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Match-up Discussion Official Deathstroke Match-up Chart v3

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
Administrator
Hey can any1 help me with punishing MMH teleport on block? I don't have MMH but when I played @Red Reaper sometimes I could punish it and sometimes I couldn't. He told me that it depends on when you block it, like if you block it late then he'll be closer to you or something?
yea but sometimes it'll say reversal and it still won't punish. I think it depends on when you block it. Like if ur already walking back and block then u won't be able to punish it. idk I didn't buy MMH so I can't practice it.
Yeah. It's because it lands deeper. Just like how Deep Jump Kicks are more plus in MK..

If you hold back long enough, you won't be able punish it because you're moving away from him as he is trying to hit you. So he hits the lower body rather than the upper body. I played the match recently and it's not hard if you just block on reaction to the teleport. Then again, I did this offline so IDK, it's up to you.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
yea but sometimes it'll say reversal and it still won't punish. I think it depends on when you block it. Like if ur already walking back and block then u won't be able to punish it. idk I didn't buy MMH so I can't practice it.
I'm able to punish it 100% when I get the 'Reversal' notification. Even if I'm already walking back.
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
i forgot wat ds safe jump in's were.....dammit x.x

anyone care to remind what they all were?
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
I don't think you understand what a safe jump is.. This particular setup negates anti airs so you can "Safe jump" onto your opponent and apply pressure.
well i coulda swore someone said that u can setup a jump in and do a crossup and if it hits you get a combo, and if they wake up u can block in time, or am i just remembering things wrong.
 
well i coulda swore someone said that u can setup a jump in and do a crossup and if it hits you get a combo, and if they wake up u can block in time, or am i just remembering things wrong.
I don't think that particular set up exists. If that did exist then it would be amazing.
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
I don't think that particular set up exists. If that did exist then it would be amazing.
or maybe not a combo, but ur at advantage, but if they wake up u can block in time, like i said im not quite sure i remember correctly i'll have to recheck the DS forums.
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
I don't think you understand what a safe jump is.. This particular setup negates anti airs so you can "Safe jump" onto your opponent and apply pressure.
and by anti airs u mean normal anti airs like d2, not anti air type wakeups am i right?
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Good options post blocked slide. Excellent jump back game. I don't see why it wouldn't be.
Yeah I have been actually using DS a little bit lately (I co-mained him to start the game with Frost before I slid Batgirl in) and I think it is one of those really close matches that could tip a little toward Frost, but probably even. He does have great post slide options. D1 into sword spin is safe and it can be hit-confirmed to knock her back full screen for one bar. J3 being so godlike makes DS's air game tough to beat. Jump back 3's used to stuff naked slide attempts are tougher to trip guard than a lot of other jump attacks.

Low gunshot can be reversed with iceberg from 3/4 screen, so DS has to be careful as KF approaches just outside of F3 range because MB iceberg is a pretty big punish from that distance. KF's need to make sure they have the timing correct on this punish because it affects the MU quite a bit since outside of damage and a setup it at least leads to a quick approach. Slide punishes quick shot from long range... so basically DS just has to be a lot more careful with his gunshots in this MU than a lot of other ones IMO. DS's d1 being a low evens the gap in the MU some for sure.

Thoughts? @GGA Slips @RedRaptor10 @KingHippo @Rampage254
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
I think it's too easy to force a stalemate to favor either character. Frost has zero options until she gets until slide range, and that's really only one option then she has to worry about back jumping which she has to stop preemptively and not on reaction. DS technically can't gun, but at 3-4 to half screen I'd take the risk; it's a tight punish and one that won't lead to a lot of damage unless they're about midscreen. Plus I get to punish if she fucks it up? Awesome.

To me, Frost's strength comes down to either dominance in mid range due to slide or the post slide guessing game, both of which DS just does very well and forces this neutral match. Which I would say DS wins but I will acknowledge the punishing of shots (TBH if she couldn't, this would be an easy 6-4).

My final statement is even.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
I think it's too easy to force a stalemate to favor either character. Frost has zero options until she gets until slide range, and that's really only one option then she has to worry about back jumping which she has to stop preemptively and not on reaction. DS technically can't gun, but at 3-4 to half screen I'd take the risk; it's a tight punish and one that won't lead to a lot of damage unless they're about midscreen. Plus I get to punish if she fucks it up? Awesome.

To me, Frost's strength comes down to either dominance in mid range due to slide or the post slide guessing game, both of which DS just does very well and forces this neutral match. Which I would say DS wins but I will acknowledge the punishing of shots (TBH if she couldn't, this would be an easy 6-4).

My final statement is even.
The problem with taking the risk and gunning at 3/4 screen is that more often than not the Frost player should be reading low guns which can be punished with an air dash combo. If she reads wrong and gets hit by quick shot that isn't huge damage-wise, and knowing the DS player is willing to risk QS that close can open up more slides, but at the same time opens the risk of the jump B3.

I agree that on paper it is probably 5-5. Depending on how punishes and 50-50s go for KF, the MU can be made to feel a bit easier..but that doesn't mean things aren't even. Both characters have good tools to handle each other and that's really all you can ask for in a fair MU.
 
Ok, so the match up chart says that DS & BG are even, but I've been finding myself getting blown up and bodied by BG A LOT especially with her mix ups and that vortex of hers... What's a good strategy as DS player to combat her mix ups teleports etc?
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
In my experience, Batgirl is more so a test of what you know vs what you can deal with. Obviously, backdashing the cartwheel mixup on block is a must, as this will probably be her primary mid ranged tool. Once you can do that, then she'll probably start coming in with her dash > dash shoryu, which now it's time to start stopping her dash with down 2. At this point, now the game will probably revolve around her going for bolas and jumping trying to bait some shots. Bolas are probably best dealt with jumping, although she can delay the bola for a bit, but your jump is so quick that I don't think the delay can actually hit you on the way down.

Another fun thing is that if you delay a standing 3 after your strings and attacks that are severely positive (Foward 3 and foward 2,3 usually), she actually will be hit if she backdashes or jumps, so you can try and condition her to sit still for your 50/50's.

Lastly, another thing to press her on is commiting to doing her extremely unsafe wakeups, Shoryuken and Teleport. You can actually stuff the cartwheel with a well timed meaty, and there are certain setups that end in a crossup forward 3 that will avoid the shoryu and teleport while stuffing cartwheel. Of course this again comes down to delaying wakeups and other mindgames, but scaring her on a knockdown into risking it all is better than leting her run cartwheel on you for days.

I think that Batgirl is very good, but with your very good anti air and low shots, you really force her to take risks in the neutral game to try and score damage. Cartwheel is a really good midrange option, but luckily the mixup can be backdashed, which leaves you with an option against it. To me this sounds like an even matchup.