Raiden Match Footage

[ValeDJ]

I agree with what everyone has said, but I can no way say Raijin belongs near the bottom of the tier list. Raijin is deffo not top 5 like some of the pro players are making out to be. Its Raidens best variation for me personally, although TW has its perks for different match ups against zoners.

I played some dude last week who was getting super salty about my general play with T&L (I mean, how?) so I went to Raijin because he wanted me to, as he was saying Raijin was top 5 because of SonicFox which is a naive comment to make.

Anyway, I'm not going to join the spank banking brigade by saying Raijin is OD now, because he's had these tools (most of them now buffed) since day dot, it's just people didn't want to give him a chance by basing his move sets from TW.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I agree with what everyone has said, but I can no way say Raijin belongs near the bottom of the tier list. Raijin is deffo not top 5 like some of the pro players are making out to be. Its Raidens best variation for me personally, although TW has its perks for different match ups against zoners.

I played some dude last week who was getting super salty about my general play with T&L (I mean, how?) so I went to Raijin because he wanted me to, as he was saying Raijin was top 5 because of SonicFox which is a naive comment to make.

Anyway, I'm not going to join the spank banking brigade by saying Raijin is OD now, because he's had these tools (most of them now buffed) since day dot, it's just people didn't want to give him a chance by basing his move sets from TW.

Yes. Unfortunately, even though Dalphanate and lots of other people have been saying that Raijin is pretty good since the patch, many Raiden players choose to plug up their ears and only focus on TW‘S problems while ignoring the presence of Raijin. Only now do people come back and acknowledge this variation which is sad

 

[Marlow]

Unfortunately it's just how some people approach characters. People just look for the super easy and obvious tools, and if a character doesn't have those things they're instantly written off as bad. No fast safe mid into launcher? Character must be bad.

It always surprises me how many supposed Raiden players showed up in the general discussion thread screaming for Buffs, but seemingly had no clue about what the character could do outside of his B12 string and Storm Cell.

 

[Marlow]

I played some dude last week who was getting super salty about my general play with T&L (I mean, how?) so I went to Raijin because he wanted me to, as he was saying Raijin was top 5 because of SonicFox which is a naive comment to make.

Just curious, do you have any tips and tricks, or things you've learned playing T&L?

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Just curious, do you have any tips and tricks, or things you've learned playing T&L?

Grumble and fume that there's no fly.

 

[ValeDJ]

Just curious, do you have any tips and tricks, or things you've learned playing T&L?

Man, it's hard. I really can only say that's it's just a gimmick/shits and gigs variation.

I guess the main thing I've learnt is that people tend to respect the EX staff after the first few times, but I've come across players who just don't know the match up and jump out of the bubble leaving a small juggle, but I always use f34 as a hard knock down to plant the bubble again. Against zoners like Scarlett/Cetrion/Johnny (Outtake), you're gonna have a bad time even with a trade after a df2 when the the staff is placed.

Theres not a lot of safety other than f3/f34 and timing the EX staff bolt to come out when you pressure with b12 or f3 (or to gimmick the 324).

In the corner, sure, you can get a knock down and place the EX staff on the periphery of the corner to get a b2 mind game going, as you can combo a b2 into another for a KB combo, but it feels wasted if the opponent has the meter to break away.

I find that by keeping outside of jump distance against characters with a slow reversal suits T&L better to abuse the Jo Push as it deceiptively travels a good distance. I'd throw 2 or 3 of them, then when they dash reversal, I would throw another and amplify for the pop up. Damage wise, its pretty garbage and too meter intensive.

Players also seem to freeze at full screen once you place the staff without amplifying, so sometimes I'd recall it for a gimmick...I just wish it did chip if you recalled it!

Just a few things there, but I've not had enough MU experience with most of the cast yet!

 

[Marlow]

Cool. Yeah, I think T&L doesn't really have a place competitively right now, but for some reason I still find myself interested in exploring it a bit and trying to make it work.

I did find that if you hit with F2, you can do F2 into amped Lightning Rod, and it will actually combo them into getting hit by the bubble and leave them right next to you at +17 or something like that. I can sometimes also get that with F4, and sometimes not. It also combos if you cancel F2 or F4 into the Amped Lighting Rod, but that leaves the opponent about starting screen distance away, and Raiden at something like +26 according to the practice mode frame data.


I have a section set up for T&L in the updated Raiden Combo thread, feel free to check that out and if you find anything useful or any tips and tricks about how to play the character feel free to share them. Thanks!

 

[ExpectFlames]

Most of us here agreed pre 3rd variation patch raijin was raidens best variation. Unshaven and magicman clearly havent checked the raiden forum like at all. Personally my view of raiden has not changed staying consistant raiden has great tools none of which are symbiotic with one another you still must work harder than your opponent in EVERY matchup. Dont let fox fool you all this raiden talk now is 100% up play. Do tier list matter? Probably not but seriously ask yourself outside of the OBVIOUS politics with sonic fox and edboon do you really think raiden is the same type of character as kang geras and better than Sonya?
I'm all for character exploration but taking what we already knew and spinning it into something else I refuse to be apart of.

 

[MKF30]

Yeah I think people would have to be ignorant to agree with SF's list, it's not remotely accurate. Nobody can convince me that Raiden any version is higher than Jaxx, Jacqui, Scorp etc lol just not happening among others on his list like LK, Sonya, Geras etc.

I find Rajin and TW I won't say are even but almost, what I mean by that is Raijin has it's strong points with the buffs, set ups etc however losing the teleport loses mobility and can be zoned pretty easily. His TW doesn't have the perks of Rajin but has the teleport which means he can zone and anti zone, as well as escape trouble.

 

[ExpectFlames]

Wave dashing in the game makes zoning irrelavant for the most part. Even with that raiden raijin or any other variant doesnt have the tools to be anything other than a chore to play competitively. Is he viable sure is he more viable than every other character on the roster ABSOLUTLY NOT.

 

[MKF30]

Yeah, not sure about irrelevant but it's definitely one way to deal with it or teleports if you have one. Though I've noticed certain characters can wave dash/dash cancel much better than others with the speed, though if you're full screen you can still zone what I do if someone is good at dashing in, just throw them lol to keep them honest. Exactly Flames, but sadly you have the Sonic shills in that one thread that actually believe Raiden is "S" tier because Sonic says so...hilarious honestly. Nobody can predict the future but I will say without proper buffs, nobody's winning many tourneys down the line with him.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Wave dashing in the game makes zoning irrelavant for the most part.

It doesn’t though. Only a few characters have good wave dashes to get past zoning.

 

[ExpectFlames]

It doesn’t though. Only a few characters have good wave dashes to get past zoning.

WD in general is game breaking if you dont have a mid projectile it doesn matter if it's a good WD or not. Most characters can get away with a double dash into a D4 yo contest most zoning of your keeping people honest. Once I learned it zoning kinda became nonsensical to use. WD INTO f4 or 2 is absolutely nuts

 

[Mandolore1123]

SF Raijin VS DJT NW.
Whole thing felt pretty even, not sure if NW can react to our projectile startup and reflect at ranges that aren’t full screen. We do well at close range due to DF2. Damage is in our favour as well. We also shut down F12 and 111 unless NW decides to yolo cancel into the launcher.

 

[MagicMan357]

The downplay gotta stop

 

[Mandolore1123]

Raijin VS Ascension Kotal
MU is played pretty well. Raijin can reversal punish F24 and F2, and you can dance outside of F24 range and chuck BF1 and DB4 projectiles until Kotal does F2 then we can whiff punish for big damage. Air superman is a very good way to escape corners since Kotal doesn’t have a fast enough full screen move to punish. We can punish sunlight from full screen with Fly and Fly KB.

 

[Mandolore1123]

TW VS SD Noob
TW got mopped pretty bad, since SD slide covers a lot of ranges, especially the ranges that Raiden thrives at. Since TW isn’t very good up close and doesn’t have the reversal option of discharge, it’s hard to contest the string staggers into slide from Noob.

 

[ExpectFlames]

Were the bizarro Johnny community. they say a amazing character is bad, we say a bad character is amazing. I'm checking out of the hysteria. Fox wont dare use raiden until a grand finals which is the substance of my argument screen cap this.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Were the bizarro Johnny community. they say a amazing character is bad, we say a bad character is amazing. I'm checking out of the hysteria. Fox wont dare use raiden until a grand finals which is the substance of my argument screen cap this.

Who’s saying Raiden is amazing? Raijin’s got good tools and eliminates Raiden’s primary weakness which is safety. Now Raijin’s main weakness is zoning, which can be circumvented by TW at the cost of safety. Some people don’t know how this character works and insist he is trash when he has tools, you just need to put in work. I don’t get why Sonic’s tier list has caused such upheaval. Just let him play and we can see if he can come up with some new stuff. If he does it only benefits Raiden players and if he doesn’t then it doesn’t change a thing.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

Who’s saying Raiden is amazing? Raijin’s got good tools and eliminates Raiden’s primary weakness which is safety. Now Raijin’s main weakness is zoning, which can be circumvented by TW at the cost of safety. Some people don’t know how this character works and insist he is trash when he has tools, you just need to put in work. I don’t get why Sonic’s tier list has caused such upheaval. Just let him play and we can see if he can come up with some new stuff. If he does it only benefits Raiden players and if he doesn’t then it doesn’t change a thing.

Exactly.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

Most of us here agreed pre 3rd variation patch raijin was raidens best variation. Unshaven and magicman clearly havent checked the raiden forum like at all. Personally my view of raiden has not changed staying consistant raiden has great tools none of which are symbiotic with one another you still must work harder than your opponent in EVERY matchup. Dont let fox fool you all this raiden talk now is 100% up play. Do tier list matter? Probably not but seriously ask yourself outside of the OBVIOUS politics with sonic fox and edboon do you really think raiden is the same type of character as kang geras and better than Sonya?
I'm all for character exploration but taking what we already knew and spinning it into something else I refuse to be apart of.

I think you might've misunderstood what I was saying earlier about Raijin. I was getting the point accross that even BEFORE Raijin's August patch "buffs", he was still solid and equally as viable as TW, just in a different playstyle.

And I say "buffs" in quotes, because it was more of a mix of buffs and ninja nerfs...

Before the August patch, Rajin had:

1. A way more powerful 4 frame discharge; this allowed Raijin to punish even tighter gaps than now, and forced certain matchups to switch up their style.
2. A longer range Amplified Electric Current staff poke (DB4) (no launcher ability though; it was strictly a poke, and a combo ender). The 2 hits on Amp also were "Low, Low" before; they were switched to "Low, Mid" and the max poke range was ninja nerfed after the patch. (The reach is still decent post-patch, but it used to be insanely good before, allowing Raijin to scare zoners and be more in conrol of spacing and distance in the match).
3. We used to have access to a really cool corner combo restand using the 4-frame discharge, basically linking together 2 combo strings, for one continuous big combo. This was also nerfed after the patch.

Despite not having a midscreen launcher at that time with Raijin, he still had other unique strengths and I was able to hold my own with plenty of great players online.

When the August patch arrived and the changes were made, it actually felt weird for a while, I kept whiffing the Electric Current pokes and I was trying to punish gaps that could no longer be punished lol. Took me awhile to get used to.

 

[MKF30]

That Raiden vs Noob looked rough, I don't blame the guy I mean Raiden is far slower than Noob up close like he is with a lot of character.

 

[ExpectFlames]

Who’s saying Raiden is amazing? Raijin’s got good tools and eliminates Raiden’s primary weakness which is safety. Now Raijin’s main weakness is zoning, which can be circumvented by TW at the cost of safety. Some people don’t know how this character works and insist he is trash when he has tools, you just need to put in work. I don’t get why Sonic’s tier list has caused such upheaval. Just let him play and we can see if he can come up with some new stuff. If he does it only benefits Raiden players and if he doesn’t then it doesn’t change a thing.

Personally I do not think raiden is better than any character currently forthe specific point that he isnt cohesive. I also disagree that raiijin solves raidens issues. Even with df2 for safety AT BEST it puts you back to effectually losing. Resetting the neutral for raiden means he is always at a disadvantage because his buttons are shit or at best get you back to df2. realistically raiden still has little to open you up and a stupid unsafe 50/50. Raiden as a character is fine, I agree he is viable even after that he is usable. That doesn't change the fact that he is worse than everyone else for stupid completely fixable reasons.
I keep posting because I don't want the mood on the character to change. From my point of view their is a concerted effort by the devs and pros to make us feel bad about not liking the game. Accusing us the casual of not being skilled enough or saying things like" why did I have to play this character to see he could do x or y", (even though he could always do that). It doesnt sit right with me.

 

[ExpectFlames]

I think you might've misunderstood what I was saying earlier about Raijin. I was getting the point accross that even BEFORE Raijin's August patch "buffs", he was still solid and equally as viable as TW, just in a different playstyle.

And I say "buffs" in quotes, because it was more of a mix of buffs and ninja nerfs...

Before the August patch, Rajin had:

1. A way more powerful 4 frame discharge; this allowed Raijin to punish even tighter gaps than now, and forced certain matchups to switch up their style.
2. A longer range Amplified Electric Current staff poke (DB4) (no launcher ability though; it was strictly a poke, and a combo ender). The 2 hits on Amp also were "Low, Low" before; they were switched to "Low, Mid" and the max poke range was ninja nerfed after the patch. (The reach is still decent post-patch, but it used to be insanely good before, allowing Raijin to scare zoners and be more in conrol of spacing and distance in the match).
3. We used to have access to a really cool corner combo restand using the 4-frame discharge, basically linking together 2 combo strings, for one continuous big combo. This was also nerfed after the patch.

Despite not having a midscreen launcher at that time with Raijin, he still had other unique strengths and I was able to hold my own with plenty of great players online.

When the August patch arrived and the changes were made, it actually felt weird for a while, I kept whiffing the Electric Current pokes and I was trying to punish gaps that could no longer be punished lol. Took me awhile to get used to.

I played raiijin from day 1 I remember. Opinions may change but facts rarely do. Raiden is the worst of every good character in the game. I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Personally I do not think raiden is better than any character currently forthe specific point that he isnt cohesive. I also disagree that raiijin solves raidens issues. Even with df2 for safety AT BEST it puts you back to effectually losing. Resetting the neutral for raiden means he is always at a disadvantage because his buttons are shit or at best get you back to df2. realistically raiden still has little to open you up and a stupid unsafe 50/50. Raiden as a character is fine, I agree he is viable even after that he is usable. That doesn't change the fact that he is worse than everyone else for stupid completely fixable reasons.
I keep posting because I don't want the mood on the character to change. From my point of view their is a concerted effort by the devs and pros to make us feel bad about not liking the game. Accusing us the casual of not being skilled enough or saying things like" why did I have to play this character to see he could do x or y", (even though he could always do that). It doesnt sit right with me.

I don’t get how Raiden has bad buttons, he has great mids that are fast, cover good range and can be made completely safe in Raijin. He has in Raijin:

• B12: His 11f hit-confirmable string that goes into 30% on hit and DF2 on block, doing good chip and resetting neutral at a range where many advancing mids don’t hit you
• F3: His safe 11F advancing mid that functions as his main pressure tool, can be cancelled into DF2 for safety and spacing but has a flawless block gap or can be cancelled into F32 for +44 hit advantage and without flawless block gap. You cannot hit confirm it, but on hit you are +15 and you can jail into his 243 string and again go for fly on hit or DF2 on block. You also get a free strike/throw mix-up after F3 on hit. Since F3 is safe, you can threaten with flawless block reversals, making it an effective stagger normal as well, so you can go for throw.
• F11: A 16f high that doesn’t have a hurt box and reaches further than B1 and F3, it can be used to whiff punish other moves that you may not feel comfortable punishing with B12. You can hit confirm it, F11 itself is safe and can be safer with DF2. F11 is also excellent in punishing moves like D’vorah’s ovipositor normals due to the nature of the staff hitbox. It has obvious weaknesses since it is a high and the hitbox is inconsistent across the staff, not to mention the upwards angle of F1 makes it whiff on characters. However, this doesn’t take away from the fact that it does its job well.
• F4: A half-screen 19f mid that is only -3 on block and can be cancelled into DF2 for safety. It jails from Raiden’s D4 and starts off Raiden’s most damaging combos. F4~DF2 has no gap, and you can even stagger it when they expect the DF2 and go into throw or poke because F4 is only -3. Raiden can easily suffocate people in the corner by just staying at F4 range and doing F4~DF2 over and over again until the opponent inevitably makes a mistake and you get a full combo.

Because of these buttons Raiden can control the area from half screen or 3-4 character lengths away quite well, can unless the opponent can something to contest at that range (like SD Noob’s slide) then Raiden holds the advantage in neutral. They do a forward advancing string? -> doesn’t reach -> whiff punish; they sit and block? -> F4 into DF2 -> back to square one but they just lost chip; they jump? -> anti-air with DB2/trip guard into full combo. Of course they can bait the F4 and punish, but that means you just lost neutral and it’s nothing to do with the tools of the character.

Sure this character doesn’t have any autoshimmies, or a 9-mid string that is a 1-size-fits-all and has many mind games off of it, and Raijin in particular suffers from being zoned out because Raiden’s wave dash isn’t really very good. These make him a worse character when compared to the top tiers, but this doesn’t take away from the fact that he still has good tools to use.

I will say that yes, in a certain sense Raiden’s kit does contradict itself, especially in the beginning because in the pre-release build he was clearly meant to be a zone with a fast lightning strike that was much safer on block, but they changed it by nerfing his main zoning tool but his normals still had the bad frame data. Raijin after the patch was the band-aid for that and it has arguably done it’s job well by giving him a consistent way to gain safety, but that safety can still be effectively countered by reading correctly the FB gaps, or reading what the Raiden player will do after DF2 on block.