General/Other - Ronin Ronin block infinite "analysis"

[hayatei]

Like most of you know, Ronin got a lot of changes that made him much stronger. Some of those changes affected his blade drop pressure significantly and enabled him to have corner "pseudo block infinites" against certain characters.

List of characters he can pseudo block infinite:

Jason
Kenshi
Kitana
Takeda
Erron Black

These are all the characters who can't get out of the b212+4 blade drop f122+4 quick call loop by using a normal special reversal or normals (poke, jab etc) now that you need atleast a 7 frame normal or an 8/9 frame reversal. Mid screen some of them can backdash after blocking f122+4 quick call, which makes b212+4 whiff. Takeda can easily make a read to beat this with b3 or just running a bit and doing b212+4 (there's practically no downside to these options and it is very much in Takeda's favor)

There seems to be some stealth changes to blade drop recovery, as proof of this you can now combo f12+4 first hit blade drop into f1, which I believe wasn't possible before the patch. This caused b212+4 blade drop to go from +2 to +4, which makes Ronin pressure overwhelming for the majority of the cast and enabled him to have the corner pseudo block infinites against those 5 characters.

Pre-patch, when b212+4 blade drop was +2, every characters in the game could interrupt the F1 follow-up without having to use meter. While this is currently still the case for the rest of the cast other than the 5 listed, the frame gap to do it went from 10 to 8, which once again makes the pressure from that string a bit too overwhelming.

My proposed change to fix the block infinites would be to simply reduce b212+4 cancel advantage, making b212+4 blade drop back to +2 and keeping the decreased recovery on blade drop.

Another possible change would be reducing the cancel adv on f12+4/f122+4 slightly so that kunai still jails but makes f122+4 blade drop a little bit less advantageous on block. It seems to be around +3 with the spacing from the pushback of the first hit of 2+4, a bit too close to being a pseudo block infinite and makes some of ronin's other option redundant in my opinion

What do you guys think should happen?

For people who do not know what the block infinite is: http://testyourmight.com/threads/new-block-infinite-in-mkx.55915/

@RedRaptor10
@YOMI Zyphox
@aieches
@HomeLee1121
@EMPEROR PRYCE
@Kinetic Balding1
@PND_Ketchup
@gross
@Jer
@zaf
@Ecodus


EDIT: Since the latest patch, b212+4 cancel adv has been reduced by 3 and f122+4 cancel adv has been reduced by 1. This removed the pseudo block infinites while keeping Ronin pressure almost the same. Exactly what I was asking for!

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

I never really thought it was a true block infinite considering how you can armor out of it (unless of course I am wrong about not being able to armor out of it in which case I will completely withdraw everything I said and will say and hold that L) since you can armor out of it I think it is fine, there is a way to get out of it. Sure you have to spend a bar to get breathing room but you know what? That is what the meter is there for among other things. I personally think ronin is fine. But that is just my 2 cents

 

[hayatei]

I never really thought it was a true block infinite considering how you can armor out of it (unless of course I am wrong about not being able to armor out of it in which case I will completely withdraw everything I said and will say and hold that L) since you can armor out of it I think it is fine, there is a way to get out of it. Sure you have to spend a bar to get breathing room but you know what? That is what the meter is there for among other things. I personally think ronin is fine. But that is just my 2 cents

You can armor through

but do you think it's fine for someone to lose a round/game because they ran out of meter and then blocked b212+4?

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

You can armor through

but do you think it's fine for someone to lose a round/game because they ran out of meter and then blocked b212+4?

Yes I do think that is fine, they managed their meter poorly so they should get punished for it. I've always seen nrs games of games that are heavily dependent on meter management. I think it is crucial to know when and where to use your meter.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Yes I do think that is fine, they managed their meter poorly so they should get punished for it. I've always seen nrs games of games that are heavily dependent on meter management. I think it is crucial to know when and where to use your meter.

That doesn't sound realistic though. You get hit by a combo and you break. Then you can't even block anymore?

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

That doesn't sound realistic though. You get hit by a combo and you break. Then you can't even block anymore?

Then you rethink your strategies and reconsider weather or not you should break. You have to adapt to how you use your meter per Match up. Bedsides for massively meter dependent characters breaking isn't a very good option most the time anyways. As well as knowing how to fight match ups I believe knowing how to spend your meter for each match up is just as important as how you attack offensively or keep them out. Part of where the mind games and complexity of meter management and Mkx in general. As I said before though this is just how I see the game. Meter management and dependency has always been very very important to me.

 

[The Celebrity]

You can armor through

but do you think it's fine for someone to lose a round/game because they ran out of meter and then blocked b212+4?

Do you think its fine for someone to lose a round/game because you got hit once by Cyrax in MK9?

I'm going to be honest, I don't think this game should have any block infinites or resets, but in this specific occasion, if they overnerf the cancel advantage or pressure, this character drops right back down to the bottom. Taking a single hit or using 1 meter will get a character (and there's only 5 it happens to) out of this. I think if someone finds themselves without any meter getting hit by this, maybe they should take a hit, even if that sounds dumb. Liu Kang's block infinite put him over the top, I believe it deserved to be nerfed (still I think they overdid that one). Takeda has slow enough startups (unlike liu kang) and this is spacing dependent that I don't think it would be that bad to leave in, there's things before this that should be addressed imo.

 

[buyacushun]

Nice write up. Personally I prefer heavy blockstrings to come with a mind game. Make it to were the opponent can easily escape but if he wants a better result besides getting away (say damaging the attacker), then they will have to make a read and so would the person inflicting the blockstun. At least with the run cancels they'd have to stop at some time. (Barring any of the ways people found out to be plus and just build back the stamina meter.)

Maybe make a situation where after the backdash if Takeda just runs in he might get poked. I say that because it seems like Takeda can just run a bit or do a different follow up that doesn't ruin anything.

Also, meter would be very skewed if Takeda can constantly get his opponent to spend a bar just because they blocked something. I'm sure Takeda could make an armor read and punish whatever reversal someone was using too. There's a lot of benefit going Takeda's way without much of risk/nor cost.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Then you rethink your strategies and reconsider weather or not you should break. You have to adapt to how you use your meter per Match up. Bedsides for massively meter dependent characters breaking isn't a very good option most the time anyways. As well as knowing how to fight match ups I believe knowing how to spend your meter for each match up is just as important as how you attack offensively or keep them out. Part of where the mind games and complexity of meter management and Mkx in general. As I said before though this is just how I see the game. Meter management and dependency has always been very very important to me.

Yeah, I get all that, but I'm just saying in a real match against good players you will get hit. Regardless of matchup and management. There will be times where you have to break to stay in a match. And the difference here is Takeda isn't spending bar himself to use this sequence, and the characters listed are forced to.

I like @hayatei 's suggestion, as it seems the best way to not overnerf Takeda while still giving players as many options as possible to defend against it.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Yeah, I get all that, but I'm just saying in a real match against good players you will get hit. Regardless of matchup and management. There will be times where you have to break to stay in a match. And the difference here is Takeda isn't spending bar himself to use this sequence, and the characters listed are forced to.

I like @hayatei 's suggestion, as it seems the best way to not overnerf Takeda while still giving players as many options as possible to defend against it.

That is true, hence the being careful. Hell sometimes you need to bite the bullet and lose a round. It is part of the game, and as for the match part break. But you must be careful afterwords. Part of the match up exp. I understand where you are coming from but I respectfully disagree. I believe that ronins pseudo block infinite is completely fair.

 

[Enexemander]

That is true, hence the being careful. Hell sometimes you need to bite the bullet and lose a round. It is part of the game, and as for the match part break. But you must be careful afterwords. Part of the match up exp. I understand where you are coming from but I respectfully disagree. I believe that ronins pseudo block infinite is completely fair.

Wow. It would have been nice to see this attitude before they took the sledgehammer to Liu Kang.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Wow. It would have been nice to see this attitude before they took the sledgehammer to Liu Kang.

I think that liu kang is a slightly different story, since you couldn't armor out of his, I believe he needed a slight nerf but nothing as massive as he got, if they toned it down just a little but so that you could armor out of it I think it would have been good, but I think it was a bit too powerful. As long as there is an option to get out, I think it is fair, unless you could armor out of liu kangs in which I will take back what I said and say that they was fair as well, or if you could block breaker it then I also believe it would be fair

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Oh look, more people saying block infinites are cool.

I mean, who's bad enough to get hit by this anyway?
Shouldn't you be playing to a perfect fucking tee?

 

[Swordzman321]

infinities aren't fine, needs to be removed vs these 5 characters.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

infinities aren't fine, needs to be removed vs these 5 characters.

But they aren't infinites. They can be armored out of.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Well maybe they could just give EVERYONE a 6f D1 and a 7f D3. Seems like every one of these pseudo infinites can be beat by moves faster than 8 frames. And it would also create concrete decision making when you're at disadvantage

 

[Swordzman321]

But they aren't infinites. They can be armored out of.

pseudo-infinites then, getting touched and dying because no more meter, not cool. I have no real interest in debating this with you, i'm already aware of your opinion on the matter. Although i pray you are in the minority and this bug is fixed. This is a bug, or it would work on the entire cast. This of course is not the most prevalent issue needing attention, But it needs to be fixed all the same.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

pseudo-infinites then, getting touched and dying because no more meter, not cool. I have no real interest in debating this with you, i'm already aware of your opinion on the matter. Although i pray you are in the minority and this bug is fixed. This is a bug, or it would work on the entire cast. This of course is not the most prevalent issue needing attention, But it needs to be fixed all the same.

Oookay. I guess since you shit on my opinion I will shit on yours considering how you are too lazy to find a way around something. Bye. That was my one potshot. I don't want to get into an argument either but you shat on my opinion so I will shit on yours, an eye for an eye as they say.

 

[bdizzle2700]

But they aren't infinites. They can be armored out of.

Dont be silly haha. As a kenshi player you should say no. You armour alot as it. One bad armour read and now your in an infinite. Finally get a bar for the 2nd round and make another bad read. Are you really gunna be like dang. I lost cause of reads. But after that you already lost cause you couldn't get out

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Dont be silly haha. As a kenshi player you should say no. You armour alot as it. One bad armour read and now your in an infinite. Finally get a bar for the 2nd round and make another bad read. Are you really gunna be like dang. I lost cause of reads. But after that you already lost cause you couldn't get out

I have a lot to complain about as a kenshi player, but I think this psuedo block infinite is completely fair, if I manage my meter poorly, then I deserve to get put in that situation

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Or maybe give those 5 characters a new defensive tool? At least Jason. He definitely needs one

 

[Jer]

Anyone that thinks this shouldn't be removed need to actually play a Ronin Takeda player. Ronin was extremely good pre-patch, and this patch made him ridiculous (I train regularly with @hayatei). Playing a good character such as Cassie or Predator, it's still extremely annoying

 

[xInfra Deadx]

But they aren't infinites. They can be armored out of.

Armor is not a be all, end all solution. Once ran out for said characters, they are done.

Poor Kenshi on the other hand...there's another nail in the coffin for this character...

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Armor is not a be all, end all solution. Once ran out for said characters, they are done.

Poor Kenshi on the other hand...there's another nail in the coffin for this character...

Hence why you need to manage your meter carefully. I know this is a death wish for my main character but I think this is fine and should stay. Refer to my other posts as to why I think it is fine.

 

[Zoidberg747]

That doesn't sound realistic though. You get hit by a combo and you break. Then you can't even block anymore?

Ronin struggles to break 30 with a bar, you shouldnt be breaking against him anyway.