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Match-up Discussion Raven Matchup Discussion

S

Sami

Noob
I've given up trying to understand page 28.

B23 is supposed to be input just as he's about to go past the point of being able to WCC. B2 should be hitting just as WWC becomes impossible, meaning Grundy is forced to grab. It wiffs because of 3, and 3 should hit AFTER the armour has ended which will punt him full screen. Any other time and you're just asking to get blown up.

Time to start petition to remove WCC! ;)
 
Jackal904

Jackal904

Noob
Sami said:
I've given up trying to understand page 28.

B23 is supposed to be input just as he's about to go past the point of being able to WCC. B2 should be hitting just as WWC becomes impossible, meaning Grundy is forced to grab. It wiffs because of 3, and 3 should hit AFTER the armour has ended which will punt him full screen. Any other time and you're just asking to get blown up.

Time to start petition to remove WCC! ;)
Click to expand...

Correct, mostly, I think haha. In order for b23 to work for both WCC~d2 and regular WC you need to hit him with b2 just after the WCC so that if he does d2 he will be hit by the b2, if Grundy instead does regular WC then he will whiff because b2 has some ungrabbable frames. But you could also do the b23 on a read and if you do it correctly then after the cancel he is forced to block the 3 (or get hit) and if he does regular WC then it'll whiff. So basically there are times where both a b23 on a read and on reaction will work.

TL;DR - Just do mb b3.
 
S

Sami

Noob
Jackal904 said:
Correct, mostly, I think haha. In order for b23 to work for both WCC~d2 and regular WC you need to hit him with b2 just after the WCC so that if he does d2 he will be hit by the b2, if Grundy instead does regular WC then he will whiff because b2 has some ungrabbable frames. But you could also do the b23 on a read and if you do it right then after the cancel he is forced to block the 3 (or get hit) and if he does regular WC then it'll whiff. So basically there are times where both a b23 on a read and on reaction will work.

TL;DR - Just do mb b3.
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Yep timing it so WCC into D2 gets stuffed by b2 is the most important part. You're basically baiting Grundy into thinking WC will actually grab - if he goes for it you put him full screen, and if he doesn't and WCC you either end up -1 on block (but most importantly, not on the floor) or he goes for D2 and gets stuffed which also puts him fullscreen.

If you're not trying to bait a full WC or D2 then just back the fuck up as fast as possible, unless you're in a corner as by that point you've probably lost anyway. Just close your eyes and dream of being able to teleport to the other side of the screen.
 
Blind_Ducky

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
So here are all of grundy's tick throws and how to escape them:

Grundy Tick throws:
1: b3, jump
112: b3, jump
D2 : mb b3, d1, jump, b3
1 b2: b3
F1 2: b3, jump
F1 3: b3, mb b3, jump, d1
B2 3: d1(trades), b3, jump
F2 2: b3, d1, jump
3 2: b3
D1: b3, d1, jump

Regular b3 & f3 will always beat out tick throws. They have throw immunity I guess or something whatever. I'm going to go test b3 and other escapes vs other fuck throws. Mb b3 is basically useless since it's not necessary but I didn't realize that till after I wrote it down and I didn't feel like removing them from the list cuz in lazy. So yeah when you grundys Gona tick throw then b3 and mb it eliminates all of his cancellable options:)
 
Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
A question: None of those strings jail? What I mean is...whenever Gruny does one of his strings into trait(I'm guessing that are his "tick" throws), I feel like I'm supposed to standblock the whole thing, which grants free grab. Are you saying that you can MB F3/B3 before the throw or jump out?

Just curious.
 
xInfra Deadx

xInfra Deadx

Gimmick stolen by Jordan Peele
Rude said:
A question: None of those strings jail? What I mean is...whenever Gruny does one of his strings into trait(I'm guessing that are his "tick" throws), I feel like I'm supposed to standblock the whole thing, which grants free grab. Are you saying that you can MB F3/B3 before the throw or jump out?

Just curious.
Click to expand...
Jump out or backdash...Dead Air beats jumping back.
 
Jackal904

Jackal904

Noob
Rude said:
A question: None of those strings jail? What I mean is...whenever Gruny does one of his strings into trait(I'm guessing that are his "tick" throws), I feel like I'm supposed to standblock the whole thing, which grants free grab. Are you saying that you can MB F3/B3 before the throw or jump out?

Just curious.
Click to expand...
You can get out a b3/f3 after blocking Grundy's d2 if you hold b/f and mash 3. It's pretty easy that way.
 
Blind_Ducky

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Mb b3 isn't required to avoid the throw, just b3 but if he cancels into anything else then you're getting hit so basically mb b3 fucks his options.
 
Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Blind_Man said:
Mb b3 isn't required to avoid the throw, just b3 but if he cancels into anything else then you're getting hit so basically mb b3 fucks his options.
Click to expand...
Although if he does a WCC instead of a chain grab, the WCC beats the MB B3, right? I suppose that's the read/meta of the situation.
 
Blind_Ducky

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Rude said:
Although if he does a WCC instead of a chain grab, the WCC beats the MB B3, right? I suppose that's the read/meta of the situation.
Click to expand...
It doesn't necessarily beat the b3 but that's his only way of not getting comboed unless he doesn't cancel the normal or string into a special. Also in this particular mu, Ravens b3 is +11 and he will be crouch blocking the b3 if he does wcc so I believe that grants a free throw so he still pretty much loses.
 
Scoot Magee

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
I played glass swords raven last night and did pretty terrible. It's the first time I've had a pretty long set with a good raven.

Anyway as an arrow player I felt my goal was to just patiently try to get in and do as much damage as possible before getting pushed out again. I had a lot of trouble using any of the tricks I normally use to open characters up from mid screen because I had to respect her force grab move so much. The real trouble came with her trait though. I would just eat a ton of chip because I was respecting the force grab so much.

I'm going to try some stuff in training today after work. I think I have an idea of what I can do. Anyone have any helpful info in this match up?
 
S

Sami

Noob
Personally, no. Unless you find some new stuff (good luck!) the Raven-GA match is very much in her favour. She usually comes off best with trades (either pillars or grabs) against the various arrows due to preventing a GA follow-up by knocking him down or leaving him hanging in the air.

Keeping her out of demon stance (easier said than done) is a must. When she's in normal stance she needs to rely on her high projectile and soul crush. Low arrow should crouch you under the projectile and a blocked Soul Crush gives you a safe dash, draw or reload.
 
Blind_Ducky

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Sami said:
Personally, no. Unless you find some new stuff (good luck!) the Raven-GA match is very much in her favour. She usually comes off best with trades (either pillars or grabs) against the various arrows due to preventing a GA follow-up by knocking him down or leaving him hanging in the air.

Keeping her out of demon stance (easier said than done) is a must. When she's in normal stance she needs to rely on her high projectile and soul crush. Low arrow should crouch you under the projectile and a blocked Soul Crush gives you a safe dash, draw or reload.
Click to expand...

Doesn't give a safe reload
 
VGMtheVagabond

VGMtheVagabond

Salt Mine CEO
After playing at a tourney today, I have one question:

WHAT DO I DO AGAINST MARTIAN MANHUNTER AND SHAZAM?!?

Came in 5th btw.
 
S

Sami

Noob
Omg that match was so free. GL sitting on a mostly full meter for his second life bar in game 2 desperate to provoke a clash :)
 
Blind_Ducky

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
So yeah. Grundy. I think trait is 99% useless in this mu. And we should like figure shit out against this guy cause this mu is worse than I thought it was.
 
Red Reaper

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
Blind_Man said:
So yeah. Grundy. I think trait is 99% useless in this mu. And we should like figure shit out against this guy cause this mu is worse than I thought it was.
Click to expand...
Definitely use your ungrabbable frames. Check out my thread on the Grundy forum. (It's stickied.) I hated that character the most by the time the game first kame out.

Ungrabbable frames are your friend in the match up. With most characters you have to hold your ground against him since you do not want to be put into the korner. (Raven has that teleport so that helps). MB B3 is not the answer since he has that BS Walking Corpse kancel into Walking Corpse to blow that shit up. Some ungrabbable moves stop him from being able to input the second Walking Corpse so he's forced to block. It requires timing so you have to be prepared but start shutting him down and he'll have to approach you in different ways.

I'm one of the only people that uses this. Haven't ever seen anyone else do it but it's good.

PS: Before the game kame out my two characters were the "Strong" Characters: Harley and Raven. Tyrant, Chef, and I played this match up and it felt like kompletely BS. That's why by the time the game kame out I hated that character.
 
S

Sami

Noob
Blind_Man said:
So yeah. Grundy. I think trait is 99% useless in this mu. And we should like figure shit out against this guy cause this mu is worse than I thought it was.
Click to expand...
I don't want to say "I told you so" as I really REALLY hoped that I was wrong. WC/WCC gets through all of Raven's zoning. On a read or reaction Grundy gets the block and frame advantage. If he fails to react then he eats the damage (8% max, most moves less). If he's close enough he gets the grab. And then there's MB Swamp Hands because the one thing lacking in Grundy's toolkit was MORE ARMOUR. And if he gets the anti-chip trait up then IMO Raven loses the match automatically. No tools to open him up, no 2% chip spam, nothing.

Granted, there's only one Tyrant. But one is enough.
 
Jackal904

Jackal904

Noob
Blind_Man said:
So yeah. Grundy. I think trait is 99% useless in this mu. And we should like figure shit out against this guy cause this mu is worse than I thought it was.
Click to expand...
What about instant air teleport on a swamp hands read/reaction? Not sure if he recovers fast enough to block/AA it. Other than that, pillars seem too risky because of MB swamp hands, same with event horizon. Shadow Raven spam might be your best bet at a distance because (depending on distance) if he gets hit by the shadow raven after MB swamp hands then the hit stun will provide enough time for you to escape him dashing in and doing a combo. If he goes crazy with WCC trying to get in you could try and catch him with Soul Crush in between WCCs because I saw some people something similar to Tyrant. I think you know MB b3 is your best friend on reaction to WC.

But again with teleport, you could (maybe, this is just theoretical) use it to punish swamp hands and make him respect that so he won't toss them out as much. And when he does respect it you can do more of Raven's usual zoning game. Also, you could keep dodging MB swamp hands until he's out of meter so that you don't have to worry about them. Yeah he can WCC through shit but at least he takes damage and you still might be able to hit him between WCCs like I said earlier.

Disclaimer: This is mostly theory crafting.
 
Blind_Ducky

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Ravens best string with throw immunity is b23 and I think I needed to use it more when I fought tyrant. I tried to fall back to zoning way to much and that wasn't good. Also air teleport to whiff punish swamp hands probably won't work because it has a bit of an air hitbox so it'll grab me out of the air.
 
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