Match-up Discussion Official Deathstroke Match-up Chart v3

[ryublaze]

I would love to see reasoning behind saying that DS vs MMH is even. I play only MMH and i really don't see how this can be even.

@KingHippo @GGA Slips @RedRaptor10

I play vs DS players all the time, maybe not as good as KingHippo or Slips but still i don't see any problem with this MU for MMH. I saw Hippo vs Dink (DS vs MMH) at SCR and for me it just showed how you shouldn't play this MU as MMH.

DS can't zone MMH, OHTP shutdowns any of that so he has to get in. Which is pretty rough since i setup orbs all the time and even if he's close i just go trait and enjoy myself. He's D2 is great which prevents me from jumping in but not really a problem im ok with semi zoning + punishing hes attempts to get in (2 hit MB B3 is great for that and teleport even normal destroys his J3 attempts).

Anyway would love to discuss this with some good DS player.

PS. M2Fool should be banned from this thread.

idk can't really comment much on that MU. I personally don't think it's that bad. All I know is that he can punish blocked teleport with sword flip but that might be hard to do, and his f3 corner stuff is really good against MMH imo.

making matchup charts is stupid and pointless ... just post setups and tech...

the character forums are dead yo I don't think there's much left to find and whenever I do post something no1 responds. Now that DS has placed top 8 post patch and people are starting to understand him I'd like to know how he does vs. the cast now compared to almost a year ago.

 

[ryublaze]

@RedRaptor10 vs scorpion is not a even mu IMO.

scorpion out damages ds
ds cant punish mb telepunch on block, has to jump back to catch with j3 which leads himself open to normal tele/spear
just frame punish on b2, generally ds has weak punish answers in the mu
zoning and jump in game limited.
scorpion has just as strong corner game and can get out of the corner alot easier than ds can.

ds can compete with scorpion very well but i see atm how its even

u might want to discuss with Hippo or Slips since he plays both chars

 

[Yoaks]

that hurts man and fuck doomsday

Lobo does hurt lol. And I agree on the fuck Doomsday part.

 

[Srryimwhte]

i think lobo is 5-5 and doomsday just has a easy time holding ds in place after all the patches

 

[Qwark28]

On Harley, Id say that DS wins pretty decisively. His d2 is a great anti air vs her and she also has a very hard time zoning against him. Low guns are amazing in this MU since it goes under her guns, which it seems like a lot of characters have a hard time dealing with. Also, you can pop her out of the air with your own air guns. Sure she outdamages you and has a slightly better corner game, but i feel like DS overall has better footsie tools with way more plus frames and can win air to air exchanges with j1. I'd say its probably 6-4, winnable for harley but difficult.

Shazam I don't think is as free as people think it is, but Shazam is forced to play your game. Shazam will almost ALWAYS win the air to air exchange with his j2 and has an amazing backdash which is really hard to deal with post F3. Remember that his b2 and b23 are punishable by 132 and his psycho crusher is punishable as well but what you get depends on range. I'm not 100% sure but i think even at max distance you can at least shoot him (@ISF_AWG_Indecisive confirm or deny?). Also Shazam's teleport doesn't let you run your normal post-knockdown options and even if you read it, its hard to punish with j3 since the recovery is very small. However, Shazam is forced to take a good amount of chip on his way in and can be outfootsied to an extent. the main thing you have to watch out for is b23 which gives zero fucks about air normals and will beat out whatever you try to throw out (i swear it has upper body invuln or some bullshit but i know that NRS likes to make invuln exclusive to wakeup -_-). Its hard for me to put numbers on it but a lot of people say its 7-3, i personally think its 6-4. It's just Shazam players like to get reckless which DS murders you for.

Grundy is pretty easy to deal with because he is forced to get in and you can react to him lifting his foot up for swamp hands and regular standing guns with beat out his armor since he has only one hit. b1u2 and f3 will go straight through walking corpse, however he can use heat knuckle (whatever the fuck the air grab is called, im going with what its called in guilty gear lol) to blow it up and pretty much all your jump ins. For some reason Grundy players don't like to use chip trait which i think is essential in this matchup because at that point he can just hit you once, get the life lead and sit there and force you to come in. Up until he gets chip trait, you can harass the fuck out of him with guns. Also, Grundy is very limited after he blocks a f3. His backdash will get caught by a j3, so if you scout that, you get good dammy and he has to respect the post f3 mixup a lot more than most characters do that can backdash out of it and force you to chase them down and go for a mixup if you read backdash, but if they read you chasing a backdash they can pop you out of it. I'd say this is somewhere between 7-3 and 6-4, closer to the 6-4 side. However, if the Grundy player neglects to use chip trait, it is definitely 7-3.

I personally cannot comment on Lobo due to a lack of MU experience :/. @GGA Fill Pops hopefully we can get some games in at FR so i can figure that shit.



One of the only times i played against Jailhouse's Cyborg, he traded grounded fireballs with me and was doing more damage than me, so i was forced to go in. that's all i can really comment on this match. @Relaxedstate whats the next event you're going to be at so i can grind out some cyborg nonsense?

You can jump the grounded ones on reaction.

 

[Doombawkz]

I will say this:

In the Bane MU, if he ever goes on level 3 cooldown, pop your trait (if you can safely) and hit him with MB assult rifle. In level 3 debuff, he isn't going to be able to avoid all of it.

 

[Crathen]

How does he beat Cyborg , Quinn , Lobo , Shazam and Grundy?

Cyborg is just way too much a lifelead character , guns trade with grounded nova blast , lgs ( blocked ) into quickfire trades with a reversal nova blast , lgs under instant air nova blasts to avoid the chip and he has to block it , you can jump grounded nova blast easily from 3/4 to fullscreen and quickfire trade a followup grounded nova blast. The moment where you have a 20% lifelead on Cyborg is when this MU becomes way harder for Cyborg , he can't grapple at all as he'll get punished with guns or AA with d2 / SF. He has only a 1 hitting wakeup attack that it's not hard to cross up and punish , it's also unsafe on block. Deathstroke pressure and 50/50 get him more damage upclose than anything Cyborg has. Advantage for DS.

Harley is forced to get in vs DS and he can contain her very well , her j2 is good enough to be hard to AA since she also has a low jump arc and can get her in , lgs bypass her grounded gunshot and it's faster than cupcakes , upclose it's a tossup , they both have good frametraps but DS has a faster 50/50 and even if blocked they create a good amount of pushback , she doesn't have a great forward dash so she'll be prone to make reads and try jumping over DS zoning attempt to close the gap or punish with air guns , DS oki game is slightly better than hers. Slight advantage DS.

Lobo i don't know as much as i'd want to but i cannot see how Lobo wins this MU atm , just gonna play it safe and say it's even.

Shazam has been discussed in the past , DS controls his movement really well and gets more mixups attempt than him , he also punishes torpedo at all distances with flip or 132 , slight advantage DS.

Grundy is even , all depends on who gets started first , guns are good to keep him in check from moving in recklessly without trying a WCC wich can be baited and either punished or forces him to block afterwards they also beat MB swamp hands and that is very nice , b1u2 is a lifesaver after DS frametraps as it's throw invulnerable to WCC , don't use meter on gunshots other than punishes , MB f3 / b3 ( or neutral / forward jump if you want to make a read ) his mixup strings and punish him for getting greedy , it's a patience match and always ends up on who can play it better at 1-2 character distances. Grundy can go ham when he gets a knockdown cancelling strings into WCC to punish DS wakeups or just go for a grab / low / OH mixup , those situations you have to guess. Grundy damage and momentum is what keeps this even , as DS you have to keep him out and put him into frametraps to get your offense started and try to blow up his mixups when he gets started. Even MU imo.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Cyborg is just way too much a lifelead character , guns trade with grounded nova blast , lgs ( blocked ) into quickfire trades with a reversal nova blast , lgs under instant air nova blasts to avoid the chip and he has to block it , you can jump grounded nova blast easily from 3/4 to fullscreen and quickfire trade a followup grounded nova blast. The moment where you have a 20% lifelead on Cyborg is when this MU becomes way harder for Cyborg , he can't grapple at all as he'll get punished with guns or AA with d2 / SF. He has only a 1 hitting wakeup attack that it's not hard to cross up and punish , it's also unsafe on block. Deathstroke pressure and 50/50 get him more damage upclose than anything Cyborg has. Advantage for DS.

Harley is forced to get in vs DS and he can contain her very well , her j2 is good enough to be hard to AA since she also has a low jump arc and can get her in , lgs bypass her grounded gunshot and it's faster than cupcakes , upclose it's a tossup , they both have good frametraps but DS has a faster 50/50 and even if blocked they create a good amount of pushback , she doesn't have a great forward dash so she'll be prone to make reads and try jumping over DS zoning attempt to close the gap or punish with air guns , DS oki game is slightly better than hers. Slight advantage DS.

Lobo i don't know as much as i'd want to but i cannot see how Lobo wins this MU atm , just gonna play it safe and say it's even.

Shazam has been discussed in the past , DS controls his movement really well and gets more mixups attempt than him , he also punishes torpedo at all distances with flip or 132 , slight advantage DS.

Grundy is even , all depends on who gets started first , guns are good to keep him in check from moving in recklessly without trying a WCC wich can be baited and either punished or forces him to block afterwards they also beat MB swamp hands and that is very nice , b1u2 is a lifesaver after DS frametraps as it's throw invulnerable to WCC , don't use meter on gunshots other than punishes , MB f3 / b3 ( or neutral / forward jump if you want to make a read ) his mixup strings and punish him for getting greedy , it's a patience match and always ends up on who can play it better at 1-2 character distances. Grundy can go ham when he gets a knockdown cancelling strings into WCC to punish DS wakeups or just go for a grab / low / OH mixup , those situations you have to guess. Grundy damage and momentum is what keeps this even , as DS you have to keep him out and put him into frametraps to get your offense started and try to blow up his mixups when he gets started. Even MU imo.

I 98% agree. I still believe the Cyborg is even. 2B2 can stop DS from starting his mix-ups because of its speed and range, it also is able to keep DS out that way. But once the Cyborg player is conditioned and the mind-games are in play, things could go really well for DS.

 

[Slips]

@GGA Slips @Crathen @KingHippo

I would appreciate if you guys answered my initial question on page 1.

Harley: I can see DS winning based on the fact she has to come to him and opening people up isn't one of her strong suits. We've seen Deg's Harley lose to a decent DS player in tournament (can't remember his name off-hand) but I don't play against good Harley's so who knows maybe it's even.

Cyborg: This match is heavily based on who has the life lead. If DS gets a significant life lead he can keep up with Cyborg zoning enough then Cyborg has to come to him. But if the mach is close or Cyborg is winning then he ultimately outzones DS so he then has to weed his way through nova blasts to win which is super annoying. This mu is even.

Shazam: DS probably wins. DS has guns going for him to get some bs damage and can punish Shazam psycho crusher at any range. DS AA is pretty well intact for this mu as well. Silver lining is that Shazam avoids DS momentum with wakeup tele...but thats Shazam vs. everyone really and most of the time its not enough anyway.

Grundy: Probably even but I've never played a super top Grundy. I'd take Hippo's word on this whatever he thinks it is.

 

[Slips]

I would love to see reasoning behind saying that DS vs MMH is even. I play only MMH and i really don't see how this can be even.

@KingHippo @GGA Slips @RedRaptor10

I play vs DS players all the time, maybe not as good as KingHippo or Slips but still i don't see any problem with this MU for MMH. I saw Hippo vs Dink (DS vs MMH) at SCR and for me it just showed how you shouldn't play this MU as MMH.

DS can't zone MMH, OHTP shutdowns any of that so he has to get in. Which is pretty rough since i setup orbs all the time and even if he's close i just go trait and enjoy myself. He's D2 is great which prevents me from jumping in but not really a problem im ok with semi zoning + punishing hes attempts to get in (2 hit MB B3 is great for that and teleport even normal destroys his J3 attempts).

Anyway would love to discuss this with some good DS player.

PS. M2Fool should be banned from this thread.

Martian might be an even matchup. Like Raptor said, DS can punish ohtp into a knockdown. DS also can jump over all of mmh wakeups and punish and mb f3 through them all as well so mmh can't just roulette his way to damage when he gets knocked down like he can against most of the cast. mmh still has trait and massive damage though. Could be 4-6, but DS definitely has the tools to where he could go even with him. Time will tell.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Martian might be an even matchup. Like Raptor said, DS can punish ohtp into a knockdown. DS also can jump over all of mmh wakeups and punish and mb f3 through them all so mmh can't just roulette his way to damage when he gets knocked down like he can against most of the cast. mmh still has trait and massive damage though. Could be 4-6, but DS definitely has the tools to where he could go even with him. Time will tell.

you can jump over the grounded teleport?

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

I can actually see MMH v DS as even. MMH always look broke when you don't know his shit. But DS having an answer to Teleport is already a BIG BIG plus. And having an answer to his wake-ups also is a big plus.

But that's if DS can get in. MMH can zone DS out and getting in is tough.

EDIT: Shit I forgot I said I wasn't going to talk MU anymore.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

you can jump over the grounded teleport?

He probably means J3?

 

[Slips]

you can jump over the grounded teleport?

Not if he does the normal one that is true I forgot about that. The ohtp DS can land and punish at least. If DS can limit mmh to doing full combo punishable tele without meter that can also be stuffed without I'd say thats a victory for DS.

 

[KingHippo]

For Martian, I think that ending combos in setups that let you j1 crossup are very strong since they will beat out Psionic Push and then dialing in 1 as you land will beat out teleport startup. Very strong ender against him.

The other thing is that I think Martian zoning is somewhat of a bill. It's decent, but DS can punish pillars on block and probably react with QF before the meteor strike can come out. The orbs are pretty good, but more of a stall tactic than a super effective zoning tool, IMO. His air dash shenanigans are good, but DS has anti air of the gods so the ones that will be working are instant air dash crossups and that's about it.

22 can be a pain midscreen when he has trait, but it's not leading to much. Apparently if he does 22 xx MB orb you can backdash (@GGA Slips confirm?) and if he does 223 he's - and then 22b3 is mb3 interrupt-able, as well as d1 interrupt-able.

Not being able to throw out guns too much does suck, and he can be hard to anti-air if he's doing max range trait J3, but I still don't see why we have to shit ourselves in fear if 22 is blocked. Could be 4-6 in the future, maybe I'm not playing the right MMH, but that's how I see it, at any rate.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Not if he does the normal one that is true I forgot about that. The ohtp DS can land and punish at least. If DS can limit mmh to doing full combo punishable tele without meter that can also be stuffed without I'd say thats a victory for DS.

i posted a video before showing that if you can reliably react to the startup of his teleports and sword flip, regardless of which version he does, DS would win the exchange. If he does overhead tele, the flip either hit mmh on his way down or would cause the tele to whiff which gives you a d2 punish. if he does the grounded tele the sword flip will hit mmh on his way up and will cause that kind of knockdown where you're right on top of him.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

For Martian, I think that ending combos in setups that let you j1 crossup are very strong since they will beat out Psionic Push and then dialing in 1 as you land will beat out teleport startup. Very strong ender against him.

The other thing is that I think Martian zoning is somewhat of a bill. It's decent, but DS can punish pillars on block and probably react with QF before the meteor strike can come out. The orbs are pretty good, but more of a stall tactic than a super effective zoning tool, IMO. His air dash shenanigans are good, but DS has anti air of the gods so the ones that will be working are instant air dash crossups and that's about it.

22 can be a pain midscreen when he has trait, but it's not leading to much. Apparently if he does 22 xx MB orb you can backdash (@GGA Slips confirm?) and if he does 223 he's - and then 22b3 is mb3 interrupt-able, as well as d1 interrupt-able.

Not being able to throw out guns too much does suck, and he can be hard to anti-air if he's doing max range trait J3, but I still don't see why we have to shit ourselves in fear if 22 is blocked. Could be 4-6 in the future, maybe I'm not playing the right MMH, but that's how I see it, at any rate.

personally i wouldnt really fuck with manhunter with trait and would block most of his shit. unless he decides to just teleport for the hell of it then ill sword flip his ass. also 22b3 is also interuptable by 132 i believe.

 

[Immortal]

Martian might be an even matchup. Like Raptor said, DS can punish ohtp into a knockdown. DS also can jump over all of mmh wakeups and punish and mb f3 through them all as well so mmh can't just roulette his way to damage when he gets knocked down like he can against most of the cast. mmh still has trait and massive damage though. Could be 4-6, but DS definitely has the tools to where he could go even with him. Time will tell.

I personally never wake up against DS, just block all shit coming my way, go trait, orb (especially in the corner) and he has to guess how im gonna follow up my 2,2 or even better 1,1.

For Martian, I think that ending combos in setups that let you j1 crossup are very strong since they will beat out Psionic Push and then dialing in 1 as you land will beat out teleport startup. Very strong ender against him.

The other thing is that I think Martian zoning is somewhat of a bill. It's decent, but DS can punish pillars on block and probably react with QF before the meteor strike can come out. The orbs are pretty good, but more of a stall tactic than a super effective zoning tool, IMO. His air dash shenanigans are good, but DS has anti air of the gods so the ones that will be working are instant air dash crossups and that's about it.

22 can be a pain midscreen when he has trait, but it's not leading to much. Apparently if he does 22 xx MB orb you can backdash (@GGA Slips confirm?) and if he does 223 he's - and then 22b3 is mb3 interrupt-able, as well as d1 interrupt-able.

Not being able to throw out guns too much does suck, and he can be hard to anti-air if he's doing max range trait J3, but I still don't see why we have to shit ourselves in fear if 22 is blocked. Could be 4-6 in the future, maybe I'm not playing the right MMH, but that's how I see it, at any rate.

I really don't know why any decent MMH player would want to wake up against DS, we all know he gonna beat it so i just block the usual DS follow up after knockdown. As for zoning its really hard to react with QF before meteor strike comes out i would argue that in tournament environment almost impossible. Orbs are only for stall obviously, so he cant get in when my trait is in cooldown. 223 is very risky and i would not do it, depending on range i can go 2,2,mb grab into full combo or even better 1,1,2 (if i think he will block low) and start orbs / zoning or 1,1, mb grab.

Also i really don't see why MMH would OHTP in this MU beside punishing guns on read. Its obvious DS players are waiting for it, no point in actually doing it (the same with wake ups as i wrote above). Anyway i see this MU as 6-4 in MMH favor, thou like Slips said - time will tell.

Thanks Hippo and Slips for detailed answer.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Grundy: Probably even but I've never played a super top Grundy. I'd take Hippo's word on this whatever he thinks it is.

You will.....

...I don't know what I'm doing. I'm sorry.


-Team Rocket's blasting off agaiiiiiiinnnnnnn

 

[KingHippo]

I personally never wake up against DS, just block all shit coming my way, go trait, orb (especially in the corner) and he has to guess how im gonna follow up my 2,2 or even better 1,1.



I really don't know why any decent MMH player would want to wake up against DS, we all know he gonna beat it so i just block the usual DS follow up after knockdown. As for zoning its really hard to react with QF before meteor strike comes out i would argue that in tournament environment almost impossible. Orbs are only for stall obviously, so he cant get in when my trait is in cooldown. 223 is very risky and i would not do it, depending on range i can go 2,2,mb grab into full combo or even better 1,1,2 (if i think he will block low) and start orbs / zoning or 1,1, mb grab.

Also i really don't see why MMH would OHTP in this MU beside punishing guns on read. Its obvious DS players are waiting for it, no point in actually doing it (the same with wake ups as i wrote above). Anyway i see this MU as 6-4 in MMH favor, thou like Slips said - time will tell.

Thanks Hippo and Slips for detailed answer.

So you resign yourself on wakeup to DS potent, safe 50/50, and don't have a midscreen presence besides orbs and airdash in without trait, and you also don't tele unless on a read. And concede to going for the risky 50/50 off of strings. Do you see where I could see it being 5/5, given those options?

You're welcome btw, it's quite refreshing actually to not have our MU discussion lorded by shitheads.

 

[Immortal]

So you resign yourself on wakeup to DS potent, safe 50/50, and don't have a midscreen presence besides orbs and airdash in without trait, and you also don't tele unless on a read. And concede to going for the risky 50/50 off of strings. Do you see where I could see it being 5/5, given those options?

Yes that's true i can certainly understand your point of view on that MU.

Thou it's not that bad as it sounds, orbs obviously are for stall but there is no way you gonna avoid them all and i will combo from any that hits you. Also every 7 seconds i will go trait and then i obviously want you pretty close, so its not like i give all to you and you can go ham on me. Also my J3 with trait or even standing 3 is ridiculously good and both lead to full combo on hit. Plus MB pillar is quite handy when DS tries to get in and not really punishable on block and lastly i can cancel any of my strings into PP and by doing so im pretty much safe if you take distance between us into account.

You're welcome btw, it's quite refreshing actually to not have our MU discussion lorded by shitheads.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[KingHippo]

So I'll talk Grundy.

I've run this with Tyrant a few times, and after our explosive set at SCR, we both agreed it's definitely even. A big part of Grundy is the "I no scare, you no scare" aspect of his 112 string and in your face Walking Corpse. Obviously, this seems super scary when presented and can be really overwhelming, but a calm rationale will get you through it.

Basically, 112 is going to lead to cleaver, walking corpse, trait grab or (probably less frequently) swamp hands. Now the trick is knowing that a b3 mb will beat all of those options but walking corpse, which will beat that, but beating 3/4 options is a pretty good counter. In my opinion it's a little better to try and take the guess, since the worst he could do on block is trait grab, which will be some damage but nothing catastrophic. You should also be able to recognize Walking Corpse is coming and get into that meta.

Walking Corpse is pretty rough. I don't know what Doombawkz was trying to spit with the assault rife stuff, but I assure you it's somwhat of a bill. The move hits five times but hits in slow motion on an armored opponent. If Grundy is in range of a full Walking Corpse, you might land three hits, which is not enough to beat it out. Instead, learn the ungrabbable strings. Off the top of my head, b222, b23, and b1u2 are all not able to be grabbed, and 132 might not as well but I'm actually not sure (If anyone could correct me that'd be awesome). Once you learn those, you can threaten him and force him to start cancelling the corpses so he doesn't whiff the grab and leave himself open for punishment, which in turn will lead back into the netural game, where DS can compete very well.

Grundy's only real answer to guns is Walking Corpse, as he has no real punishment for them anywhere else. This is fine, but it's nice to be able to score chip here and there. Of course if he has chip trait on this will become irrelevant, but you still have the long range low option so it's a fair trade. MB Swamp Hands is a lingering threat, but with only two hits he probably will at best trade, which doesn't afford him damage but a mixup (Still scary, but less damage on the table). Down 2 is something I know a few Grundy's like to do at midrange, but its horizontal range isn't very good, so it's pretty easy to avoid, plus he has to cancel it to get anything from it on block without getting punished, so go nuts.

Grundy's air grab is going to shut down any jumping period, so unless it's a knockdown I wouldn't jump too much unless you got a solid read on the FOOSIES.

I think once you know all the options against Walking Corpse and the 112 mixup, it's pretty free form. He has to respect you at full screen and you have to respect him at mid range, but you have a few natural counters to his mid range shenanigans. Even matchup once it's all sewn up, just don't get rattled if he suddenly takes like 60%.

 

[ryublaze]

Hey can any1 help me with punishing MMH teleport on block? I don't have MMH but when I played @Red Reaper sometimes I could punish it and sometimes I couldn't. He told me that it depends on when you block it, like if you block it late then he'll be closer to you or something?

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Hey can any1 help me with punishing MMH teleport on block? I don't have MMH but when I played @Red Reaper sometimes I could punish it and sometimes I couldn't. He told me that it depends on when you block it, like if you block it late then he'll be closer to you or something?

When you see him float away after he punches the ground, you Sword Flip. You'll see that you did it right if you get the 'Reversal' notification.

 

[ryublaze]

When you see him float away after he punches the ground, you Sword Flip. You'll see that you did it right if you get the 'Reversal' notification.

yea but sometimes it'll say reversal and it still won't punish. I think it depends on when you block it. Like if ur already walking back and block then u won't be able to punish it. idk I didn't buy MMH so I can't practice it.