Opinion on the what the current tiers look like

[Rude]

You're so aware you started talking like I wanted an OH starter.

You're a clown. A joke. And a pretty sad one.

I can't see past his weaknesses? I just mentioned his strenghts several times in the last posts. And none of them outweight his weaknesses.

He doesn't have 50/50s.
He doesn't have a good wakeup option that leads to combos.
He doesn't have good anti-airs.

What exactly, makes this character good?
Pretty much all you can do with this character, others can do it too and better and have even more options than he does.

But keep throwing insults at me. Intelligence hasn't been seen in a single one of your posts, so in order to get my attention you resort to insults.

You =

Why is Liu's wake up game bad?
Dragonkick is fairly safe. A lot of the cast can't consistently punish it. Not to mention thatbthe whiff recovery isn't bad on it, either.

Doesn't Kang's d3 low profile? I believe it does. So if you read a jump, why don't you d3 to low profile it and then trip guard after the jump attack whiffs? This works great for cross ups.

On top of that, Kang has some good counterzoning. He actually wins the projectile trade vs a character like Cyber Kano, even though Kano's knives are faster. The damage trade is in Kang's favor, and it's not like fireballs are slow.

 

[Zephyrus]

Why is Liu's wake up game bad?
Dragonkick is fairly safe. A lot of the cast can't consistently punish it. Not to mention thatbthe whiff recovery isn't bad on it, either.

Doesn't Kang's d3 low profile? I believe it does. So if you read a jump, why don't you d3 to low profile it and then trip guard after the jump attack whiffs? This works great for cross ups.

On top of that, Kang has some good counterzoning. He actually wins the projectile trade vs a character like Cyber Kano, even though Kano's knives are faster. The damage trade is in Kang's favor, and it's not like fireballs are slow.

it isn't necessarily bad. ex Db+2 is safe. He just lacks those wakeups that the top characters have. The ones that open up combo opportunities.

Liu Kang is very safe on his pressure but he has trouble opening people up. Just look at yesterday's kombat network stream before the top 8. They were playing Liu Kang on stream and the Liu Kang player didn't win a single best of 5 set. Best he did was against a Jason and he still lost more matches.

I don't get it why people ignore that you have to be on point with Liu Kang and have VERY little payoff for it.

 

[Predannok]

Why is everyone placing Kotal so low, he has amazing footsies, some great safe specials, a lot of forward advancing moves and mixups, and does great damage.
What in the actual fuck...

Cuz all hes armor, safe specials and mixups are reserved for Wargod. F1b2 -11, b122 - 10, b32 leads to nothing and since this game doesnt have a hitbox checker Mids whiff alot on females and even some crouching males.

 

[Rude]

b1 is a mid but whiffs on crouching characters. his strings kinda suck as his most used ones are like -9 or -10. You can armor through his war god mixups (a big one kotal players are getting away with). the war god low sword is negative on hit. He is probably the easiest zoned character in the game. Sun god and blood god suck. just to name a few a few things....

You can armor through the mid sword attack but not the OH/Low sword attacks in War God. Or at least i haven't been able to.

You can also make those strings safe with MB Sun Disk which is +15 on block.

With Sun God, he can end those strings in grab and unless you backdash or armor, you eat grab damage.

Kotal also has, i want to say a 6 frame d4 and a fast d1? He can poke out of a lot of situations other characters can't and can use the advantage on hit to initiate pressure.

Plus, one of his b1 strings end overhead and the other ends low. It's a guess.

Kotal isn't bad at all.

 

[exflyingbooty]

Why are you all talking like liu kang doesn't have overheads or mixups

• 113/11 low fireball(run cancel)(this alone should discredit half of the people saying otherwise)
• b+4(i don't know his moves but that stupid fucking 4 hit kick combo scrubs love spamming) and b+2 which is i believe is his overhead fist

Those are off the top of my head but those alone are fine for mixups, he's an extremely solid character as it is

 

[RiBBz22]

I'm calling it. Shinnok is going to be the Biller Frost of this game.

He is going to beat Aquaman?

 

[Predannok]

You can armor through the mid sword attack but not the OH/Low sword attacks in War God. Or at least i haven't been able to.

You can also make those strings safe with MB Sun Disk which is +15 on block.

With Sun God, he can end those strings in grab and unless you backdash or armor, you eat grab damage.

Kotal also has, i want to say a 6 frame d4 and a fast d1? He can poke out of a lot of situations other characters can't and can use the advantage on hit to initiate pressure.

Plus, one of his b1 strings end overhead and the other ends low. It's a guess.

Kotal isn't bad at all.

Only 114 into Mb sundisc is a blockstring anything else can be armored or poked.

Sun god can end b1,b14,s1,d3/4 into Choke for tick throw and if any of this hits u eat a full combo ur gambling and hoping ur opponent blocks on top of the throw immunity of certain strings and moves.

b122 last hit is a Overhead
b14 second it is a low
anyone with matchup knowledge should be able to block this, there's no guessing there.

 

[RiBBz22]

I think we have to honestly. For example if we made a variation tier list Tempest Lao is at least 30 spots above Hat Trick Lao.

Every variation is like it's own character with it's own matchup chart, completely different then the other two variations of that character. But it would be super long and arduous to make a variation tier list lol. That's the only way it can be accurate tho. Maybe in about a year or two we'll have an almost decent variation tier list

I think it is a waste of time to do it that way. I think it would just be way more simple to just look at the sum of all parts across all 3 variations to see how they would deal with the 3 variations of another character. I mean when you think about it, no one is going to play a terribly bad variation MU anymore. So like in your example...say that hypothetically Hat Trick Lao loses to Raiden 3-7, but Tempest does well against any of Raiden's tool sets. In that scenario why does it even make sense to waste time debating a variation that really is a non-factor in the MU?

Really, the way things are currently evolving, almost every character has a perceived "best" variation with like maybe 20% of the cast with several viable ones. IMO it makes sense to look at MUs with the best variations first, and then tweak the numbers based on other tools from other variations that could factor into the MU.

Anyways, with all that said I am pretty much done with MU charts anyways because I already am Godlike at finding all of the top tier the first day a game comes out

 

[Matador Fiend]

You can armor through the mid sword attack but not the OH/Low sword attacks in War God. Or at least i haven't been able to.

You can also make those strings safe with MB Sun Disk which is +15 on block.

With Sun God, he can end those strings in grab and unless you backdash or armor, you eat grab damage.

Kotal also has, i want to say a 6 frame d4 and a fast d1? He can poke out of a lot of situations other characters can't and can use the advantage on hit to initiate pressure.

Plus, one of his b1 strings end overhead and the other ends low. It's a guess.

Kotal isn't bad at all.

B122 is -9. B14 leads to nothing if you arent playing wargod. If b14 connects and you go for choke it wiffs.

Sun god cant end strings in choke. It will miss. You can do b1 choke but it will wiff if b1 connects and if oppt releases block after blocked b1. B112 connected the choke will wiff on most of cast unless in corner. F1 choke cancel will wiff. Wiff choke is -14. I am pretty sure you can armor the b112 low sword mixup too, but i may be wrong.

Kotal has a 6f d1 and 6f d4. Hes not a bad character at all but i think hes a bit outclasses by most of the cast and it will become more obvious as the game goes on and people become more knowledgeable on kotals frame data and gaps. We still see ppl not punishing blocked enhanced overhead sword up close, so.

 

[Youphemism]

Shinnock being a B Tier is a clear lack of good Shinnock rep.
People need to wake up

Lol fuck no. Shinnok is more than just Impostor you know...

People are downplaying Impostor Shinnok way too hard in this thread.

45%+ chip damage with 3 bars.
unbreakable damage.
F22 has better range than any other string in the game.
16% grabs after his "low" damage does not equal low damage...
Great anti air, great anti cross over, great punishing tools, great anti zoner, strong rush down with MB hell sparks.
Mimicry puts you at +104 and is a standing reset that also grants a damage boost.

Dude...

45% chip.......for THREE bars, at least one of which he needs for decent damaging combos in the first place. There is no reason to waste 3 bars on that. And what blockstring is 45%?
Unbreakable damage, wow. There's no other characters with that...
F22 is pretty slow, and unsafe, and Jason's B122 probably advances more than that.
16% completely techable and not guaranteed grabs. If it's take 16% over another 30+% I'll take the throw and be left at neutral again. If anything the minimum you're guaranteed after Mimicry is 2% (or 3%, not sure if the buff affects that).
Great anti-air in a game where noone is going to jump because they're mostly floaty jumps.
A bunch of characters have great anti-crossover
What? Great punishing tools? Stop reaching at straws man...
Great anti-zoner? Really? When you can be NJP'd out of his 27 frame teleport and hell sparks don't reach full screen?
"Strong rushdown" is a bit of an overstatement too, you're using a bar for MB Hell Sparks to either get an unsafe low (well, safe if you want to waste another bar) or a backdashable overhead.
Mimicry is good though.

I mean don't get me wrong Impostor Shinnok is his best variation but it's not exactly a top 10 variation. It is being upplayed because out of all the Impostor Shinnoks there are not one has made top 16, there's a reason for that.

 

[Schuyler]

I think ferra torr should b higher personally but this is a good early tier list. I play d'vorah and in my opinion raided is better than her Johnny cage is a little too high for my taste like he's higher than sub and ermac and he has no lows all the tires are right I'll just play with the orders with them within those tries

 

[Rude]

Only 114 into Mb sundisc is a blockstring anything else can be armored or poked.

Sun god can end b1,b14,s1,d3/4 into Choke for tick throw and if any of this hits u eat a full combo ur gambling and hoping ur opponent blocks on top of the throw immunity of certain strings and moves.

b122 last hit is a Overhead
b14 second it is a low
anyone with matchup knowledge should be able to block this, there's no guessing there.

B122 is -9. B14 leads to nothing if you arent playing wargod. If b14 connects and you go for choke it wiffs.

Sun god cant end strings in choke. It will miss. You can do b1 choke but it will wiff if b1 connects and if oppt releases block after blocked b1. B112 connected the choke will wiff on most of cast unless in corner. F1 choke cancel will wiff. Wiff choke is -14. I am pretty sure you can armor the b112 low sword mixup too, but i may be wrong.

Kotal has a 6f d1 and 6f d4. Hes not a bad character at all but i think hes a bit outclasses by most of the cast and it will become more obvious as the game goes on and people become more knowledgeable on kotals frame data and gaps. We still see ppl not punishing blocked enhanced overhead sword up close, so.

Some of this i did not know. Thank you for that. Really.

 

[Shamwow0w0w]

Lol fuck no. Shinnok is more than just Impostor you know...

Dude...

45% chip.......for THREE bars, at least one of which he needs for decent damaging combos in the first place. There is no reason to waste 3 bars on that. And what blockstring is 45%?
Unbreakable damage, wow. There's no other characters with that...
F22 is pretty slow, and unsafe, and Jason's B122 probably advances more than that.
16% completely techable and not guaranteed grabs. If it's take 16% over another 30+% I'll take the throw and be left at neutral again. If anything the minimum you're guaranteed after Mimicry is 2% (or 3%, not sure if the buff affects that).
Great anti-air in a game where noone is going to jump because they're mostly floaty jumps.
A bunch of characters have great anti-crossover
What? Great punishing tools? Stop reaching at straws man...
Great anti-zoner? Really? When you can be NJP'd out of his 27 frame teleport and hell sparks don't reach full screen?
"Strong rushdown" is a bit of an overstatement too, you're using a bar for MB Hell Sparks to either get an unsafe low (well, safe if you want to waste another bar) or a backdashable overhead.
Mimicry is good though.

I mean don't get me wrong Impostor Shinnok is his best variation but it's not exactly a top 10 variation. It is being upplayed because out of all the Impostor Shinnoks there are not one has made top 16, there's a reason for that.

* jip, 321, EX HS, F224, EX HS, F224, EX HS, F224, EX HS = 45,26% + a follow up, pure chip damage, Yes they can armor out at certain points but you can bait the armor and punish as well so that's a guessing game. F2 is 15 frame start up so that's not slow. most projectiles are 20+ frame start up with 20+ frames of recovery which means you can react with teleport and be safe. F4/F2 = great punishing tools. Being able to end your pressure at +24 is great pressure imo when your building back 1/3 of a bar in the process and dealing high chip damage. Grabs are legit 50/50's in this game. ending a bnb with a throw that you said you'd rather take then eat another combo means shinnok is doing 50% per bar spent (35% + 16%) so where is the low damage?

 

[Zephyrus]

Why are you all talking like liu kang doesn't have overheads or mixups

• 113/11 low fireball(run cancel)(this alone should discredit half of the people saying otherwise)
• b+4(i don't know his moves but that stupid fucking 4 hit kick combo scrubs love spamming) and b+2 which is i believe is his overhead fist

Those are off the top of my head but those alone are fine for mixups, he's an extremely solid character as it is

you can duck the 11 string and punish it. Not an effective tool for mixups. That's why I want his 11 to hit mid and not high as it does now.

B+2 is an OH that pushes the opponent away. It deals around 7% and knocks people down. Only good in the corner.

Liu is a solid character but whoever denies that he's one of the worst in the game is fooling themselves. This character won't ever win a major in the state he is now.

 

[KNX]

I swear Whitebl4ck almost beat F0xy yesterday using Liu Kang. He didn't appear that bad to me, and some of the matches he played beforehand he won in dominating fashion.

Is this just a case of "oh he has no Overhead and Low starter therefore he is bad"?

 

[Vandy]

Good thread @GGA pimpimjim Can you update the OP with your write ups and then finish every character? If you have time of course =)


It looks like Kitana needs to pull a Stella and get her groove back.

 

[Johnny2d]

Go play @Johnny2d then you'll see it

Brood Mother is bad tho, no one should play as her or learn the matchup. Also, please buff.

 

[MKF30]

Scorp(inferno) is higher/ top tier, his reset is wayy to easy and powerful a tool. I mean you guess wrong once or twice in one round and you're fucked lol. He's really just mid/average in the other two variations

 

[BloodyNights]

Scorp(inferno) is higher/ top tier, his reset is wayy to easy and powerful a tool.

Block low afterwards, react to the 25 frame overhead. Pretty much just eliminated his vortex options other than Throw. Inferno is the balanced variation. Hellfire is the top tier variation due to crazy chip, and rush down pressure. Combined with an unblockable projectile, and the crazy hitbox of flame aura.

 

[Sultani]

Looks pretty good. I'd put KL a little higher and also have Liu Kang in A.

 

[Juggs]

Shinnock being a B Tier is a clear lack of good Shinnock rep.
People need to wake up

Well you clearly don't main him.

 

[MKF30]

Block low afterwards, react to the 25 frame overhead. Pretty much just eliminated his vortex options other than Throw. Inferno is the balanced variation. Hellfire is the top tier variation due to crazy chip, and rush down pressure. Combined with an unblockable projectile, and the crazy hitbox of flame aura.

Yes I've been practicing a bit of late, characters with fast pokes can poke him out of the F4 but his F3 is faster. Your second point I respectfully disagree, Inferno is much better than Hellfire and Nin, you can poke him out of his self flame sure you take some damage but it's far easier to deal with than inferno, plus remember if you're far you have to deal with his zoning(which he lacks in the other two variations) with the demons, you block wrong(high or low) you'll get hit with sky demons or ground ones. Besides, online HF is crap, the latency won't allow him to do rushdown and do block cancels. Especially if it's a laggier connection.


I'm sure offline HF is a lot more viable, but online it's not that great, meanwhile inferno every scorp player uses the reset vortex online or offline.

 

[juicepouch]

Yes I've been practicing a bit of late, characters with fast pokes can poke him out of the F4 but his F3 is faster. Inferno is much better than Hellfire, you can poke him out of his self flame sure you take some damage but it's far easier to deal with than inferno, plus remember if you're far you have to deal with his zoning(which he lacks in the other two variations) with the demons, you block wrong(high or low) you'll get hit with sky demons or ground ones.

Not everyone rushes down well with Hellfire though, meanwhile inferno every scorp player uses the reset vortex.

Inferno's zoning is a bill of goods unless you're playing laggy online infernos

 

[MKF30]

Inferno's zoning is a bill of goods unless you're playing laggy online infernos

It is indeed good for zoning(Inferno), but that I knew for a while. Slips filled me in a month ago when I asked him about Scorpion's better variations even he said Inferno is his best variation overall, cause you can zone, get big damage and the reset. His HF and Nin aren't tough to deal with at all IMO. This topic is all opinions afterall.

I miss MK 9 Scorpion, maybe I'm just spoiled with having swords combined with hellfire lol

 

[BloodyNights]

It is indeed good for zoning(Inferno), but that I knew for a while. Slips filled me in a month ago when I asked him about Scorpion's better variations even he said Inferno is his best variation overall, cause you can zone, get big damage and the reset. His HF and Nin aren't tough to deal with at all IMO. This topic is all opinions afterall.

I miss MK 9 Scorpion, maybe I'm just spoiled with having swords combined with hellfire lol

Inferno Scorpion's zoning is some of the easiest to block in the game, to punish on reaction during it's start up, and has terrible recovery time. Online has nothing to do with balance. So Hellfire needing higher execution which makes his cancels useless online is an incredibly moot point. Thing is Hellfire makes all of his unsafe risky tactics super safe. I'm pretty sure you are talking about his B3 instead of F4, which Is why I said to block low, as you can react to the F4.

And when did Slips say that Inferno was better than Hellfire? I doubt it was any time recently. Because in the beginning of the games life people did think inferno was the best. But that switched as more people found out how good Hellfire actually was.