases of character out meter gaining others where they would have greater access to system mechanics like wakeups and combo breakers. It also encouraged spam as a projectile not thrown is meter not gained. The MK11 system stops all of that.

Not that their system couldn't be improved, other games make it work with similar systems, but NRS had 4 games with the "MK9" style meter and in four games you could point to some terrible matchups where the meter system was favoring one character over the other.

 

[Jbog]

Agree the block recovery sucks and is totally inconsistent

 

[scrubjesus111]

I felt ambivalent before but after just now playing in the last night of Sweat League with everyone racing to demigod .... I feel passionately one way. There are definitely characters who can get away with mindlessly stringing together any combination of pokes. If I see another 7f low that's -3 on block I am going to barf.

Joker and Frost are +15 off of d1. Both have a 4f window to confirm their 11f mids while most characters have 2f to commit to a high and risk getting blown up from a d2KB. Between +12 and 15 should be the norm for hit advantage, between -5 and -8 on block.

 

[Metzos]

Yeah but there was also various cases of character out meter gaining others where they would have greater access to system mechanics like wakeups and combo breakers. It also encouraged spam as a projectile not thrown is meter not gained. The MK11 system stops all of that.

Not that their system couldn't be improved, other games make it work with similar systems, but NRS had 4 games with the "MK9" style meter and in four games you could point to some terrible matchups where the meter system was favoring one character over the other.

I agree. They could have tuned the meter building with projectiles and blockstrings for some characters back then (Sonya, Cyrax, Kabal, Kenshi etc) but still the meter building system back then was more unforgiving (in a good way) than it is now. Right now it doesnt matter that much if you break early mid or late cause you ll get that meter back anyway.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I agree. They could have tuned the meter building with projectiles and blockstrings for some characters back then (Sonya, Cyrax, Kabal, Kenshi etc) but still the meter building system back then was more unforgiving (in a good way) than it is now. Right now it doesnt matter that much if you break early mid or late cause you ll get that meter back anyway.

The difference is that at least now it's the same for everyone, whereas back then it heavily favored certain characters and there was nothing you can do about that.

Whether or not you like it, it makes more sense that everyone plays by the same rules, whatever they are. Because having to get in on Zod or Aquaman or MK9 Kabal/Kenshi while they build multiple sticks of meter, so that they can do whatever they want to get you out once you're in, was pretty silly.

Characters like Aquaman showed that it wasn't just zoners -- it was whoever had a mechanic that let them safely build meter at will.

 

[MR_Footloose]

I can't believe it's been like almost 1 year and pokes in this game are still messed up.

A lot of pokes in this game are like -3 -4 -5 on block with a very little blockstun, on hit not plus enough and some of them low profiles. This make pokes extremely hard to hit confirm leading to the ugly things that we are seeing in this game - poke into poke, poke into jump, poke into backdash, poke straight up into string, poke into specials... The counter poke in this game is very ugly

"Ohhh but this only works on scrubs" "ohhh but this only works at online"

BULLSHIT

Last month I played the Liga Latina and I made top 5 in Brazil and the other day top 5 in Latin America and pokes were being scrubby EXACTLY like on online. Even I was using pokes in the scrubby way and guess what... It was working lmaaoo i was doing a lot poke into string and not even hit confirming it if it hit my opponent or block cause untill you try to hit confirm it you already lost some precious hit adv frames to jail your stuffs and they're so little negative on block with very little blockstun that my opponents a lot of time couldn't react that they blocked my pokes.

Here's what I propose to fix pokes in this game:

1 - more negative frames on block. Make ALL pokes at least -7 on block

2 - more positive frames on hit. Make ALL pokes at least +15 on hit.

3 - no more pokes into specials EXCEPT command grabs/tick throws

4 - reduce the pushback on pokes on block so it will prevent pokes into backdash

5. Remaster MK9

 

[Metzos]

The difference is that at least now it's the same for everyone, whereas back then it heavily favored certain characters and there was nothing you can do about that.

Whether or not you like it, it makes more sense that everyone plays by the same rules, whatever they are. Because having to get in on Zod or Aquaman or MK9 Kabal/Kenshi while they build multiple sticks of meter, so that they can do whatever they want to get you out once you're in, was pretty silly.

Characters like Aquaman showed that it wasn't just zoners -- it was whoever had a mechanic that let them safely build meter at will.

Cant argue with what you said. But then you should stop and think for a second why they didnt keep the same mechanics as pretty much every fighting game out there and focused more on character balancing issues and core mechanics of the game.

 

[THTB]

Cant argue with what you said. But then you should stop and think for a second why they didnt keep the same mechanics as pretty much every fighting game out there and focused more on character balancing issues and core mechanics of the game.

My theory on why NRS took this route...

The biggest problem with NRS's meter game has been the defensive applications, namely the combo breaking mechanic. NRS pushes players to be more active and to apply pressure, while not overly penalizing being hit (since chip on everything is a factor as is for taking damage). Thus why meter gain for landing hits is much lower than using specials and having attacks blocked, or not gaining meter for landing attacks at all. You're also given so much meter from the best building options, you're encouraged to use it fairly freely. It's very unique and fits NRS games in a vacuum, but becomes a problem in balancing because characters playing matchups where they struggle to get going due to being unable to build meter basically without taking actual hits, and the character able to build meter well is even harder to beat because of the defensive mechanics NRS implements.

Instead of just switching to traditional meter design and having the same problem pop up regardless, the switch to auto-regen meter removes this problem, while still encouraging free use of meter. This is part of the reason MK11 feels a bit more balanced in a number of people's eyes. You aren't put at such a disadvantage for your character struggling to build meter safely within the match. Being disciplined in basic defense is (on paper) much safer because of this, too. It basically balances the scale without having to completely compromise character or mechanical designs as a whole.

 

[appo]

How do pokes in MK11 compare to pokes in SFV, Guilty Gear, KI, or Tekken? I havn't played Tekken (and 3D can be it's own thing at times anyways) but I thought pokes in those games are fairly similar to how pokes seem to function in MK11.

I feel like the game offers enough options on how to deal with pokes or someone mashing D2, so even if I'm not able to deal with it consistently at least there are options that I could work on in Practice mode to eventually learn to beat people who mash pokes.

low pokes work the same in tekken as in mk11 as in that you dont get any combos out of it but you can check your opponents to interrupt what they do and gaining then + frames so that its your turn. overall mk 11 leans more into the 3d realm of fighters then the usuall 2d fighting games. forward advancing strings with variations to them, ducking throws, the way pokes work. its very similar to tekken.

in sf/ki you can get a combo out of crouching jab but usually you go for a light kick low to open up people.

about options against the low poke...block, its then your turn or dont get into its range and whiffpunish.

 

[Yousef]

I can't understand you guys , cage is safe ???
Come on
Everything he does is punishable
Especially the nutpunch even online just get yourself together and punish him instantly, he can be annoying with pokes but come on if he poke crazy just wait him out block his poke and poke back it's easy
And he has nothing to offer once you block low all the time
I'm a cage player and he is my main since mk4 and so far I'm not impressed with mk11 cage , you guy keep on claiming that he's top tier
Everything he does is reactable and slow and he has no mixups except for the risky throw
Just hit the practice or practice online with your friends and you'll get it

 

[SonicNinja3532]

I'd used D1 probably because at some point in the past I might have tried a high string and got D2ed comboed heh. D1 is fastest move. So online I see what D1 will hit.

Speaking of Scorpion's teleport have been times in the past where I blocked it and hit uppercut and it was safe. Other times it was fine.

But sure practicing with lag input on is a thing...I used that some back when I played Tekken and found some of the heavier lag input felt similar to some things i experienced online. Tekken players swore the online was perfect tho.

Just MK11 could just be better designed punishment-wise.

This all sounds like the words of someone who doesn’t know how to play the game. If you can’t punish nut punch, it is your fault. The ONLY exception is if the game actually lag spikes as it gets blocked (if the orange or red symbol pops up at the bottom of the screen) otherwise you’ve got no excuse. I play online the same way you do and yet I punish nut punch and teleport fine. It is 100% on you, not the game.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

or even worse Raiden's D1 xx Electric Burst

It has a gap.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

I can't understand you guys , cage is safe ???
Come on
Everything he does is punishable
Especially the nutpunch even online just get yourself together and punish him instantly, he can be annoying with pokes but come on if he poke crazy just wait him out block his poke and poke back it's easy
And he has nothing to offer once you block low all the time
I'm a cage player and he is my main since mk4 and so far I'm not impressed with mk11 cage , you guy keep on claiming that he's top tier
Everything he does is reactable and slow and he has no mixups except for the risky throw
Just hit the practice or practice online with your friends and you'll get it

Hi Yousef.

"Everything [Cage] does is punishable."

F344 is -2.
244 is -2.
121 is -7.
124 is +6.
34u3 is +6.
B34 is -7.

All these strings are safe or plus. The only character who can punish -7 moves is Raijin Raiden with his discharge.

"Just wait him out and block his poke and poke back."

If you add the absolute values of a poke's startup frames and it's block advantage, every poke in the game will add up to at least 11.
Except Johnny's d1. It's 7f and -3 on block. On hit it jails into s1 and s2.
D1~amp rising star is -5 with massive pushback.
It is gapless. You cannot block the d1 and flawless block the rising star.

"He has nothing to offer once you block low all the time."

Johnny has no overheads so yes, you might as well block him low.
If you neutral duck, the f3 goes over your head. But then b3 will hit you.
If you block low, b3 will be blocked. But then he can press f3 at will.
This is the basis of his offense in the neutral.

>"He has no mixups."

When he's +6 you are at his mercy.
After 124/34u3, he can f3.
If you try to duck the f3 he can do b3 or d4, or even jump in if he wants.

There are more layers to his offense than this, but that's the summary.
You should be very happy with Cage in MK11. Unless someone is being very persuasive about Upgraded Jacqui, Liu, Geras, or Cetrion, Johnny is probably the single best character in this game. Play more safely and take less risks. He's great at letting players do that.

 

[Yousef]

Hi Yousef.



F344 is -2.
244 is -2.
121 is -7.
124 is +6.
34u3 is +6.
B34 is -7.

All these strings are safe or plus. The only character who can punish -7 moves is Raijin Raiden with his discharge.



If you add the absolute values of a poke's startup frames and it's block advantage, every poke in the game will add up to at least 11.
Except Johnny's d1. It's 7f and -3 on block. On hit it jails into s1 and s2.
D1~amp rising star is -5 with massive pushback.
It is gapless. You cannot block the d1 and flawless block the rising star.



Johnny has no overheads so yes, you might as well block him low.
If you neutral duck, the f3 goes over your head. But then b3 will hit you.
If you block low, b3 will be blocked. But then he can press f3 at will.
This is the basis of his offense in the neutral.

>"He has no mixups."

When he's +6 you are at his mercy.
After 124/34u3, he can f3.
If you try to duck the f3 he can do b3 or d4, or even jump in if he wants.

There are more layers to his offense than this, but that's the summary.
You should be very happy with Cage in MK11. Unless someone is being very persuasive about Upgraded Jacqui, Liu, Geras, or Cetrion, Johnny is probably the single best character in this game. Play more safely and take less risks. He's great at letting players do that.

You seriously made me laugh but I get it
I understand alit of players tell me that when I play online thinking that I play cage cuz he's good (actually I'm not happy with him ) , cage is my main ever since mk4
Anyway
I'll tell you something
Pokes are kinda stupid in this game and I get alot of poke spammers and I suffer since cage has no fast mids
F3 : uppercut no matter what the follow up is duck it , I saw some people even punish me with a full combo with a good connection
His plus frames ( rising star and 124 ) just block it dude no need for flowless block after the block there will be some distance between u and him use it or just simply jump NJ or forward jump that's why I said all he does is punishable as long as you're safe which you're since there is no reason to block high anyway 50:50 him into a combo , and don't play with a bad connection , whatever he does there is a gap there use it , I can't get u guys I'm not a professional player and I know that he sucks

 

[Zviko]

You seriously made me laugh but I get it
I understand alit of players tell me that when I play online thinking that I play cage cuz he's good (actually I'm not happy with him ) , cage is my main ever since mk4
Anyway
I'll tell you something
Pokes are kinda stupid in this game and I get alot of poke spammers and I suffer since cage has no fast mids
F3 : uppercut no matter what the follow up is duck it , I saw some people even punish me with a full combo with a good connection
His plus frames ( rising star and 124 ) just block it dude no need for flowless block after the block there will be some distance between u and him use it or just simply jump NJ or forward jump that's why I said all he does is punishable as long as you're safe which you're since there is no reason to block high anyway 50:50 him into a combo , and don't play with a bad connection , whatever he does there is a gap there use it , I can't get u guys I'm not a professional player and I know that he sucks

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a dup account made just for trolling Johnny "haters".

 

[Yousef]

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a dup account made just for trolling Johnny "haters".

Hahaha no no
I'm a Johnny player I'm just telling you how to beat him , just react to the pokes once he lands his and u block poke back , if he starts throwing rising star after that start throwing a fast mid special move of your own

 

[John_NX]

You seriously made me laugh but I get it
I understand alit of players tell me that when I play online thinking that I play cage cuz he's good (actually I'm not happy with him ) , cage is my main ever since mk4
Anyway
I'll tell you something
Pokes are kinda stupid in this game and I get alot of poke spammers and I suffer since cage has no fast mids
F3 : uppercut no matter what the follow up is duck it , I saw some people even punish me with a full combo with a good connection
His plus frames ( rising star and 124 ) just block it dude no need for flowless block after the block there will be some distance between u and him use it or just simply jump NJ or forward jump that's why I said all he does is punishable as long as you're safe which you're since there is no reason to block high anyway 50:50 him into a combo , and don't play with a bad connection , whatever he does there is a gap there use it , I can't get u guys I'm not a professional player and I know that he sucks

Sure, try to jump after his 124. You'll be greeted by his F3.

 

[Metzos]

"Johnny Cage is not that good". Ok i m done with this site.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Hi Yousef.



F344 is -2.
244 is -2.
121 is -7.
124 is +6.
34u3 is +6.
B34 is -7.

All these strings are safe or plus. The only character who can punish -7 moves is Raijin Raiden with his discharge.



If you add the absolute values of a poke's startup frames and it's block advantage, every poke in the game will add up to at least 11.
Except Johnny's d1. It's 7f and -3 on block. On hit it jails into s1 and s2.
D1~amp rising star is -5 with massive pushback.
It is gapless. You cannot block the d1 and flawless block the rising star.



Johnny has no overheads so yes, you might as well block him low.
If you neutral duck, the f3 goes over your head. But then b3 will hit you.
If you block low, b3 will be blocked. But then he can press f3 at will.
This is the basis of his offense in the neutral.

>"He has no mixups."

When he's +6 you are at his mercy.
After 124/34u3, he can f3.
If you try to duck the f3 he can do b3 or d4, or even jump in if he wants.

There are more layers to his offense than this, but that's the summary.
You should be very happy with Cage in MK11. Unless someone is being very persuasive about Upgraded Jacqui, Liu, Geras, or Cetrion, Johnny is probably the single best character in this game. Play more safely and take less risks. He's great at letting players do that.

At his mercy? You literally named all the options you could counter the JC player with.

You can duck, neutral jump, back dash, certain pokes will beat some of his follow ups.

The pushback on 124 gives you plenty of options against it, hardly what I would claim to be “at someone’s mercy.”

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Sure, try to jump after his 124. You'll be greeted by his F3.

Or he could go for b3 and you can get a full combo, or instead of jumping you could DUCK and get KB FULL KOMBO.

sheesh man, I’m not saying Cage isn’t good but I’m tired of people making 124/forceballs out to be like it’s MK9 f3.

 

[Yousef]

Sure, try to jump after his 124. You'll be greeted by his F3.

Not Everytime , if u time it right , or forward jump if you don't wanna get caught
People always counter me like this ultimately you have to count on your reads
For
F344: jump forward and punish him or well timed uppercut
b34 : NJP and a full combo
Most cage players for this lol
He'll even I hated myself for telling u this
If we meet online don't do this to me please

 

[Yousef]

"Johnny Cage is not that good". Ok i m done with this site.

I'm a cage player and I literally just kicked his ass in a mirror match online ( Jcage vs Jcage ) with no mixups , and he wasn't that bad ,just used what I'm telling u to do
When u watch the match of Sonicfox or ninjakilla , those matches are full of respect ,no poke fight like cats and no spamming teleports or any other spamming
Everybody thinks that he's godlike or whatever
But he's actually full of flaws and sucks if they take away his useless pressure tools and give him an overhead and some practical kbs I'll be very happy
**He has no mixups
**No practical kbs
**No fast mids
All people are crying about his strings and his pressure which u can literally just poke ur way out of it