Raiden Match Footage

[ExpectFlames]

I don’t get how Raiden has bad buttons, he has great mids that are fast, cover good range and can be made completely safe in Raijin. He has in Raijin:

• B12: His 11f hit-confirmable string that goes into 30% on hit and DF2 on block, doing good chip and resetting neutral at a range where many advancing mids don’t hit you
• F3: His safe 11F advancing mid that functions as his main pressure tool, can be cancelled into DF2 for safety and spacing but has a flawless block gap or can be cancelled into F32 for +44 hit advantage and without flawless block gap. You cannot hit confirm it, but on hit you are +15 and you can jail into his 243 string and again go for fly on hit or DF2 on block. You also get a free strike/throw mix-up after F3 on hit. Since F3 is safe, you can threaten with flawless block reversals, making it an effective stagger normal as well, so you can go for throw.
• F11: A 16f high that doesn’t have a hurt box and reaches further than B1 and F3, it can be used to whiff punish other moves that you may not feel comfortable punishing with B12. You can hit confirm it, F11 itself is safe and can be safer with DF2. F11 is also excellent in punishing moves like D’vorah’s ovipositor normals due to the nature of the staff hitbox. It has obvious weaknesses since it is a high and the hitbox is inconsistent across the staff, not to mention the upwards angle of F1 makes it whiff on characters. However, this doesn’t take away from the fact that it does its job well.
• F4: A half-screen 19f mid that is only -3 on block and can be cancelled into DF2 for safety. It jails from Raiden’s D4 and starts off Raiden’s most damaging combos. F4~DF2 has no gap, and you can even stagger it when they expect the DF2 and go into throw or poke because F4 is only -3. Raiden can easily suffocate people in the corner by just staying at F4 range and doing F4~DF2 over and over again until the opponent inevitably makes a mistake and you get a full combo.

Because of these buttons Raiden can control the area from half screen or 3-4 character lengths away quite well, can unless the opponent can something to contest at that range (like SD Noob’s slide) then Raiden holds the advantage in neutral. They do a forward advancing string? -> doesn’t reach -> whiff punish; they sit and block? -> F4 into DF2 -> back to square one but they just lost chip; they jump? -> anti-air with DB2/trip guard into full combo. Of course they can bait the F4 and punish, but that means you just lost neutral and it’s nothing to do with the tools of the character.

Sure this character doesn’t have any autoshimmies, or a 9-mid string that is a 1-size-fits-all and has many mind games off of it, and Raijin in particular suffers from being zoned out because Raiden’s wave dash isn’t really very good. These make him a worse character when compared to the top tiers, but this doesn’t take away from the fact that he still has good tools to use.

I will say that yes, in a certain sense Raiden’s kit does contradict itself, especially in the beginning because in the pre-release build he was clearly meant to be a zone with a fast lightning strike that was much safer on block, but they changed it by nerfing his main zoning tool but his normals still had the bad frame data. Raijin after the patch was the band-aid for that and it has arguably done it’s job well by giving him a consistent way to gain safety, but that safety can still be effectively countered by reading correctly the FB gaps, or reading what the Raiden player will do after DF2 on block.

Okay I want to state for the record I never once asked for a list of buffs for raiden, I'll try to help you see from my position

B12- easily his best tool without question great for whiff punishing his bread and butter your right its 11 frames it should be 9 considering it's not staggerable would make it in line with EVERY other character in the game. With buff df2 loops are good only if your opponent isnt patient(more on this later)
F3- is good no argument.
F11- is without question the worst string in the entire game. You vastly understate just how ineffective it is. It doesn't ain't air and doesn't hit crouch blocking opponents. There is zero mix up here, buff df2 loops are it's only saving grace. for something with slow start up and being a high its offensive being told its decent.
F4~df2 loops- f4 is strong very strong with df2 being safe with push back should in theory mean your at raidens strongest position 3/4screen with the chance to use any of your strong individual tools. Not of those tools mean anything in a game where there Is full screen slid dash punch teleport johhnys low strings even kang's f4 can beat out raiden pressing buttons with a micro dash. This is the crux of my point raiden is a whiff punish monster, if this was a game based on footsies he would be top 5 he has ever tool. Im not saying hes the worst fighter ever designed I'm saying that in THIS game hes not better than any other character.
I keep repeating this over and over, he is viable sure he just demands more effort and caution with less bang for buck than everyone else and with that definition he is the worst in the game. Doesnt mean hes bad necessarily just not as good as everyone else.
Am I making any sense here?

 

[Marlow]

B12- easily his best tool without question great for whiff punishing his bread and butter your right its 11 frames it should be 9 considering it's not staggerable would make it in line with EVERY other character in the game

How many characters actually have 9 frame mids though? More to the point, how many non-rushdown characters have 9 frame mid combo starters? I think the speed of the mid is pretty comparable to the rest of the cast, to me the issue is that it's unsafe. Most characters have at least 1 safe cancellable mid string. I'd be happy if they just changed B12 to -6.

Not of those tools mean anything in a game where there Is full screen slide, dash punch, teleport, johhnys low strings, even kang's f4 can beat out raiden pressing buttons with a micro dash

Can't those things be baited and punished?

 

[UnshavenRaven]

Okay I want to state for the record I never once asked for a list of buffs for raiden, I'll try to help you see from my position

B12- easily his best tool without question great for whiff punishing his bread and butter your right its 11 frames it should be 9 considering it's not staggerable would make it in line with EVERY other character in the game. With buff df2 loops are good only if your opponent isnt patient(more on this later)
F3- is good no argument.
F11- is without question the worst string in the entire game. You vastly understate just how ineffective it is. It doesn't ain't air and doesn't hit crouch blocking opponents. There is zero mix up here, buff df2 loops are it's only saving grace. for something with slow start up and being a high its offensive being told its decent.
F4~df2 loops- f4 is strong very strong with df2 being safe with push back should in theory mean your at raidens strongest position 3/4screen with the chance to use any of your strong individual tools. Not of those tools mean anything in a game where there Is full screen slid dash punch teleport johhnys low strings even kang's f4 can beat out raiden pressing buttons with a micro dash. This is the crux of my point raiden is a whiff punish monster, if this was a game based on footsies he would be top 5 he has ever tool. Im not saying hes the worst fighter ever designed I'm saying that in THIS game hes not better than any other character.
I keep repeating this over and over, he is viable sure he just demands more effort and caution with less bang for buck than everyone else and with that definition he is the worst in the game. Doesnt mean hes bad necessarily just not as good as everyone else.
Am I making any sense here?

To say F1, 1 is useless is not true. It has its place. I use F1, 1 in almost every match to mix things up at a distance. It absolutely does work as anti-air but you must gauge your distance. Don't use it up close for anti air (use standing 1, or DB2 for that). But at the outer mid range, if they jump, you can hit a quick F1, and follow up with DB2 amplified for some nice damage.

I also like to bait out the F1 at a distance, making it whiff on purpose on a ducking opponent, to make my opponent think he's safe walking into the midrange; the moment he walks forward and attacks, I just throw a full 1, 1, then a full combo punish.

Raiden is a solid character. He has strengths & weaknesses, like many other characters. He's not S-tier, but he's far from "the worst character in the game." Constructive feedback on a character is fine, but let's not forget the importance of taking time to sharpen skills, face top quality opponents, and gain as much experience/matchup knowledge as possible.

Even Truth & Light has some funky capabilities that I'm still curious to mess with.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

F1 is pretty much Raiden's "I think you're going to start walking" button.

 

[ExpectFlames]

How many characters actually have 9 frame mids though? More to the point, how many non-rushdown characters have 9 frame mid combo starters? I think the speed of the mid is pretty comparable to the rest of the cast, to me the issue is that it's unsafe. Most characters have at least 1 safe cancellable mid string. I'd be happy if they just changed B12 to -6.




Can't those things be baited and punished?

Characters that don't have 9frame mids have gotcha mechanics they just happen to better than raidens. And you can't stagger it that's a big deal.
Yes they can be baited... they are still neutral destructive.

 

[ExpectFlames]

To say F1, 1 is useless is not true. It has its place. I use F1, 1 in almost every match to mix things up at a distance. It absolutely does work as anti-air but you must gauge your distance. Don't use it up close for anti air (use standing 1, or DB2 for that). But at the outer mid range, if they jump, you can hit a quick F1, and follow up with DB2 amplified for some nice damage.

I also like to bait out the F1 at a distance, making it whiff on purpose on a ducking opponent, to make my opponent think he's safe walking into the midrange; the moment he walks forward and attacks, I just throw a full 1, 1, then a full combo punish.

Raiden is a solid character. He has strengths & weaknesses, like many other characters. He's not S-tier, but he's far from "the worst character in the game." Constructive feedback on a character is fine, but let's not forget the importance of taking time to sharpen skills, face top quality opponents, and gain as much experience/matchup knowledge as possible.

Even Truth & Light has some funky capabilities that I'm still curious to mess with.

With everything you just said tell me characters you think raiden is wholesale better than. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, because to have your point of view there has to be someone worse than him. ON THIS ROSTER I DON'T SEE IT.

 

[ExpectFlames]

F1 is pretty much Raiden's "I think you're going to start walking" button.

Even if you do start walking your opponent can micro past the 1 and poke, its not like you can stagger it leads to a super unsafe ender. There are a lot if bad strings in the game but I can't think of one worse.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Even if you do start walking your opponent can micro past the 1 and poke, its not like you can stagger it leads to a super unsafe ender. There are a lot if bad strings in the game but I can't think of one worse.

Nobody is going to do that.
I do agree that f112 serves no purpose at all, but if Raiden reads forward movement f1 will hit so long as their animation doesn't involve a brief dip in their shoulders.

 

[Marlow]

they are still neutral destructive.

What's neutral destructive about them?

 

[ExpectFlames]

What's neutral destructive about them?

You serious? You dont think this game has neutral breaking moves?

 

[Marlow]

You serious? You dont think this game has neutral breaking moves?

I just want to know how you define neutral breaking moves.

I think there are certainly moves like dive kicks, slides, teleports, or dash punches that can bypass some of the "normal" footsies of just walking or dashing in and out of range, but most of these are unsafe, can be heavily punished, or at the least cause a character to greatly give up their turn if blocked.

These moves allow some characters an easier time at setting the pace in a match depending on the matchup, but to me that's just part of the game, and something that can be game planned around or taken into account and adjusted to.

 

[Marlow]

I actually find 321 to be the most worthless string. I have no idea how to really use it.

 

[MKF30]

Some of his strings are slow af and kind of pointless imo but yeah lol I never see any Raiden's doing that string.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

Some of his strings are slow af and kind of pointless imo but yeah lol I never see any Raiden's doing that string.

I tend to use it to bait from time to time. I'll intentionally whiff the first hit (standing kick), then be at just enough distance for the 2nd hit to connect (lunges forward and covers good distance). I'll usually special cancel after the 2nd hit and will shoot out DB4 or will Superman cancel to make space.

And to "ExpectFlames": I don't consider Raiden better or worse in the general sense, just different. He beats certain matchups easier than others, but also suffers in certain matchups. For example, with my Raijin, I tend to beat Kung Lao and Liu Kang players easier than I do Kotal Khan and Shao Kahn players. I think generally speaking, the roster is pretty well balanced, (with the exception of maybe Geras and Sonya).

 

[Mandolore1123]

B12- easily his best tool without question great for whiff punishing his bread and butter your right its 11 frames it should be 9 considering it's not staggerable would make it in line with EVERY other character in the game. With buff df2 loops are good only if your opponent isnt patient(more on this later)

Only a select few characters in this game have 9f mids, arbitrary giving this to him just because you want to and not because he needs it doesn’t solve his problems at all. The problem with this string is that it is unsafe and the second hit is a high and it has bad whiff recovery making it susceptible to be punished by delayed wake-up. First problem is eliminated by Raijin, second problem should be solved by B14 in theory (punished ppl trying to duck the second hit after the first hit whiffs) but B14 sucks, third problem is solved by the player being smart and not using B12 to pressure on wake-up.

F11- is without question the worst string in the entire game. You vastly understate just how ineffective it is. It doesn't ain't air and doesn't hit crouch blocking opponents. There is zero mix up here, buff df2 loops are it's only saving grace. for something with slow start up and being a high its offensive being told its decent.

Worst string in the game? 321 would like a word with you. You’re right that it doesn’t anti-air well and it doesn’t hit crouching opponents. You’re also right that there’s zero mix-up. I would expect nothing less from a string that’s meant to stop people from walking and to whiff punish moves. No one should be throwing this out a lot in neutral a lot. This is strictly a whiff punish tool and something to stick out on a read that someone is trying to dash in or walk back in a range where theY should not. If you get read and punished, congratulations to them, but that’s on you for reading wrong, not the character.

F4~df2 loops- f4 is strong very strong with df2 being safe with push back should in theory mean your at raidens strongest position 3/4screen with the chance to use any of your strong individual tools. Not of those tools mean anything in a game where there Is full screen slid dash punch teleport johhnys low strings even kang's f4 can beat out raiden pressing buttons with a micro dash. This is the crux of my point raiden is a whiff punish monster, if this was a game based on footsies he would be top 5 he has ever tool. Im not saying hes the worst fighter ever designed I'm saying that in THIS game hes not better than any other character.

DF2 on block with buff is -5 with push back. No move in this game can ever punish it, not even Raijin’s own discharge. If you are getting hit by fast charge moves or slides that means you were getting predictable and moving after DF2. You can bait and punish these “screw neutral” moves for big damage so the risk reward is never in their favour but in yours. Not to mention we can a 6f “screw neutral” mid that reaches half screen when AMPed and can be used to stuff any attempt to disrespect you after DF2. It’s also safe and on hit guarantees another QC set-up. If they are dashing in to press buttons you walk back and whiff punish their face. If they jump you trip guard/anti-air. If they go yolo you block and punish. If they block you pressure for free. You have read what they will do and counter accordingly (ie play neutral).

I keep repeating this over and over, he is viable sure he just demands more effort and caution with less bang for buck than everyone else and with that definition he is the worst in the game. Doesnt mean hes bad necessarily just not as good as everyone else.

True. So everyone please stop treating this character like he’s unviable trash when he’s been totally viable since the August patch and to a lesser extent day 1. He doesn’t need outlandish buffs to “bring him in line” because he already has good tools.

Am I making any sense here?

All in all? Not really

 

[MKF30]

I tend to use it to bait from time to time. I'll intentionally whiff the first hit (standing kick), then be at just enough distance for the 2nd hit to connect (lunges forward and covers good distance). I'll usually special cancel after the 2nd hit and will shoot out DB4 or will Superman cancel to make space.

And to "ExpectFlames": I don't consider Raiden better or worse in the general sense, just different. He beats certain matchups easier than others, but also suffers in certain matchups. For example, with my Raijin, I tend to beat Kung Lao and Liu Kang players easier than I do Kotal Khan and Shao Kahn players. I think generally speaking, the roster is pretty well balanced, (with the exception of maybe Geras and Sonya).

That's a neat tactic I sometimes cancel into the superman but with a different string.

 

[ExpectFlames]

And to "ExpectFlames": I don't consider Raiden better or worse in the general sense, just different. He beats certain matchups easier than others, but also suffers in certain matchups.
[/QUOTE]
If you dont have an opinion on raidens teir position. Why do you disagree with me?

 

[ExpectFlames]

Only a select few characters in this game have 9f mids, arbitrary giving this to him just because you want to and not because he needs it doesn’t solve his problems at all. The problem with this string is that it is unsafe and the second hit is a high and it has bad whiff recovery making it susceptible to be punished by delayed wake-up. First problem is eliminated by Raijin, second problem should be solved by B14 in theory (punished ppl trying to duck the second hit after the first hit whiffs) but B14 sucks, third problem is solved by the player being smart and not using B12 to pressure on wake-up.


Worst string in the game? 321 would like a word with you. You’re right that it doesn’t anti-air well and it doesn’t hit crouching opponents. You’re also right that there’s zero mix-up. I would expect nothing less from a string that’s meant to stop people from walking and to whiff punish moves. No one should be throwing this out a lot in neutral a lot. This is strictly a whiff punish tool and something to stick out on a read that someone is trying to dash in or walk back in a range where theY should not. If you get read and punished, congratulations to them, but that’s on you for reading wrong, not the character.


DF2 on block with buff is -5 with push back. No move in this game can ever punish it, not even Raijin’s own discharge. If you are getting hit by fast charge moves or slides that means you were getting predictable and moving after DF2. You can bait and punish these “screw neutral” moves for big damage so the risk reward is never in their favour but in yours. Not to mention we can a 6f “screw neutral” mid that reaches half screen when AMPed and can be used to stuff any attempt to disrespect you after DF2. It’s also safe and on hit guarantees another QC set-up. If they are dashing in to press buttons you walk back and whiff punish their face. If they jump you trip guard/anti-air. If they go yolo you block and punish. If they block you pressure for free. You have read what they will do and counter accordingly (ie play neutral).


True. So everyone please stop treating this character like he’s unviable trash when he’s been totally viable since the August patch and to a lesser extent day 1. He doesn’t need outlandish buffs to “bring him in line” because he already has good tools.


All in all? Not really

Ok

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I actually find 321 to be the most worthless string. I have no idea how to really use it.

The only thing I use it for is corner combo after B2 KB. If s3 was more reliable I would be using 32 for a lot of optimal punishes.

Ok

Honestly, dude, why even respond?

 

[Mandolore1123]

The only thing I use it for is corner combo after B2 KB. If s3 was more reliable I would be using 32 for a lot of optimal punishes.


Honestly, dude, why even respond?

I have a question for the B2 KB combos. Should I be doing F3, 243 or F3, D1, 243, or 32, D1, 243? Which one is the more consistent one?
Also for midscreen B2 KB, do you need to dash up before you do F3 in TW so you can get F3~storm cell, JI2, JI3~fly?

 

[MKF30]

Personally, I would just go with F4 instead of F3 does more damage than F3 and the 243 is tougher to hitconfirm/connect than F4, SC, JI2, JI3~Superman.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I have a question for the B2 KB combos. Should I be doing F3, 243 or F3, D1, 243, or 32, D1, 243? Which one is the more consistent one?
Also for midscreen B2 KB, do you need to dash up before you do F3 in TW so you can get F3~storm cell, JI2, JI3~fly?

32, D1, 243 will be your best damage (530 TW, 466 RJ), but you have to be perfect or db2 will whiff. I think F3, D1, 243 is more consistent, but harder to finish with SCamp, j3~fly.
For easy mode just do 32~SCamp, j3, j3~fly for 508.

For mid screen you can just f4~SCamp, j2, f4~fly for more damage and better oki (+35 vs +27 ground/air)

 

[Mandolore1123]

32, D1, 243 will be your best damage (530 TW, 466 RJ), but you have to be perfect or db2 will whiff. I think F3, D1, 243 is more consistent, but harder to finish with SCamp, j3~fly.
For easy mode just do 32~SCamp, j3, j3~fly for 508.

For mid screen you can just f4~SCamp, j2, f4~fly for more damage and better oki (+35 vs +27 ground/air)

Cheers mate

 

[ExpectFlames]

Honestly, dude, why even respond?

Was me deading the beef tired of keeping it up. We all agree it's just semantics at this point.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Was me deading the beef tired of keeping it up. We all agree it's just semantics at this point.

I don't see a beef, nor do I see any semantics.