Overwatch Discussion Thread

[Zoidberg747]

I mean so many tanks have counter measures, McCree should never live long enough to unload two clips unless your team is just derping off somewhere else

If McCree does the flash bang, FtH, roll, Fth combo right there is no way for tanks to get out. Otherwise it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue in competitive play. They can make it even more tight by doing FtH, flashbang, roll, FtH as well.

And while its true that your team can help you out, that would require focusing all of your attention on McCree and not on the other 5 players on the enemy team(an exception to this is if a Reinhardt gets stunned. In that case most teams will focus all fire on the McCree so they aren't left without the shield).

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

I think people are kind of right about torbjorn on console he is a lot harder to fight than on PC

 

[Doombawkz]

If McCree does the flash bang, FtH, roll, Fth combo right there is no way for tanks to get out. Otherwise it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue in competitive play. They can make it even more tight by doing FtH, flashbang, roll, FtH as well.

And while its true that your team can help you out, that would require focusing all of your attention on McCree and not on the other 5 players on the enemy team(an exception to this is if a Reinhardt gets stunned. In that case most teams will focus all fire on the McCree so they aren't left without the shield).

If I'm a roadhog, McCree is Swiss Cheese before he gets the flashbang off. Like the moment he is in my line of sight you better believe he eats the hook.
D.Va can soak flashbang with her defensive shield, which is the only reason McCree would be in your face regardless.
Reinhart shield blocks it completely, he doesn't take the stun last I checked.
Only tank that would have an obvious issue would be maybe winston or Zarya, and the latter isn't chosen in competitive play.

Fact of the matter is, McCree can't just Yolo in and burst a tank, especially not during a hard push. He can maybe catch one on the way to a koth objective, but thats about the sum of it and he isn't the only character who can do so.
If he jumps into a team who is moving a truck and tries to fan bang a tank, even at middle levels, he is probably going to die before he finishes his roll considering he has what... 200hp? Also he possibly kills one character but burned his only escape tool, so what you're describing is, as I said, only a situation that occurs when the rest of your team isn't around and he catches the enemy tank completely off-guard.

If you are counting that, then I could name like 3 or 4 other characters who can do the same job to some degree. Tanks aren't particularly hard to kill on their own, which is the only time McCree is going to get a confirmed kill on one.

 

[TakeAChance]

If I'm a roadhog, McCree is Swiss Cheese before he gets the flashbang off. Like the moment he is in my line of sight you better believe he eats the hook.
D.Va can soak flashbang with her defensive shield, which is the only reason McCree would be in your face regardless.
Reinhart shield blocks it completely, he doesn't take the stun last I checked.
Only tank that would have an obvious issue would be maybe winston or Zarya, and the latter isn't chosen in competitive play.

Fact of the matter is, McCree can't just Yolo in and burst a tank, especially not during a hard push. He can maybe catch one on the way to a koth objective, but thats about the sum of it and he isn't the only character who can do so.
If he jumps into a team who is moving a truck and tries to fan bang a tank, even at middle levels, he is probably going to die before he finishes his roll considering he has what... 200hp? Also he possibly kills one character but burned his only escape tool, so what you're describing is, as I said, only a situation that occurs when the rest of your team isn't around and he catches the enemy tank completely off-guard.

If you are counting that, then I could name like 3 or 4 other characters who can do the same job to some degree. Tanks aren't particularly hard to kill on their own, which is the only time McCree is going to get a confirmed kill on one.

Except in this situation you now have a road hog just for mcree and are feeding the other team ultras and are only ever going to be hunting for a lucky mcree kill while the opponent's team is hidden behind the reinhart. You are acting like the mcree won't have his team with him too. When you factor in an even situation amongst two teams, why wouldn't you want a mcree there?

 

[Pterodactyl]

Breaking into the 30's with a support feels real nice.

 

[Doombawkz]

Except in this situation you now have a road hog just for mcree and are feeding the other team ultras and are only ever going to be hunting for a lucky mcree kill while the opponent's team is hidden behind the reinhart. You are acting like the mcree won't have his team with him too. When you factor in an even situation amongst two teams, why wouldn't you want a mcree there?

Except no, I have a Roadhog for pretty much anyone. McCree also happens to fall victim. That's why I listed all of the tanks, because all of them have a means to beat down McCree if he just goes running in to kill anything, and it's no different than what they would normally do in the first place. If their team is behind a reinhart, McCree is just a slower shooting S:76. If he comes in front to do his job, then he is either alone and doing something most characters can do, or he is in a group and likely finding himself in small chunklets on the floor.

And in all of those cases where he isn't, other characters are better suited. Even if McCree has his team there, he has next to no escape and basically relies on fan bang to get the job done.
If he can't, you might as well have picked pretty much anyone else. Which goes back to what I said in the first place, he is the best of the sub-optimal picks. You'd pick him in the case that you don't NEED anything else specific.
He is a space-filler. A good one, strong without a doubt, but very very very far from being overpowered or needing a nerf. A good McCree is worth about as much as a good Soldier:76 in most cases, the only time that isn't true is when McCree is ambushing lone tanks on their way to an objective, which pretty much any character can do.

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

D.Va can soak flashbang with her defensive shield, which is the only reason McCree would be in your face regardless.
Reinhart shield blocks it completely, he doesn't take the stun last I checked.

any mcree who knows what they're doing can decimate a D.va or Reinhardt. D. Va's shield only last a few seconds if that and he could just wait it out. As for Reinhardt he can just walk through the shield and flash or even throw it over top of the shield, this alone takes the shield out and exposes what ever he was blocking, even if mcree dies before killing a single person he already achieved his goal of disrupting the cover allowing teammates to take advantage. Winston/zarya cant do much against mcree as is. As for roadhog, yes he gives mcree some trouble but if mcree come from a flank its over, you've now lost your job as a tank/being a high priority target because you died AND given mcree/ his teammates their alts. and you better not let mcree flank with high noon

 

[Doombawkz]

any mcree who knows what they're doing can decimate a D.va or Reinhardt. D. Va's shield only last a few seconds if that and he could just wait it out. As for Reinhardt he can just walk through the shield and flash or even throw it over top of the shield, this alone takes the shield out and exposes what ever he was blocking, even if mcree dies before killing a single person he already achieved his goal of disrupting the cover allowing teammates to take advantage. Winston/zarya cant do much against mcree as is. As for roadhog, yes he gives mcree some trouble but if mcree come from a flank its over, you've now lost your job as a tank/being a high priority target because you died AND given mcree/ his teammates their alts. and you better not let mcree flank with high noon

Everything you listed is under the assumption that McCree can afford to wait and would be in range to take advantage, or would be able to run behind Reinhart's shield without drawbacks. Guess when that happens: when the tank is alone, and literally that's the only time. Every other time, McCree isn't going to be able to just waltz into cover and do anything. Every other time, he is a slower shooting S:76 with a worse ult and no rocket. McCree knowing what he is doing or not has nothing to really do with the fact that if the enemy team is grouped up he isn't going to be able to make a play on his own. Not with 200hp, and not in a way most other characters could do except easier.

Throwing the flashbang over the shield is a very very VERY best-case-scenario situation. It takes into assumption so many things that saying it like it's just what happens is completely false. You'd have to be at the right range, not die, have the space above them to throw it, the Reinhart would have to be at a certain angle, moving a certain way, and facing a certain direction. If even one of those doesn't pan out then you've wasted your only valuable asset as McCree.

And don't let McCree flank with high noon can be said of any character.

Don't let Soldier:76 flank with tactical visor
Don't let Reinhart flank with Earthshatter
Don't let Roadhog flank with Full Hog
Don't let Bastion flank with... well... himself.
Don't let Zarya flank with gravity bomb (even though she doesn't need to)
Don't let Junkrat flank with anything, really.
Don't let Symmetra flank with teleporter.
Don't let Genji flank with Dragon Blade
Don't let Hanzo flank with Dragon Arrow
Don't let Tracer flank with Pulse Bomb
Don't let Reaper flank with Death Lotus
Don't let Pharah flank with Barrage

I could go on.

 

[Zoidberg747]

If I'm a roadhog, McCree is Swiss Cheese before he gets the flashbang off. Like the moment he is in my line of sight you better believe he eats the hook.
D.Va can soak flashbang with her defensive shield, which is the only reason McCree would be in your face regardless.
Reinhart shield blocks it completely, he doesn't take the stun last I checked.
Only tank that would have an obvious issue would be maybe winston or Zarya, and the latter isn't chosen in competitive play.

Fact of the matter is, McCree can't just Yolo in and burst a tank, especially not during a hard push. He can maybe catch one on the way to a koth objective, but thats about the sum of it and he isn't the only character who can do so.
If he jumps into a team who is moving a truck and tries to fan bang a tank, even at middle levels, he is probably going to die before he finishes his roll considering he has what... 200hp? Also he possibly kills one character but burned his only escape tool, so what you're describing is, as I said, only a situation that occurs when the rest of your team isn't around and he catches the enemy tank completely off-guard.

If you are counting that, then I could name like 3 or 4 other characters who can do the same job to some degree. Tanks aren't particularly hard to kill on their own, which is the only time McCree is going to get a confirmed kill on one.

1. "McCree is eating the chain as soon as he gets in my los" a bad one sure, but a good McCree can flank and will wait until you are preoccupied to go in for the kill.
2. D. Va is one were you have to use the flash bang first. And again you could absorb it but McCree will not come at you head on and will try and find the right time to use it.
3. You throw the flashbang over the Rein shield, he's forced to drop it and he's dead. McCree is a hard counter to Rein because of this.
4. Zarya is and has always been used in competitive play. She's always been used because of her effectiveness as an off tank and her ability to create wombo combos with the ults to lead to a team wipe. Not to mention her shields when properly used can nullify enemy ults. Last I checked she was 3rd in pick rates among the tanks, with Rein and Winston being ahead of her.

And to the second point, nowhere in my post did I say McCree can just waltz up and take a tank out. But a good high level McCree will come at you from an angle and flank to get the drop on you and then you're dead. He also doesn't go for tanks when their entire team is around them, he clears out the squishies first with his team then finishes the tanks off when they are the last ones standing.

I suggest you go watch any recent tournament footage of guys like Vallutaja, Surefour, Azk, Coolmatt69, or any other top McCree player. With good positioning and situational awareness, good McCrees can and will pick off tanks. And as Blizzard has said themselves, he was never meant to have that capacity which is why he is getting nerfed.,

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

Everything you listed is under the assumption that McCree can afford to wait and would be in range to take advantage, or would be able to run behind Reinhart's shield without drawbacks. Guess when that happens: when the tank is alone, and literally that's the only time. Every other time, McCree isn't going to be able to just waltz into cover and do anything. Every other time, he is a slower shooting S:76 with a worse ult and no rocket. McCree knowing what he is doing or not has nothing to really do with the fact that if the enemy team is grouped up he isn't going to be able to make a play on his own. Not with 200hp, and not in a way most other characters could do expect easier.

Throwing the flashbang over the shield is a very very VERY best-case-scenario situation. It takes into assumption so many things that saying it like it's just what happens is completely false. You'd have to be at the right range, not die, have the space above them to throw it, the Reinhart would have to be at a certain angle, moving a certain way, and facing a certain direction. If even one of those doesn't pan out then you've wasted your only valuable asset as McCree.

you are seriously underestimating mcrees overall stopping power considering he has a output of 840 damage in under 2 seconds WITH a grenade that stuns people. Mcree out DPSs every character in the game. Mcree is just a more powerful, less mobile reaper, if you are playing payload and 4 of your teammates is on the payload, Mcree is licking his chops at this moment while he flanks you, kills your flank counters and then continues to harass your team from behind when he gets back his grenade which then opens up opportunities for the rest of his team. These situations you keep coming up with have mcree going up against a group of people by himself. Your not going to be able to move the payload against a competent team with 2 people on the load. even then 2 mcrees flanking at the same time can take out 3-4 people while the rest of your team eats up the left overs. the team who can flank most likely gets the upperhand in the fight and mcree wins that battle everytime

 

[Doombawkz]

With good positioning and situational awareness, good McCrees can and will pick off tanks. And as Blizzard has said themselves, he was never meant to have that capacity which is why he is getting nerfed.,

What I'm saying is that can be said of a lot of characters. Being out-of-line with design philosophy is one thing, and if Blizzard thinks it's too beefy then whatever, but me personally I don't see him as any more threatening than the multitude of other characters who can do the same thing only faster, better, or with more safety.

you are seriously underestimating mcrees overall stopping power considering he has a output of 840 damage in under 2 seconds WITH a grenade that stuns people. Mcree out DPSs every character in the game. Mcree is just a more powerful, less mobile reaper, if you are playing payload and 4 of your teammates is on the payload, Mcree is licking his chops at this moment while he flanks you, kills your flank counters and then continues to harass your team from behind when he gets back his grenade which then opens up opportunities for the rest of his team. These situations you keep coming up with have mcree going up against a group of people by himself. Your not going to be able to move the payload against a competent team with 2 people on the load. even then 2 mcrees flanking at the same time can take out 3-4 people while the rest of your team eats up the left overs. the team who can flank most likely gets the upperhand in the fight and mcree wins that battle everytime

But so can most characters. I know McCree's damage output is high if he can get it off, but 840 damage in 2 seconds is equivalent to what... 2 junkrat grenades hitting 3 people, which he can do from almost a full point away AND has more mobility? And McCree is only hitting one person, assuming the flashbang actually hits. And when it happens he has no stun or roll for what... 8 seconds? He can spend his entire kit to burst someone down, but then so can S:76 who also has sprint and a heal. So can reaper who can go invulnerable and teleport. So can Tracer who can blink in, buzz a squishy, and jump back out, and back in and out over and over.

McCree's selling point is fan bang. It's more valuable in the few cases where it works perfectly and he can get away, and otherwise is, imo, less valuable than the multitude of other characters who can do the same job but better and don't rely on an 8 second cooldown grenade to be a viable choice. He can break a tank, which is cool and dandy, or mow down a squishy target which I mean who can't? I mean shit, even Mei has better CC and can shut entire teams down from huge distances away, AND has a game changing ultimate, AND has survivability. The only thing she doesn't have is the range McCree has, but otherwise if we assume 2 seconds of free-firing because you've caught the opponents off-guard and they are somehow unable to react, then Mei has no trouble dropping a reinhart shield either. Mei has no trouble setting up for any number of plays.

If McCree is with a group against a group, then his value comes from the situation where other characters would be more effective in total. I'd prefer a Pharah take 2 seconds to lob 3 missles into the heart of the enemy team behind their tank and just outright kill half of them and neuter their push, or junkrat lobbing 2 grenades and a satchel charge both damaging and displacing them, or soldier 76 shooting a helix missle and unloading a clip into whoever, over McCree running in and killing only one person and then possibly dying or throwing one grenade and doing 420 damage because he can't afford to slam two hammers into it. Maybe that's just me, maybe I favor safety over raw throughput, but when I look at other characters who can do McCree's job but get away with it and only fall short in the absolute best-case scenario, I still can't admit that McCree is "broken" or even "overpowered".

He is a good character, a strong character, a good all-rounder, but not someone I'd pick over a character who has a purpose and isn't just the "best filler".

 

[Zoidberg747]

Everything you listed is under the assumption that McCree can afford to wait and would be in range to take advantage, or would be able to run behind Reinhart's shield without drawbacks. Guess when that happens: when the tank is alone, and literally that's the only time. Every other time, McCree isn't going to be able to just waltz into cover and do anything. Every other time, he is a slower shooting S:76 with a worse ult and no rocket. McCree knowing what he is doing or not has nothing to really do with the fact that if the enemy team is grouped up he isn't going to be able to make a play on his own. Not with 200hp, and not in a way most other characters could do except easier.

Throwing the flashbang over the shield is a very very VERY best-case-scenario situation. It takes into assumption so many things that saying it like it's just what happens is completely false. You'd have to be at the right range, not die, have the space above them to throw it, the Reinhart would have to be at a certain angle, moving a certain way, and facing a certain direction. If even one of those doesn't pan out then you've wasted your only valuable asset as McCree.

And don't let McCree flank with high noon can be said of any character.

Don't let Soldier:76 flank with tactical visor
Don't let Reinhart flank with Earthshatter
Don't let Roadhog flank with Full Hog
Don't let Bastion flank with... well... himself.
Don't let Zarya flank with gravity bomb (even though she doesn't need to)
Don't let Junkrat flank with anything, really.
Don't let Symmetra flank with teleporter.
Don't let Genji flank with Dragon Blade
Don't let Hanzo flank with Dragon Arrow
Don't let Tracer flank with Pulse Bomb
Don't let Reaper flank with Death Lotus
Don't let Pharah flank with Barrage

I could go on.

Half of those are ults lmao. We're talking about an alternate fire here...

Also keep in mind he is the only character that in high level play has been able to wipe entire teams without ultimate. Like I said, watch the top McCrees and how they play. Saying he is the best of the sub-optimal goes against the entire meta of the game right now. Every single tournament team has at least one McCree on their team, that isn't a sub-optimal character.

I think people are kind of right about torbjorn on console he is a lot harder to fight than on PC

Huh? Hes just as easy to fight on console. Hes really kind of useless other than certain first points of hybrid maps.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

Half of those are ults lmao. We're talking about an alternate fire here...

Also keep in mind he is the only character that in high level play has been able to wipe entire teams without ultimate. Like I said, watch the top McCrees and how they play. Saying he is the best of the sub-optimal goes against the entire meta of the game right now. Every single tournament team has at least one McCree on their team, that isn't a sub-optimal character.



Huh? Hes just as easy to fight on console. Hes really kind of useless other than certain first points of hybrid maps.

I don t really think so he is a pain sometimes

 

[Doombawkz]

Half of those are ults lmao. We're talking about an alternate fire here...

Also keep in mind he is the only character that in high level play has been able to wipe entire teams without ultimate. Like I said, watch the top McCrees and how they play. Saying he is the best of the sub-optimal goes against the entire meta of the game right now. Every single tournament team has at least one McCree on their team, that isn't a sub-optimal character.

Yeah, what he referred to was his ultimate while flanking. I said that can be said of most ultimates.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I don t really think so he is a pain sometimes

He's a pain if you don't work as a team and don't have the right character.

I play as Junkrat the most and never struggle with Torbjorns. In fact they are more often than not ways for me to boost my ult/get gold medals.

 

[Doombawkz]

I like Junkrat. Doing his double jump is really fun, especially on Kings Row when you can get to the enemy spawn's upper level and just rain hell down on them.

I can't say I main him per se. He is my best push/counterpush hero, but I enjoy symmetra more.

 

[ienjoywinning]

any mcree who knows what they're doing can decimate a D.va or Reinhardt. D. Va's shield only last a few seconds if that and he could just wait it out. As for Reinhardt he can just walk through the shield and flash or even throw it over top of the shield, this alone takes the shield out and exposes what ever he was blocking, even if mcree dies before killing a single person he already achieved his goal of disrupting the cover allowing teammates to take advantage. Winston/zarya cant do much against mcree as is. As for roadhog, yes he gives mcree some trouble but if mcree come from a flank its over, you've now lost your job as a tank/being a high priority target because you died AND given mcree/ his teammates their alts. and you better not let mcree flank with high noon

Zarya does fine vs Mccree. And she can be fed really quickly sometimes because of him. Say for example you see a teammate get stunned by mccree then you can instantly shield him and the mccree would obviously fth without noticing and it would feed you up to around 70 charge?. As for Zarya her self if she thinks mccree is going to throw a flashbang she could shield and make him waste his and he's fucked after that. Also I'm not sure about this but she can shield after she got stunned and he fth'd her midway and get like 3/2 charge.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

I don't see why everyone's arguing about mccree tier placement.

1. No one here is near pro level, or even have the experience to really speak on tiers.

2. It's been said by many pro players and even the developers themselves that mccree is stronger than intended and needs toned down.

3. Just because you main him and can't efficiently use his tool set completely doesn't mean the character sucks or is in a position to remain unchanged.

Good lord I thought it was just NRS titles but y'all make a tier list from everything lol

 

[myri]

Zenyatta is the best.

That is all.

 

[ienjoywinning]

I don't see why everyone's arguing about mccree tier placement.

1. No one here is near pro level, or even have the experience to really speak on tiers.

2. It's been said by many pro players and even the developers themselves that mccree is stronger than intended and needs toned down.

3. Just because you main him and can't efficiently use his tool set completely doesn't mean the character sucks or is in a position to remain unchanged.

Good lord I thought it was just NRS titles but y'all make a tier list from everything lol

I've asked some and none said he needs changing its just that he's badly designed.

 

[14K]

I dont think he is badly designed at all, his purpose is quite clear in the sense that he is there to burst damage. Mccree just needs his damage on FtH reduced a tiny bit or maybe even have a internal CD so you cant just "spray it" on tanks per say, and for the Competitive Scene to remove the multi hero picks, which many have done so already... in the last what 1 week and a few that some torneys stopped allowing for multi of the same hero picks we started to see the correct adjustment from high lvl teams in the form of Reaper, that i 100% agree is the correct pick... This game Gets its balance from each character having a specific purpose in a match and serving a specific role, if you can pick a more than 1 of the same that balance is thrown out the window immediately... In Quick Play its irrelevant regardless of what ppl say... But in Ranked, it simply cannot be allowed... So in short if you can only have 1 Mccree per team and his FtH is reduced a bit in damage everything will be just fine...

 

[jokey77]

... why is anyone playing any hero but genji anyway? genji is the coolest char I have ever played in any shooter and I want him as DLC for MK.

 

[14K]

... why is anyone playing any hero but genji anyway? genji is the coolest char I have ever played in any shooter and I want him as DLC for MK.

LOL his pretty cool, but not in his own regard, unfortunately he is a ripoff of GrayFox/Raiden concept is not original at all, Still in his defense he is pretty awesome no doubt, his referencees would be proud

 

[jokey77]

GrayFox/Raiden --> is this the Metal Gear Solid 1 char, right? I loved this character!
Besides Genji is a Ninja and I am a Ninja in real life, so this is why I feel this special connection, maybe...

 

[14K]

GrayFox/Raiden --> is this the Metal Gear Solid 1 char, right? I loved this character!
Besides Genji is a Ninja and I am a Ninja in real life, so this is why I feel this special connection, maybe...

Yeah Gray Fox, is the Cyborg Ninja from MGS1, and Raiden was the last Cyborg Ninja From MGS4 and MGS:Revengence. Genji makes justice to his refence material very well, they even have a "skins" in the game that pay Homage to Gray Fox and Raiden, in the Cinnabar Skin for Gray fox and Chrome for Raiden... Very cool