Match-up Discussion Raven Matchup Discussion

[zaf]

B23 even on WCC is great because its still safe. That and you have them risking a lift. B23 is super powered in that matchup bevsuse not only is it ungrabble by wc but its also an amazing mixup/eben better whiff punish tool.

Even with that its in Grundy's favor barely only because he has more tools and damage in that fight because raven has to take risks to zone for the most part. Huge risks.

Still very winnable.

Grundy WCC whiffing on b23 doesn't matter, that is not why grundy uses it. He uses it to just get in with armor. So if it whiffs who cares.
The point of grundy doing wcc and taking the hit, is to cancel and touch you.

 

[zaf]

Lol I just tested it and yup this is super possible. Haha ok well time to pull an Zoidberg747

So wait, you tested this and I was right? He can cancel WCC on your b23 and d2 you?????

 

[Blind_Ducky]

So wait, you tested this and I was right? He can cancel WCC on your b23 and d2 you?????

Yes he takes the hit on the 3 while armored then Raven is recovering and getting d2d. It was pretty easy lol

 

[zaf]

Yes he takes the hit on the 3 while armored then Raven is recovering and getting d2d. It was pretty easy lol

FUCK that sucks. I secretly was hoping that I was imaging this.... But i swear i remember this....

At least you know about this now Ducky, and can adapt to this and change up how you play the match up!

Does this make the match up worse?

 

[Zoidberg747]

Lol I just tested it and yup this is super possible. Haha ok well time to pull an Zoidberg747

Is this another MB B3 reference?

Also you can just do the b2 and then block, he can't do anything quick enough iirc.

FUCK that sucks. I secretly was hoping that I was imaging this.... But i swear i remember this....

At least you know about this now Ducky, and can adapt to this and change up how you play the match up!

Does this make the match up worse?

I don't think so. Like I said above you can just do the b2 without the 3 he cant punish it. You can also cancel into lift if he tries to cancel it to often.

 

[Circus]

How's he risking getting lifted?

He Wcc in so you:

B23- grab.
B23 - mb f3
B23 jump

Either way its a read afterward for both sides. Lift is just one option after he blocks b23 with the wcc

 

[Blind_Ducky]

FUCK that sucks. I secretly was hoping that I was imaging this.... But i swear i remember this....

At least you know about this now Ducky, and can adapt to this and change up how you play the match up!

Does this make the match up worse?

Well I don't know yet. It depends on when he cancels walking corpse and when we do b23 so the best thing for us to do is time our b23 so this hopefully won't happen. If that makes sense.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Is this another MB B3 reference?

Also you can just do the b2 and then block, he can't do anything quick enough iirc.

Yes lol. But what if he doesn't cancel? Then mb wc and shitty set up for us.

 

[Circus]

Lol I just tested it and yup this is super possible. Haha ok well time to pull an Zoidberg747

Oh fuck me lol. Damn

 

[zaf]

Is this another MB B3 reference?

Also you can just do the b2 and then block, he can't do anything quick enough iirc.

B2 block, then sit there and eat a trait grab? No thanks!

Well I don't know yet. It depends on when he cancels walking corpse and when we do b23 so the best thing for us to do is time our b23 so this hopefully won't happen. If that makes sense.

yea makes sense, you need to play a grundy now... and feel out the MU.
Yea it also does make sense about what you are saying. I get it

off topic......
I love me some mb zoidberg.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

B2 block, then sit there and eat a trait grab? No thanks!



yea makes sense, you need to play a grundy now... and feel out the MU.
Yea it also does make sense about what you are saying. I get it

off topic......
I love me some mb zoidberg.

Yeah the best Grundy over here is dab but he's been busy so hopefully I'll get to practice with him soon.

Mb zoidbergs all day bro.

 

[Zoidberg747]

B2 block, then sit there and eat a trait grab? No thanks!



yea makes sense, you need to play a grundy now... and feel out the MU.
Yea it also does make sense about what you are saying. I get it

off topic......
I love me some mb zoidberg.

This is just me spitballing, but if he cancels it often then you can cancel the b2 into lift.

Like Blind_man said though, he could not cancel the WCC and you get screwed.

You could also just MB Zoidberg

 

[zaf]

This is just me spitballing, but if he cancels it often then you can cancel the b2 into lift.

Like Blind_man said though, he could not cancel the WCC and you get screwed.

You could also just MB Zoidberg

Yea ill just stick to mb zoidbergs

 

[Blind_Ducky]

So yeah I think this mu is going to need to be explored a lot more.

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

Yes he takes the hit on the 3 while armored then Raven is recovering and getting d2d. It was pretty easy lol

Told you bro >.>

This MU becomes an omega pain as Raven doesnt have any moves with enough hits or damage on the initial hits to discourage WCC, she also doesnt have an option to fuck up his inputs so the cancel doesnt happen aside from teleport behind him if you have trait up which we dont have constant access to and even when we do Grundy shouldnt be that close when you're activating trait..

The worst part is that his oki is much more scary on Raven compared to pretty much everyone lese coz he can just delay his shit a bit and it flat out stuffs wake up lift and b13 (?) catches backdashes.

 

[Qwark28]

Qwark, weren't you doing this to me when i used b23?
Very possible to beat out ravens b23 I believe.
If I am wrong qwark, then everyone else ignore this.
but there is no way I was using any other normals against WCC considering I know what the consequences are.
I thought b23 was the go to option for WCC. But he would cancel it and hit me =[

WCC basically takes no block or hitstun and just shoves a d2 up ravens ass.

the whole point of ungrabable frames was to avoid people being hit by WC while the real threat is the huge "whiffed" string youre throwing out to avoid a 18% grab which opens you up to D2 11 swamp hands which is trait + 50% damage

this was being done to me offline months ago which is why i was wondering why people didnt regard grundy as a bad matchup

 

[kabelfritz]

Yes he takes the hit on the 3 while armored then Raven is recovering and getting d2d. It was pretty easy lol

that is why you delay the b23, you only do it on reaction not on read.

 

[kabelfritz]

Jackal904, someone told me if supes jumps straight up and d3 it doesnt cross an if he jfd3 it does or sth, i dont really remember. still my question is, does it Need a certain knockdown to be able to cross or can it no matter what?

 

[Jackal904]

Jackal904, someone told me if supes jumps straight up and d3 it doesnt cross an if he jfd3 it does or sth, i dont really remember. still my question is, does it Need a certain knockdown to be able to cross or can it no matter what?

Any hard knockdown works I believe. And I don't think it matters so much on if Superman does a neutral jump or a jump-in, the positioning when he does the dive punch is what matters more. If the superman player doesn't do it very well (not very ambiguous) then you can tell where it's guna hit, but it can be made so ambiguous that it is completely random.

that is why you delay the b23, you only do it on reaction not on read.

^ This. If you're 3 in b23 is getting absorbed by the armor in WCC then you are doing it too early. I just did some testing (might mess with it more later just to make sure) but with good enough reactions (and at the right time) you can do a b23 on reaction to a WC (or WCC) and you'll either avoid the WC grab or hit him if he does a WCC into any (non-armored) move. If he does a WCC and blocks then he just eats a b23. This works because Raven's b2 has some ungrabbable frames (not as many as the 3 part) so you don't need to do an early b23 (or even b23, you can just use b2 with correct timing) to avoid a WC grab. The timing will take a bit of practice though, but it doesn't seem too bad.

Edit: Both WC and WCC also seem to get blown up by a well-timed lift. I haven't looked into it much, but I will after work.

 

[Qwark28]

pre emptive b23 is basically throwing out a random hugely punishable move on whiff, im sure theyre not doing that.

doing b23 on reaction to WC will get you blown up, thats the point

 

[Jackal904]

pre emptive b23 is basically throwing out a random hugely punishable move on whiff, im sure theyre not doing that.

wat...

I don't think I understand what you're saying. It won't whiff if you use it at the right range...

doing b23 on reaction to WC will get you blown up, thats the point

No it won't.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

that is why you delay the b23, you only do it on reaction not on read.

That's what I said. Please read all my posts.

 

[Qwark28]

wat...

I don't think I understand what you're saying. It won't whiff if you use it at the right range...




No it won't.

Im saying that you need to time it very early in order to actually be safe from WC/C. I would prefer to simply jump back instead of lose 50% life and let grundy trait up which means raven has to rush him down now

 

[Jackal904]

Im saying that you need to time it very early in order to actually be safe from WC/C. I would prefer to simply jump back instead of lose 50% life and let grundy trait up which means raven has to rush him down now

Yeah that's probably your best bet, or jumping over him because he still mgiht be able to d2 you off a WCC if you jump back. But you don't have to do b23 that early because like I said b2 has ungrabbable frames.

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah that's probably your best bet, or jumping over him because he still might be able to d2 you off a WCC if you jump back. But you don't have to do b23 that early because like I said b2 has ungrabbable frames.

One thing I like when playing Joker in this matchup is that unless my opp pre emptively does wcc swamp hands i can just jump back with j3 like a squirrel on crack