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Proposed Nerf Discussion

foxof42

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
MysTiiK_V said:
never said he was broke, he just needs some adjustments. His mb divekick needs to be -4 no matter where it hits and needs to be a lil slower and black magic being a fullscreen 1 bar 40% is kinda ridiculous. Either make it more unsafe or make it slower or if they dont adjust that they should nerf some of the plus frames he has.
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I think black magic being slower and more unsafe would be fine. I see no reason why he should be able to shotgun it in some matchups. Once from fullscreen, k. Anything closer than that should be seriously asking to be punished. Besides which, no good Adam is going to pull that shenanigans, so I think further discouraging it wouldn't change the meta at the intermediate level and higher.
 
South

South

I'd rather SHOW than TELL ~ Poison Ivy
Moms4lif3 said:
How does cheetah promote random gameplay? If you play against fundamentally sound players you will get eaten alive for doing random things with her, believe me. Cheetah is not at all random if you want to play her seriously, actually you need to make really good reads with her to get anything going and have good reactions. Just look at revets gameplay and tell me he just does whatever.
Also Superman is kinda braindead because of f23, but again on higher lvl most people don't really see him as a problem I think.
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Random leaps, random jumps, random d3, it's all random @RevetLeafing is a solid player with the goddess of hunt & best with her but to me she encourages the random play that's what she thrives on
 
Moms4lif3

Moms4lif3

Bruh.
South said:
Random leaps, random jumps, random d3, it's all random @RevetLeafing is a solid player with the goddess of hunt & best with her but to me she encourages the random play that's what she thrives on
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Ok, I understand if that is your opinion. Throwing out random d3 and random jumps is probably not a good idea in any competitive environment though, no matter what character you play. As for random leaps, they will also get punished by good players.
I guess in a more casual environment many things that are not advised by a more serious standpoint, will get thrown out generally but it doesn't mean that's what you are supposed to do. Cheetah's neutral is not the best (some say she doesn't have neutral) so casual players will do random stuff to get in, since they don't know what else to do. Cheetah's gameplan is pretty straight forward in most matchups, so I don't really see how the character itself promotes random gameplay, just because casual players tend to use her in a random fashion.
Any character will be random to a certain degree in the hands of casual players, if there were more good Cheetah players we would probably see more calculated gameplay out of her. For example there is only a handful of well known flash players out there, who make the character look great. Most flashes online though, will also do random RMS and rely on jumpins a lot since on their level of play it's what works. Still doesn't mean flash promotes random gameplay at all.
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Adam shouldnt be able to cancel air normals into divekick on whiff but thats it. Cancelling into specials on whiff is something no one should be able to do
 
wsj515

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
foxof42 said:
I think black magic being slower and more unsafe would be fine. I see no reason why he should be able to shotgun it in some matchups. Once from fullscreen, k. Anything closer than that should be seriously asking to be punished. Besides which, no good Adam is going to pull that shenanigans, so I think further discouraging it wouldn't change the meta at the intermediate level and higher.
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In what world can Adam ever "shotgun" black magic?? Honestly, it just sounds like you and Mystiik fundamentally do not understand the matchup.
 
A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Invincible Salads said:
still don't see the b123 as being a big deal, so i won't agree with that nerf at all, and like i said, mashing d1 option select being a thing in this game, no i don't think the gap for b12~breath should be made bigger, because then everyone can just mash d1 whenever she does that string.

bigger hurtbox on d1? sure that's fine.
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You don't want the gap bigger because people will punish the gap that's supposed to be punishable?

B123 is safe, confirm it.
 
Invincible Salads

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
and who says its supposed to be punishable?

then whats the point of mb breath being safe if you make the gaps before it punishable?
 
Marinjuana

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Invincible Salads said:
and who says its supposed to be punishable?

then whats the point of mb breath being safe if you make the gaps before it punishable?
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Because if you condition the opponent to block something like b123 then maybe they won't be ready to punish the gap of MB breath.

But hey if you have a problem with it being safe let's just make it super minus! :DOGE
 
Invincible Salads

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
Marinjuana said:
Because if you condition the opponent to block something like b123 then maybe they won't be ready to punish the gap of MB breath.

But hey if you have a problem with it being safe let's just make it super minus! :DOGE
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yea no, lol

and, nah i still won' t agree with a change like that.
 
foxof42

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
wsj515 said:
In what world can Adam ever "shotgun" black magic?? Honestly, it just sounds like you and Mystiik fundamentally do not understand the matchup.
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The world is: Captain Cold perpetually with zero fear, Scarecrow's trait after blocking the first one, and some characters when attempting to dash up and then jump after blocking one. In the case of Crow's trait, it has 56 frames of recovery. Black magic starts up at 22 and recovers in 28. I'm fine with Aquaman having that ability to continuously check you, but if it's a full combo starter, nah. I'm saying it's too good as a check against some characters so creating more recovery might discourage using it recklessly, which most good Adam players don't anyways. Just bump it from -28 to more around Atrocitus's puddle at -40ish and we're good. That way when it's blocked, the Adam player knows he has made a significant error and has to live with a potential double dash or a more consistent punish in neutral.

I'm saying this with extreme bias of course, because when I play characters that *do* have any kind of fullscreen presence it's not really an issue. It's just kinda gross to me the way it can be used in some MUs so I'd like to see the need to use it smarter enforced.

Edit: sorry to still be talking about Adam. Something something Supergirl? Someone something Catwoman?
 
South

South

I'd rather SHOW than TELL ~ Poison Ivy
Moms4lif3 said:
Ok, I understand if that is your opinion. Throwing out random d3 and random jumps is probably not a good idea in any competitive environment though, no matter what character you play. As for random leaps, they will also get punished by good players.
I guess in a more casual environment many things that are not advised by a more serious standpoint, will get thrown out generally but it doesn't mean that's what you are supposed to do. Cheetah's neutral is not the best (some say she doesn't have neutral) so casual players will do random stuff to get in, since they don't know what else to do. Cheetah's gameplan is pretty straight forward in most matchups, so I don't really see how the character itself promotes random gameplay, just because casual players tend to use her in a random fashion.
Any character will be random to a certain degree in the hands of casual players, if there were more good Cheetah players we would probably see more calculated gameplay out of her. For example there is only a handful of well known flash players out there, who make the character look great. Most flashes online though, will also do random RMS and rely on jumpins a lot since on their level of play it's what works. Still doesn't mean flash promotes random gameplay at all.
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Except every flash does jp1/JP2 I forgot exact one... but they use it because it's literally a unblockable example
Jip1/2, d12, sonic pound )oh, oh, oh, low, low, oh)
Jip1/2, f2, sonic pound (oh, oh, oh, oh, oh)
Jip1/2, f2, d12, sonic pound (oh, oh, oh, oh, low, low, overhead)
Jip1/2, d1, f2, sonic pound (oh, oh, oh, low, oh, oh

All options safe at -3 or +1 iirc and nobody's guessing right even 25% of the time so you can't compare flash to cheetah because flash is braindead once he's inside
 
just_2swift

just_2swift

MK1 is the best MK period.
foxof42 said:
I think black magic being slower and more unsafe would be fine. I see no reason why he should be able to shotgun it in some matchups. Once from fullscreen, k. Anything closer than that should be seriously asking to be punished. Besides which, no good Adam is going to pull that shenanigans, so I think further discouraging it wouldn't change the meta at the intermediate level and higher.
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Nope. You and your mystic friend have a vendetta against Adam and this is confirmation of that. This reminds me of the temp Lao witch Hunt of mkx. Where he was fine at +12 but ppl didn't want ex spin to launch anymore lol I'll never forget that. But scorps hellfire active frames went untouched. Same thing will happen again in i2. Nerf this nerf that then characters like Robin will be top. He's safe on pretty much everything and ppl are fine with it.
 
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