General/Other - Ronin Ronin block infinite "analysis"

[MrProfDrPepper]

@MrProfDrPepper

"Leave this in the game... Buff the characters he does this to"

*Looks at list*
*Can see Kenshi listed*

You main kenshi and want him buffed to deal with this rather then deal with the BS takeda has ?
yea... I see where you are going with this...

You are just not to be taken seriously.. I see...

Wow I'm sorry for being tired. I said that as a compromise but even then I was tired and forgot that erron black and Kitana were in there too. But Jesus Christ the amount of disrespect. Also if ronin Takeda outranged so many people then I might agree with you but this is ronin, not lasher or shirai ryu. It doesn't have batshit insane range. It just has good range, if it was a psuedo unlockable from damn near everywhere on the screen I would have a problem but as it stands there is a way for each of those characters to get out of it. So I think people are over reacting juuuust a bit with this, I don't think this makes ronin batshit insane. I think it is just some dirt. And as I said, meter management goes a long way, if you are am idiot and just waste your meter willy nilly so that when you do get hit you got nothing, then you deserve it. This is a match up where you always need at least a bar. So meter building is an important factor in the match up. It is how the match up goes. Just like how one changes their offense or defense depending on the match up, it should be expected to treat your meter differently for each match up. If there was absolutely zero way for these characters to get out. I would have a problem, but there is, so I think it is just silly and a massive over reaction to this specific dirt that he has on 5 characters.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Hence why you need to manage your meter carefully. I know this is a death wish for my main character but I think this is fine and should stay. Refer to my other posts as to why I think it is fine.

Meter management is more than just saving meter to armour out of frame traps, thats a pretty poor way to manage it if you ask me. Souly spending meter on a gamble.

It's not right for any character to be chipped to death because they dont have a bar.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Meter management is more than just saving meter to armour out of frame traps, thats a pretty poor way to manage it if you ask me. Souly spending meter on a gamble.

It's not right for any character to be chipped to death because they dont have a bar.

I know it is more than that, way more so. But in this specific match up that is what it is as i said changing per Match up. I understand where all you guys are coming from but I respectfully disagree, I only think this kind of thing is unfair if there is absolutely no way out and you are completely trapped.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I know it is more than that, way more so. But in this specific match up that is what it is as i said changing per Match up. I understand where all you guys are coming from but I respectfully disagree, I only think this kind of thing is unfair if there is absolutely no way out and you are completely trapped.

Say you're character X, you have 1 bar, you use it to get damage off of a hit confirm. You guess wrong on an opponents wakeup, and now you're block infinited to death. Fair?

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Say you're character X, you have 1 bar, you use it to get damage off of a hit confirm. You guess wrong on an opponents wakeup, and now you're block infinited to death. Fair?

I believe so, yes, you need to know what character you are dealing with. And change your strategies for how you use your meter. It is your job to make sure you always keep at least one bar in that match up, even if it means sacraficing damage.

 

[looktotheluna]

Pseudo block infinite's or any kind of infinite's for that matter should never be allowed and therefore be removed. End of story

 

[aieches]

I don't think any block infinite should be in the game and the reason is because a good defense is not really rewarded in this game in the first place. so this turns unfair.

that being said i think it should be adjusted a bit but def not too much . Ronin should def be able to keep the pressure he has - (Esp when the pressure it self is not brain dead) cause thats what most feel this variation is about. BUT, it def should not include a block infinite on any characters . and this is coming from someone who is trying to take every variation of takeda as serious as possible. like i said before- having dirt is okay but block infinities are too much.

 

[buyacushun]

You know, we're quick to blame testers for not catching stuff like this before it's released. But at a certain point, you have to blame designers for not doing the basic math. It's not a weird thing for players to try-b212+4 blade drop f122+4 quick call.

I guess I just don't understand the basic design philosophy at play here (if there even is one). Paulo and co. are going to great pains to nerf (and in many cases OVER-nerf) so that characters can't do this kind of pressure, and then grants it to Takeda on a silver platter without even any stamina requirements.

NRS needs to hire a guy who will sit down and do the goddamn math.

That'd be great but I doubt NRS will ever do that. They seem to be more of a slightly test then use the "wonderful" hotfix system type. I mean DLC characters get released with shit not working. Sometimes it feels like they just test to see if attacks happen and the correct reaction happens. Then they just check it off.

 

[lietomyface]

Wow I'm sorry for being tired. I said that as a compromise but even then I was tired and forgot that erron black and Kitana were in there too. But Jesus Christ the amount of disrespect. Also if ronin Takeda outranged so many people then I might agree with you but this is ronin, not lasher or shirai ryu. It doesn't have batshit insane range. It just has good range, if it was a psuedo unlockable from damn near everywhere on the screen I would have a problem but as it stands there is a way for each of those characters to get out of it. So I think people are over reacting juuuust a bit with this, I don't think this makes ronin batshit insane. I think it is just some dirt. And as I said, meter management goes a long way, if you are am idiot and just waste your meter willy nilly so that when you do get hit you got nothing, then you deserve it. This is a match up where you always need at least a bar. So meter building is an important factor in the match up. It is how the match up goes. Just like how one changes their offense or defense depending on the match up, it should be expected to treat your meter differently for each match up. If there was absolutely zero way for these characters to get out. I would have a problem, but there is, so I think it is just silly and a massive over reaction to this specific dirt that he has on 5 characters.

''Also if ronin Takeda outranged so many people then I might agree with you but this is ronin, not lasher or shirai ryu.''

Sir, you need to get the game on PC and have some games with Mr. Hayatei over here. I think you're giving arguments without having truly faced a good Ronin Takeda.

 

[The Celebrity]

As a Ronin player... if they just remove 2 cancels frames from B21(2+4), I think its completely fine. The move itself is still safe on block that way, not affected there, and not to mention using blade drop after still leaves you plus after a Overhead->Low->Mid string. Its still going to be really good, the 5 characters that get trapped by it won't anymore, and if they want to give something back to Ronin to even it out, give us an extra hit advantage frame on DF3 so our vortex and zoning game improves just slightly.

 

[DrFolmer]

Then you rethink your strategies and reconsider weather or not you should break. You have to adapt to how you use your meter per Match up. Bedsides for massively meter dependent characters breaking isn't a very good option most the time anyways. As well as knowing how to fight match ups I believe knowing how to spend your meter for each match up is just as important as how you attack offensively or keep them out. Part of where the mind games and complexity of meter management and Mkx in general. As I said before though this is just how I see the game. Meter management and dependency has always been very very important to me.

I see what you're getting at, but that would require that damage values should be increased for certain characters. Problem is that not all characters are insane at building meter, and at the same time these characters require a lot of meter in order to get damage that are on par with other characters' damage. I don't expect a guy like Jason to just have a ton of meter, whereas the kitana player can easily build meter from a distance. It would be alright if Takeda himself had to use meter at certain points in order to continue the loop.

I agree that careless meter management should have its consequences, but I still feel bad for some characters who has to use meter just to get some proper midscreen damage. Mindless block infinites just never seems to be the proper consequence in my opinion

 

[hayatei]

Say you're character X, you have 1 bar, you use it to get damage off of a hit confirm. You guess wrong on an opponents wakeup, and now you're block infinited to death. Fair?

exactly, this is heavily skewed in Takeda's favor and the b212+4 blade drop metagame, imo, should go back to what it was pre-patch

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

''Also if ronin Takeda outranged so many people then I might agree with you but this is ronin, not lasher or shirai ryu.''

Sir, you need to get the game on PC and have some games with Mr. Hayatei over here. I think you're giving arguments without having truly faced a good Ronin Takeda.

I would love to face him but I can't unfortunately, although I doubt my opinion would change

 

[Ares_Supreme]

I believe so, yes, you need to know what character you are dealing with. And change your strategies for how you use your meter. It is your job to make sure you always keep at least one bar in that match up, even if it means sacraficing damage.

Wow. Just wow. I guarantee you that this will be nerfed. Don't waste your time.

Also, your logic is so flawed. You basically are saying never break, and definitely never x-ray in this matchup. Lose all options except armoring through my block infinite.

I tried to give you the benefit of a doubt but come on man, this is just getting out of hand...

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

I see what you're getting at, but that would require that damage values should be increased for certain characters. Problem is that not all characters are insane at building meter, and at the same time these characters require a lot of meter in order to get damage that are on par with other characters' damage. I don't expect a guy like Jason to just have a ton of meter, whereas the kitana player can easily build meter from a distance. It would be alright if Takeda himself had to use meter at certain points in order to continue the loop.

I agree that careless meter management should have its consequences, but I still feel bad for some characters who has to use meter just to get some proper midscreen damage. Mindless block infinites just never seems to be the proper consequence in my opinion

Yeah Jason seems a bit screwed in this situation. My argument is meter management doesn't apply to him since he has no real way to build meter. He is a meter management character but against ronin he has no real way of building it, he just gets kind of butt fucked

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Wow. Just wow. I guarantee you that this will be nerfed. Don't waste your time.

Also, your logic is so flawed. You basically are saying never break, and definitely never x-ray in this matchup. Lose all options except armoring through my block infinite.

I tried to give you the benefit of a doubt but come on man, this is just getting out of hand...

Why would you use X-ray? How many characters have an actually useful X-ray? And yeah breaking in this match up isn't an option, you use meter for different things for different match ups. I don't see what is so flawed about that. But yes that is exactly what I'm saying. This is a match up where you save the meter for armoring out. Other characters like predator or quan chi. Not Takeda. As I said you use meter differently depending on the match up.

 

[Ares_Supreme]

Why would you use X-ray? How many characters have an actually useful X-ray? And yeah breaking in this match up isn't an option, you use meter for different things for different match ups. I don't see what is so flawed about that. But yes that is exactly what I'm saying. This is a match up where you save the meter for armoring out. Other characters like predator or quan chi. Not Takeda. As I said you use meter differently depending on the match up.

Why wouldn't you use an X-ray--especially as Kitana? That is so ridiculous.

Regardless. You know that it will be nerfed. We all know that it will be nerfed. So right now this is just arguing for the hell of it.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Ronin struggles to break 30 with a bar, you shouldnt be breaking against him anyway.

He can actually punish very easily for 40% one bar, 50% for two.

In the corner his guaranteed combos lead into 21 blade drop restand into a full rep of his +10 loop. Ronin does more damage in terms of punishing than people give him credit for post patch.

I don't think this ludicrous infinite stuff would be hard to patch, they have to be careful as to make his pressure pretty lacking again though. At the very least when takeda hit confirmes people trying to jump out of the infinite, he can't get THAT much damage off it, but he'll end the string in bf2 which is obviously a hard knockdown into the same pressure again.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Why wouldn't you use an X-ray--especially as Kitana? That is so ridiculous.

Regardless. You know that it will be nerfed. We all know that it will be nerfed. So right now this is just arguing for the hell of it.

That isn't her only option you know. And that would be a waste of meter against this character. As I said you use meter differently depending on the match up, what works on some characters doesn't work on others. Hell she gets off better than most in this match up due to her ability to gain meter so easily. And I'm not arguing to argue. I'm just stating why I think it is okay, people are responding to me so I am replying. X-ray should not be your only answer and only way to spend meter as I said many times before, match up dependant. Why should one strategy work against everyone? Why should you treat how you spend your meter the same against every single character?

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

Personally, I don't see too much wrong with it. Bad match ups exist in fighting games due to lack of options in characters, its how games evolve.

Blanka vs T hawk
Guile vs Bison

If it gets patched out, no hard feelings because I rarely ever go down this pressure route unless I want to bait armor.

I can understand why players of these characters would be upset tho, but it seems to be the weakness of these characters anyway. Slow pokes. I'm sure they struggle against any other pressure character (liu Kang, lao, Tanya, etc)

My proposition: sure take away some advantage, but enough to frame trap into another one of our pressure options.

 

[bdizzle2700]

Why would you use X-ray? How many characters have an actually useful X-ray? And yeah breaking in this match up isn't an option, you use meter for different things for different match ups. I don't see what is so flawed about that. But yes that is exactly what I'm saying. This is a match up where you save the meter for armoring out. Other characters like predator or quan chi. Not Takeda. As I said you use meter differently depending on the match up.

Dawg you kno i love you. Being a clan mate and all. But your def wrong here. With liu at least had to use stamina. Im pretty sure ronin doesnt. Even using your meter JUST to armor a infinite? Doesnt that just sound wrong? Unless you get hit your not really building meter. Blockin doesnt build you meter. So you prolly only get 2 bars the whole match unless you got first hit. Then you cant make one mistake otherwise its over? Like come on. Your characters get infinited. Thinki in a real match scenario. Your not the best player ever, so you make a mistake and its over. Do you just say fuck it and restart match and hope this time you dont get hit? This isnt mvc3.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Dawg you kno i love you. Being a clan mate and all. But your def wrong here. With liu at least had to use stamina. Im pretty sure ronin doesnt. Even using your meter JUST to armor a infinite? Doesnt that just sound wrong? Unless you get hit your not really building meter. Blockin doesnt build you meter. So you prolly only get 2 bars the whole match unless you got first hit. Then you cant make one mistake otherwise its over? Like come on. Your characters get infinited. Thinki in a real match scenario. Your not the best player ever, so you make a mistake and its over. Do you just say fuck it and restart match and hope this time you dont get hit? This isnt mvc3.

sorry dude i am standing by this, if i fuck up i fuck up, i didnt build my meter properly and my armor is there for exactly this kind of situation. in this case since you can armor out i would consider getting hit an option since you build meter when getting hit.

 

[hayatei]

He can actually punish very easily for 40% one bar, 50% for two.

In the corner his guaranteed combos lead into 21 blade drop restand into a full rep of his +10 loop. Ronin does more damage in terms of punishing than people give him credit for post patch.

I don't think this ludicrous infinite stuff would be hard to patch, they have to be careful as to make his pressure pretty lacking again though. At the very least when takeda hit confirmes people trying to jump out of the infinite, he can't get THAT much damage off it, but he'll end the string in bf2 which is obviously a hard knockdown into the same pressure again.

B212+4 blade drop being back to +2 or even maybe reduced to +3 would make his pressure almost the exact same as right now, but address all of the block infinites. Just needs a very little change

The better recovery on blade drop is a good thing for the character, it gives him more options for gimmicky blade drops, new combos and better zoning so I think only the cancel advantage of b212+4 should be slightly tweaked

 

[PND_Ketchup]

B212+4 blade drop being back to +2 or even maybe reduced to +3 would make his pressure almost the exact same as right now, but address all of the block infinites. Just needs a very little change

The better recovery on blade drop is a good thing for the character, it gives him more options for gimmicky blade drops, new combos and better zoning so I think only the cancel advantage of b212+4 should be slightly tweaked

I've not even had the chance to experiment with the blockstring online. Everyone just gets hit by the b2,1,24

 

[The Celebrity]

I've not even had the chance to experiment with the blockstring online. Everyone just gets hit by the b2,1,24

Haha this exactly. If someone manages to block the full string, it doesn't really matter what the cancel frames are on B12(2+4) because they also have to respect the meter burn blade call that will armor break and lead into full combo restand and pressure loop. Remove the infinite because people seem to always be scared the moment that word is mentioned, and lets move on

I have been enjoying and agree with @MrProfDrPepper 's debate though, I think if some characters have a bad matchup in the game, and their only option is to armor out of it or take a hit, thats fine imo. Kenshi will dent you hard in any variation if Takeda is spamming the attempted block infinite, and he'll push you full screen for the cost of 1 bar. Takeda has no armor breaking strings besides MAYBE a well-timed F3, so honestly I think Kenshi (and other characters) players would be more than happy if they can expect a Takeda to run flowchart on them.

I'd love to bring up the Flame Fist Liu Kang vs Ronin matchup just to demonstrate how terrible some matchups can be. And I don't think anything there should be changed, I'll just play a character that can handle him better instead. I understand character specialists/loyalists, and I respect them, but at a certain point you need to realize that you might need something else to beat someone, even if its not your main. SonicFox learned Kitana for the Kung Lao matchup, Honeybee now has a pocket reptile for bad matchups, Reo is learning Hunter Predator iirc, its not the end of the world when your character has trouble against someone.