Scorpion General Discussion

[M2Dave]

2. Scorpion can punish b1,1+3 with b2 leading to full combo.

Correct. Just beware of max range b+1,1+3 as the first hit of b+2 whiffs.

Noob has krushing blows on both throws, but there is no mid-screen okizeme on either one. So if you have the life lead, I suggest not teching. You will take 14% of damage, but you will be out of harm's way, which is better than teching wrong and eating 31% on the next throw. A combo that ends in a re-stand followed by a krushing blow throw deals massive damage.

I agree with you that Scorpion most likely has the advantage in this match. Aside from the Noob's excellent damage output, he is limited. There is not much he can do to threaten Scorpion who has superior mobility, throws, staggers, etc.

 

[Hor_PeT]

I was 100% mopped by Skarlet with Scorpion. He was pretty good player though (top 500 and 80% win rate - maybe you are better but not me ) - very annoying heavy neutral, crazy corner game like in the book. Maximum efficient jab anti air punish, delay wake up, etc.

I could not even teleport on reaction her zoning either - tentacle is lol for that.
And I could not really approach her properly as outranged pretty easily.

How the hell should be played the match up?
It was my first Skarlet set though so maybe no surprise to downplay against a player who knows everything about the match up.

I was beaten to 3 : 30 maybe lol and he commentated his play to his audience probably my humiliation was streamed. But I kept playing to learn the match up but could not really figured.

I will analyze the last 10 matches. I had a one week break with Scorpion and unknown match up and tired (but against my brand new Cassie it was even worse). But no excuse just salt. At least it was good to play against a good opponent who mopped me up.
Just I had no real game plan which bothers me.

Can you help a bit for the next time I ever face a Skarlet?
With flawless block I was pretty lazy only did few times. I was pretty busy with everyhing else. And practiced it weeks ago.

I try to play with him again after a bit preparation. But I do not know if it is worth the effort. Probably it should as that makes us better player.

 

[Hor_PeT]

Well I watched the replays and I was simply bad and frustrated (I should have slept instead but simply refused and played in bad shape).

Do not do the same mistakes...I need to work on this too (and rest more).

1. He jumped a lot but I did not anti air (I had simply close to no reaction besides few D2 - was too paralized by watching his next move) - when I jumped I ate full combo most of the case.
2. He jumped a lot up close too for an escape and B14 whiffed (B1 hit) - and with inputting B14xxtele on hitconfirm (or in frustration) I ate full combos for it many times.
3. When I switched my offense to F3 instead of B1 I did not convert the up close anti jump - just rarely.
4. He turtled good enough and walk back whiff punish did not work at all: or ate full combo by jump-whiffed B14. I just could not adept to the situation properly however I could throw him a lot - but it was not good enough - I was frustrated dropping B14 after many whiffes so no combo starter - F32 worked for both jump+button press but insane risk - he woke up many forward rolls + U3 too + delayed wake up. My oki game was just not prepared to this this time.
   He constantly walked back and I could not adept with my defensive mentality. We walked to the corner and he teleported out freely. And most of the time I was cornered into his pressure and die. That's insane...
5. Dropped combos, bad hitconfirms (but he missed punish teleports many times too).
6. I could not punish his tentacle zoning at all - probably I should have jumped around a lot not just walking him down - but he was turtling and anti airing pretty well.

Like I was frustrated and freezed most of the time.
And still there were many close matches just I was tricked in the crucial moments by a wake up jump, forward roll, etc.

I do not really feel the game plan but probably with fixing the issues above could have result much better play.
It was a really wrong time to play a Skarlet like this instead of resting. Lot of salt could have been avoided.
And need more match experience. With zero it just sux. After few hundred matches it starts going good.

 

[M2Dave]

@Hor_PeT , you should be using Reborn versus Skarlet. The canceled teleport gives your anti-zoning game additional options. Besides, you have the ability to hit-confirm single hits into EX teleport and retreat after blocked strings to avoid being pressured.

Only use f+3 on an opponent's wake up. f+3 is safe against tech rolling and delayed wake up. In fact, you can whiff f+3 on delayed wake up and still check your opponent with d+1. 1,1 is solid and can also be used on wake up, but there are more recovery frames on whiff. f+3 is the reason why all Scorpion players ought to be playing Reborn. If opponents neutral crouch after waking up expecting a throw, you can hit-confirm f+3 into EX teleport. In Searing Rage, you have to take unfavorable risks with f+3,2 and b+1,4,3.

As you already stated, jumping is good against tentacle because of its limited vertical hitbox. If you are in the air and see the move whiff, react and punish with EX teleport. When a tentacle hits, the following one must be blocked. You cannot jump out or teleport, even full screen away.

By the way, 1,2,4, f+4,3, and b+3,4 are Skarlet's strings that can be flawless blocked although none of them are advantage on block. f+4,3 is arguably the most prevalent one and f+4 to throw is commonly used once you start flawless blocking f+4,3. However, there some gimmicks with f+4,3 xx parry.

4,4 is +6 with no gap, but you want to block the second hit standing to increase the push back.

She has throws that function identically to Noob's. Both forward and back throw have krushing blows but offer no mid-screen okizeme. So if you have the life lead, I suggest not teching.

I think Skarlet is a strong character, but Scorpion forces all zoning characters to play at a much closer range than they would like to. With adequate match up experience, I would reasonably presume the match should be even or in Scorpion's favor.

 

[Hor_PeT]

@Hor_PeT , you should be using Reborn versus Skarlet. The canceled teleport gives your anti-zoning game additional options. Besides, you have the ability to hit-confirm single hits into EX teleport and retreat after blocked strings to avoid being pressured.

Only use f+3 on an opponent's wake up. f+3 is safe against tech rolling and delayed wake up. In fact, you can whiff f+3 on delayed wake up and still check your opponent with d+1. 1,1 is solid and can also be used on wake up, but there are more recovery frames on whiff. f+3 is the reason why all Scorpion players ought to be playing Reborn. If opponents neutral crouch after waking up expecting a throw, you can hit-confirm f+3 into EX teleport. In Searing Rage, you have to take unfavorable risks with f+3,2 and b+1,4,3.

As you already stated, jumping is good against tentacle because of its limited vertical hitbox. If you are in the air and see the move whiff, react and punish with EX teleport. When a tentacle hits, the following one must be blocked. You cannot jump out or teleport, even full screen away.

By the way, 1,2,4, f+4,3, and b+3,4 are Skarlet's strings that can be flawless blocked although none of them are advantage on block. f+4,3 is arguably the most prevalent one and f+4 to throw is commonly used once you start flawless blocking f+4,3. However, there some gimmicks with f+4,3 xx parry.

4,4 is +6 with no gap, but you want to block the second hit standing to increase the push back.

She has throws that function identically to Noob's. Both forward and back throw have krushing blows but offer no mid-screen okizeme. So if you have the life lead, I suggest not teching.

I think Skarlet is a strong character, but Scorpion forces all zoning characters to play at a much closer range than they would like to. With adequate match up experience, I would reasonably presume the match should be even or in Scorpion's favor.

Thank you for the advices. I am labbing Skarlet but need to go to work.
You wrote extra things I did not take it account yet!

I figured some of her options mentioned above already (probably need few hundred matched to get used to it) but she has many options to do safe chip so need to respect F2/B3 cancels mostly - well that is not a disaster just a thing.

Yes I had the feeling after the first 1-2 matches that Reborn is the go to variation but I just did not want to be that "Reborn noob" - as I already knew that Scorpion should be favored - I just wanted to beat her in footsie game but could not without proper match up knowledge and experience (and current shape).
She has better range for the same frame data (F2, B3 and F3 is same as Scorp's) and difficult to make her whiff punish at good range.

F3|B2 xx tele hitconfirm is pretty beyond my reaction time but "hitconfirm" is a go to dirt(?) which I also refused so far to use. But with Reborn it is a must of course.
Nowadays I rather prefer "real" footsies without tele-cancel help but of course that makes the life more difficult against a character like this.

With Searing Rage it should be even too with proper play - or not?
Unforunately B14 has the abusable weakness against jumps and many players realized it. Need to focus on F3 more. And with Searing Rage it is an extra risk taking over Reborn if I want combo launcher from it.

Currently I may stick to Searing Rage as to me it is the more honest (and footsie skill heavy) way to approach the game (teleport itself is already hated neutral killer) and that matters me more than the win.
It is obvious downplay if you can not really use his tools in a match up though.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Yeah I restand with 4 as well. It has the most damage with one of the highest hit advantages.

Been getting kinda bored of Scorpion though. If you’re playing a good player, it’s hard to open them up in Searing Rage. In Reborn his TP mixups are very good, but it’s really boring not gonna lie. Also in Searing Rage I have to play incredibly patiently with the life lead. It’s not worth the risk to pressure when you don’t need to since his only true mix is f3/f34/f3 throw stuff.

Who have you been playing? I need to diversify my competition a bit but I dont have many people to play.

Obviously I grab a lot and when people are good at teching I use that to open them up. I would just like to improve by dealing with great defense.

I rely on a lot of shimmy setups, d3 jail into 21 and etc. Its been working well for me against good players.

 

[AK Harold]

@Juggs come out to our locals if you are bored of playing online randoms. I dunno how you can stomach it. I sandbag so hard to find dumb ways to win now online lol.

 

[Hor_PeT]

In ranked you get better and better stat opponent, don't you? Is it still noobfest for you guys?

I rarely play with good people in Kasual - when I meet one I wrote 2 pages salt posts lol. I could probably improve with better players.
Unfortunately USA is too far away from my country (160-180 ping minimum) to be acceptable for "higher level" game.

But after yesterday matches I can learn from every people where I do not know the match up enough (or at all).

By the way against Skarlet I found that with delayed wake up you can make the 2nd tentacle check whiff. Not a big deal but 2% damage free chip.
And I realized that Skarlet's chest and arm a little beat lean forward and Scorpion's F3 can hit from even starting position. Wow...

 

[Juggs]

@Juggs come out to our locals if you are bored of playing online randoms. I dunno how you can stomach it. I sandbag so hard to find dumb ways to win now online lol.

Which locals and where?

 

[AK Harold]

Every Thursday 4o4 esports doraville

Every month +2 on block

Come get it

 

[MK9]

Who have you been playing? I need to diversify my competition a bit but I dont have many people to play.

Obviously I grab a lot and when people are good at teching I use that to open them up. I would just like to improve by dealing with great defense.

I rely on a lot of shimmy setups, d3 jail into 21 and etc. Its been working well for me against good players.

Scoot are u on Xbox or PS4

 

[M2Dave]

With Searing Rage it should be even too with proper play - or not?

I have no idea. I rarely use Searing Rage. The variation is unsafe and somewhat gimmicky in my opinion. I suggest you use Reborn and practice hit-confirming f+3 and b+2.

Currently I may stick to Searing Rage as to me it is the more honest (and footsie skill heavy) way to approach the game (teleport itself is already hated neutral killer) and that matters me more than the win.

Reborn is as honest and as footsies oriented as Searing Rage. The teleport is certainly a zoning killer yet hardly a neutral killer. There is this myth about the teleport ignoring the fundamental aspects of the game and allowing the worse player to win. The game has already had various online and offline tournaments since its release almost two months ago. I follow the tournament scene closely and the cases of unknown Scorpion players beating high level players with random teleports sits at precisely zero thus far.

 

[Hor_PeT]

I have no idea. I rarely use Searing Rage. The variation is unsafe and somewhat gimmicky in my opinion. I suggest you use Reborn and practice hit-confirming f+3 and b+2.



Reborn is as honest and as footsies oriented as Searing Rage. The teleport is certainly a zoning killer yet hardly a neutral killer. There is this myth about the teleport ignoring the fundamental aspects of the game and allowing the worse player to win. The game has already had various online and offline tournaments since its release almost two months ago. I follow the tournament scene closely and the cases of unknown Scorpion players beating high level players with random teleports sits at precisely zero thus far.

To be honest? I agree with you.

I played just a bit Reborn (with the same footsies gameplay as SR) but felt myself much more creative and free to play whatever I wanted.
Escape on block made me so confident (probably can be punished).

However I also found myself using tele cancel as a mix in hype moments (as I used in MKX) and I felt that I am just a "teleport noob" instead of being creative.
And also felt that I won because opponent could not manage teleport cancel - I am convinced lot of people do not, yet.

I already posted that I wanted to wait for few months until people learn Reborn match up then I go back not to be cheap.

So overall I felt more cheap and rather played with Searing Rage with massive downplaying as I rarely use his tools.
21 2+4 is good damage ender instead of 112 (+30-40) wow.
F32 is OH and therefore D3 stagger has more chance to hit the blocking opponent. But after labbing I realized that stagger only works if the opponent WANTS to block the F32-F34. If they read stagger no one save me from punish (I did it with Cassie against Scorpion with great success as 9F MID punished everything except F32-F34 but it is risk from Scorpion).

And of course F32 as combo launcher on mash or duck but it is massive risk taking on read.

On the other hand Reborn can punish "stagger" mashers with F34 and "punish" flawless blockers with stagger (throw is not guaranteed they can tech after FB timing I labbed it).
But the big advantage of Reborn is the F3 hitconfirm in situations where I read absolute mashing and with SR I "have to" use F32 (or F34 if KB).

Maybe now this is the time to start playing true Reborn and see what happens.
I was afraid of the fact that tele cancel makes me lazy ... But now as I play Cassie too I will not lose but improve my footsie skills overall.

Thanks for helping me.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Scoot are u on Xbox or PS4

I only play on ps4 currently.

 

[MK9]

I only play on ps4 currently.

Anyone else playing on the island?

 

[Scoot Magee]

Anyone else playing on the island?

Only a few of us that show up to the local at arena. Me, classy sasquatch and a few others. I know king raj plays as well but I've only seen him at tournaments.

Its surprising because a lot of people used to play when the games first came out but shits been kinda dead lately. Sucks because this mk is the best of the newer games.

 

[Matix218]

@M2Dave is there a trick to hit confirming f3/b2? I dont seem to be having much luck with it

 

[MK9]

Only a few of us that show up to the local at arena. Me, classy sasquatch and a few others. I know king raj plays as well but I've only seen him at tournaments.

Its surprising because a lot of people used to play when the games first came out but shits been kinda dead lately. Sucks because this mk is the best of the newer games.

I haven’t played offline yet, just about hit 4000 matches online.

 

[Slips]

I have no idea. I rarely use Searing Rage. The variation is unsafe and somewhat gimmicky in my opinion. I suggest you use Reborn and practice hit-confirming f+3 and b+2.



Reborn is as honest and as footsies oriented as Searing Rage. The teleport is certainly a zoning killer yet hardly a neutral killer. There is this myth about the teleport ignoring the fundamental aspects of the game and allowing the worse player to win. The game has already had various online and offline tournaments since its release almost two months ago. I follow the tournament scene closely and the cases of unknown Scorpion players beating high level players with random teleports sits at precisely zero thus far.

I'm still on the fence on which is better between SR and Reborn. The damage output on SR is serious. Significant more damage in combos and throws enhances all faucets of his game. His footsies are better in SR because a whiffed F3 commands more respect and allows him to get in easier. Death Spin as a round ender is nothing to scoff at either. Also F34 has more pushback when your opponent blocks it standing. Something SR forces them to do therefore enhancing the effectiveness of F34.

Reborn has option select off single hit moves like F3 and B2, better mobility and stage control vs everyone in the cast. More of a hit and run style that nobody can stop. Whereas SR is more of a traditional MK11 style and it works because of better footsie options, damage output, and Death Spin. He just has to guess right less often to win.

I'm still trying to learn both. You can't really go wrong with Reborn but I can pull off some quick wins with SR if I get a good beat on someone.

 

[M2Dave]

I'm still on the fence on which is better between SR and Reborn. The damage output on SR is serious. Significant more damage in combos and throws enhances all faucets of his game. His footsies are better in SR because a whiffed F3 commands more respect and allows him to get in easier. Death Spin as a round ender is nothing to scoff at either. Also F34 has more pushback when your opponent blocks it standing. Something SR forces them to do therefore enhancing the effectiveness of F34.

Reborn has option select off single hit moves like F3 and B2, better mobility and stage control vs everyone in the cast. More of a hit and run style that nobody can stop. Whereas SR is more of a traditional MK11 style and it works because of better footsie options, damage output, and Death Spin. He just has to guess right less often to win.

I'm still trying to learn both. You can't really go wrong with Reborn but I can pull off some quick wins with SR if I get a good beat on someone.

I agree with most your pro Searing Rage arguments, particularly about death spin as a round closer. Chipping opponents is difficult in this game because of the last breath mechanic. If you try to attack at the inappropriate time, you can potentially lose the round or match because of fatal blows. So death spin provides a guaranteed way to end a match without much risk.

My primary concern with Searing Rage is that you surrender safety for more damage output, which may or may not be desirable depending on the match up. I refuse to do f+3,2, which Scorpion in Searing Rage must eventually do, on characters like Baraka, Geras, Noob, and Sonya for obvious reasons. The risk is not worth the reward. I had much rather play a safe hit and run style with Reborn, as you alluded to.

Tournament results and data thus far also suggest that Reborn is the superior variation. If I recall correctly, RZA is the only high level Scorpion player who has had some success with Searing Rage. Everyone else is using Reborn.

 

[Hor_PeT]

For competitive pocket Scorpion (e.g. Scar) Reborn looks more viable because Scorpion is mostly used in the match ups where Reborn is superior over Searing Rage.
For Scorpion mains both variations can be good as there are situations where Searing Rage can be a stronger pick (or if the player is more comfortable with the traditional way).


With SR you can play not to surrender safety for damage output (but rather damage output for footsie tools) if you only think about the pros of the footsie Pros of SR (need blocking high, potential F32 on F3 whiff - nah that's gimmicky as if you never do the opponent should not respect it but if you do it at least once to get the respect it is a risk ).

Just maybe in situations where Reborn could combo off F3xxtele (or B2xx tele) SR can not without risk (or just get an F34).

In that case SR can go for the safe B14 instead of F3 but against jump abusers it is also an extra risk which would not happen with Reborn who does F3xx tele.

It is difficult to break down all the situations.
When I meet a guy who jumps a lot I automatically forget about B14 and use F3 and on ground hit I lose damage but win more plus frames.

F3 is +15 on hit so on hit at least B14 jails and he can not jump out.
Hm I should use it more I just realized it now. But against jumpers it is a tight link as first you need to hitconfirm the F3 on the ground (so not juggle combo) and you already lost the jail opportunity. It happenned me many times and even ate full combo as I did not stop at B14 but hitconfirmed a mini juggled hit.
During walk back B14 whiff punish attempt i experienced many jumps too and rip b14.

I like how Searing Rage is designed for MK11 (yes good expression was: "traditional MK11 character") - but Reborn is much more clean with his tools (clean means now: extra gimmicky and risky tools removed so you are forced to play safely - except the teleport mixups which can be as risk as F32).

 

[Slips]

I agree with most your pro Searing Rage arguments, particularly about death spin as a round closer. Chipping opponents is difficult in this game because of the last breath mechanic. If you try to attack at the inappropriate time, you can potentially lose the round or match because of fatal blows. So death spin provides a guaranteed way to end a match without much risk.

My primary concern with Searing Rage is that you surrender safety for more damage output, which may or may not be desirable depending on the match up. I refuse to do f+3,2, which Scorpion in Searing Rage must eventually do, on characters like Baraka, Geras, Noob, and Sonya for obvious reasons. The risk is not worth the reward. I had much rather play a safe hit and run style with Reborn, as you alluded to.

Tournament results and data thus far also suggest that Reborn is the superior variation. If I recall correctly, RZA is the only high level Scorpion player who has had some success with Searing Rage. Everyone else is using Reborn.

I agree. It's interesting all the Scorp hate yet tournament results suggest otherwise lol. I just think he's a good character who also happens to be a potent scrub killer since he controls the pace of most matchups.

For me so far the matchups where spear gets punished hard even at further distances I like Reborn more. Characters like Geras, Jacqui, Liu Kang, ect. You can counter the incentive they have on waiting to block a spear with a fake tele to press them. But the matchups where spear has a higher reward than risk I like SR more. You still control the pace and you do more damage.

 

[Hor_PeT]

I agree. It's interesting all the Scorp hate yet tournament results suggest otherwise lol. I just think he's a good character who also happens to be a potent scrub killer since he controls the pace of most matchups.

For me so far the matchups where spear gets punished hard even at further distances I like Reborn more. Characters like Geras, Jacqui, Liu Kang, ect. You can counter the incentive they have on waiting to block a spear with a fake tele to press them. But the matchups where spear has a higher reward than risk I like SR more. You still control the pace and you do more damage.

Do you do DS ender spacing BS setup combos?
So far I refused it over oki but sometimes I regret it as it could give more edge and sense to SR besides the good corner carry mid screen.

 

[Slips]

Do you do DS ender spacing BS setup combos?
So far I refused it over oki but sometimes I regret it as it could give more edge and sense to SR besides the good corner carry mid screen.

I do if my Burning Spear is active and if:

• I'm playing a character that I want to stay away from
• I know my Burning Spear timer is about to deplete

 

[NaughtySenpai]

I'm making the switch to Reborn.
Haven't played nothing but Reborn last couple of days except for the Sonya matchup, since she can't punish a properly spaced Death Spin.

What annoys me is relearning all the combos, and dropping all the kb ones but whatever. It's better than grinding towers all day.