Match-up Discussion Official Deathstroke Match-up Chart v3

[Gesture Required Ahead]

If you aren't shot out of the air, you aren't doing much to a guy who d.2s the best air attacks in the game. And continue your zoning? As long as he doesn't punish you for trying to grapple then maybe but grapple is his "catch DS off guard".

Is it fast enough to stop b.1 and the like? Also you d.2ing his moves is questionable at that because of its slower speeds. Grundy may have a bigger reward, but DS has it more consistently and from more options and positions.



Talk about other characters and no one bats an eye, but mention Bane once and the whole world loses it

I don't even understand what you're trying to say here.

As I said 2 posts ago, he still has B1 , D1 and B2. But it doesn't allow for continuous pressure unless canceled into MBF3 for 2 bars. Meaning less chances of landing something.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Oh I'm losing it slowly trust me. This is pre '14 THTB levels right now

I fail to understand if you're with him or against him.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

I dunno, personally banes doesn't work on it but maybe Grundy has it better, I just tend to avoid that mess

For sure, Bane's AA grab is doodoo imo. Grundy's is great. It's 5 frames of sex and is basically immune to air attacks.

 

[JokeStroke]

making matchup charts is stupid and pointless ... just post setups and tech...

 

[KingHippo]

I fail to understand if you're with him or against him.

Anytime someone comes into a char forum and argues two chars they don't even play besides training mode bullfuckery I'm extremely against it.

 

[Doombawkz]

Anytime someone comes into a char forum and argues two chars they don't even play besides training mode bullfuckery I'm extremely against it.

I've used pretty much every character, you realize. I do most of my lab work with Bane but I extensively checked out a huge amount of characters in case I need to handle a trouble MU like flash or Zatanna. I'm just not fully vocal about most of them, but I've played my fair share.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say here.

As I said 2 posts ago, he still has B1 , D1 and B2. But it doesn't allow for continuous pressure unless canceled into MBF3 for 2 bars. Meaning less chances of landing something.

Basically if you jump, he can shoot you for free just about. Theres no huge skill window for reacting to Cyborg's iafb, and your counter was "what if its grapple" which I replied it does nothing for him. Specifically, if you continue your zoning he can keep checking you and has the better hand up close, and if you try to approach using it he can d.2 you out of the air without having to worry about much of anything.

He can cancel out into sword spin and still retains a decent amount of pressure, even on block. Regardless, the match is listed as a 5-5, but I could see how people might think its 6-4 DS's favor. I'm giving that side of the opinion spectrum, because personally I feel like he really could.

 

[Doombawkz]

For sure, Bane's AA grab is doodoo imo. Grundy's is great. It's 5 frames of sex and is basically immune to air attacks.

:|
#Idontthinkyoureadyforthisjelly
If only ring toss had venom armor on it, it would be fine.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

I've used pretty much every character, you realize. I do most of my lab work with Bane but I extensively checked out a huge amount of characters in case I need to handle a trouble MU like flash or Zatanna. I'm just not fully vocal about most of them, but I've played my fair share.



Basically if you jump, he can shoot you for free just about. Theres no huge skill window for reacting to Cyborg's iafb, and your counter was "what if its grapple" which I replied it does nothing for him. Specifically, if you continue your zoning he can keep checking you and has the better hand up close, and if you try to approach using it he can d.2 you out of the air without having to worry about much of anything.

He can cancel out into sword spin and still retains a decent amount of pressure, even on block. Regardless, the match is listed as a 5-5, but I could see how people might think its 6-4 DS's favor. I'm giving that side of the opinion spectrum, because personally I feel like he really could.

Deathstroke is not the one doing the checking, QuickFire is not an answer to Cyborg's zoning. It's more to get a lucky knockdown so he can get in. And DS does not have the better hand up-close, it's about even. Cyborg has the tools to keep DS out even in DS F3 range.

Spin pressure on block? Are you kidding me? That shit is -7. How are you continuing pressure? YOLO Sword Flip? You can barely do it on hit since it's neutral, much less on block. The moment you use Sword Spin, your momentum ends. It's a definite no-no unless you have your opponent in the corner.

 

[Doombawkz]

Deathstroke is not the one doing the checking, QuickFire is not an answer to Cyborg's zoning. It's more to get a lucky knockdown so he can get in. And DS does not have the better hand up-close, it's about even. Cyborg has the tools to keep DS out even in DS F3 range.

Spin pressure on block? Are you kidding me? That shit is -7. How are you continuing pressure? YOLO Sword Flip? You can barely do it on hit since it's neutral, much less on block. The moment you use Sword Spin, your momentum ends. It's a definite no-no unless you have your opponent in the corner.

Deathstroke is the one doing the checking. While Cyborg has travel distance to his projectile, Deathstroke's is near instant meaning if he feels the Cyborg is getting a bit froggy he can toss one out without too much worry since Cyborg doesn't have much in the way to punish him like some characters who do have instant projectiles. If Cyborg does jump, Deathstroke has no reason not to tag him with a quick fire, grapple or not. If he does grapple, he doesn't have any options that DS can't answer on the way down. As far as up close goes, he does have the better hand by a decent margin. His normals are faster, his mix-up potential is better, and his moves are all-in-all safer and lead to better results. Cyborg has some answers, sure, but in a 6-4/4-6 its not really unusual. I think you're misunderstanding, something being a slight disadvantage doesn't mean its a terrible MU, just not one you have advantage in. You're treating it like I'm saying DS cans the tin man 7-3 when thats not the case, DS simply has better options but its not like they aren't answerable.

Its not so much the spin on block (though it is nice) as it is the threat of it and the fact that after he does it, he has enough distance to work with where Grundy can't cover a lot of options without a huge risk accompanying it. It being -7 puts it outside of the raw punish range for grundy, and the fact that he gets himself a bit of push as well is bonus. If you try to block against it, you respect him enough to allow him to keep pressuring. If you don't respect it, you have a chance to eat it meanwhile DS doesn't have anything to fear barring Grundy being close. Thats the biggest thing, whats Grundy going to do in that situation? Its not like he is going to run, since he needs to be in, so he has no choice but to respect DS since pretty much none of his options cover that problem. From there the Grundy has to make the call on if he is going to sword spin or not. If he doesn't, the grundy has to capitalize and make pressure, but risks eating MB sword into QF or some other projectile which chucks him back full screen. If he does, he risks DS keeping on the pressure up close with fast normals. For a lot of characters, its no problem. DS sword spins on block, you get your chance to rock him with whatever projectile or punish you have. Grundy, Bane, and Shazam don't really have as easy of a time with it because all of the normals are on the slow side meaning you don't have an in to start anything. Bane at least has the pad of his armor, and Shazam at least has the ability to throw a b.2 and hope for the best since it covers a lot of options. Grundy doesn't really have either unless you count MB cleaver spin which, while underutilized, has a lot of utility in the MU imo. Thats not to mention even if you wanna keep pressure you have to keep an eye on that MB option he has, since from what I've noticed DS's usually keep one on hand and its not like he can't build it. But again, its as I said above in the whole 6-4 isn't unanswerable. I'm sure Grundy has some answers here and there, but they don't cover as many bases all at once as DS's does. The trade off is damage and he does have the oki advantage somewhat which makes it a MU thats certainly winnable, but he probably has to work a bit harder than the DS.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Deathstroke is the one doing the checking. While Cyborg has travel distance to his projectile, Deathstroke's is near instant meaning if he feels the Cyborg is getting a bit froggy he can toss one out without too much worry since Cyborg doesn't have much in the way to punish him like some characters who do have instant projectiles. If Cyborg does jump, Deathstroke has no reason not to tag him with a quick fire, grapple or not. If he does grapple, he doesn't have any options that DS can't answer on the way down. As far as up close goes, he does have the better hand by a decent margin. His normals are faster, his mix-up potential is better, and his moves are all-in-all safer and lead to better results. Cyborg has some answers, sure, but in a 6-4/4-6 its not really unusual. I think you're misunderstanding, something being a slight disadvantage doesn't mean its a terrible MU, just not one you have advantage in. You're treating it like I'm saying DS cans the tin man 7-3 when thats not the case, DS simply has better options but its not like they aren't answerable.

Its not so much the spin on block (though it is nice) as it is the threat of it and the fact that after he does it, he has enough distance to work with where Grundy can't cover a lot of options without a huge risk accompanying it. It being -7 puts it outside of the raw punish range for grundy, and the fact that he gets himself a bit of push as well is bonus. If you try to block against it, you respect him enough to allow him to keep pressuring. If you don't respect it, you have a chance to eat it meanwhile DS doesn't have anything to fear barring Grundy being close. Thats the biggest thing, whats Grundy going to do in that situation? Its not like he is going to run, since he needs to be in, so he has no choice but to respect DS since pretty much none of his options cover that problem. From there the Grundy has to make the call on if he is going to sword spin or not. If he doesn't, the grundy has to capitalize and make pressure, but risks eating MB sword into QF or some other projectile which chucks him back full screen. If he does, he risks DS keeping on the pressure up close with fast normals. For a lot of characters, its no problem. DS sword spins on block, you get your chance to rock him with whatever projectile or punish you have. Grundy, Bane, and Shazam don't really have as easy of a time with it because all of the normals are on the slow side meaning you don't have an in to start anything. Bane at least has the pad of his armor, and Shazam at least has the ability to throw a b.2 and hope for the best since it covers a lot of options. Grundy doesn't really have either unless you count MB cleaver spin which, while underutilized, has a lot of utility in the MU imo. Thats not to mention even if you wanna keep pressure you have to keep an eye on that MB option he has, since from what I've noticed DS's usually keep one on hand and its not like he can't build it. But again, its as I said above in the whole 6-4 isn't unanswerable. I'm sure Grundy has some answers here and there, but they don't cover as many bases all at once as DS's does. The trade off is damage and he does have the oki advantage somewhat which makes it a MU thats certainly winnable, but he probably has to work a bit harder than the DS.

QF doesn't recover fast enough to airQF punish a grappling Cyborg into MB Nova Blast. If he tries to, he eats a Nova Blast. And again, QF is nothing to fear about because more often than not, a Nova Blast is on the screen already. And it doesn't even need to be aerial. Again, It outdamages QF and has better recovery. I also am not implying that it's 7-3 because I think it's dead even and a fun match to play. And also, his normals are about the same speed as Cyborg's at the beginning of the match, for example, DS has no answer to 2B2 or whatever the double side kick is besides YOLO Flip. It probably has the same range as DS F3 but much faster and puts you fullscreen.

What threat does Sword Spin hold? There isn't a reason for you to not fuzzy MB. And it's a full combo punish if you block it. And the pushback is definitely not on DS's favor because Grundy is free to Cleaver, F1, Air Grab, WCC or D2 afterwards. DS needs to respect it. Again, unless you YOLO Flip. I also don't understand when you keep talking about DS's "fast normals" all DS's normals beside's D1 are slower than Grundy's St.1 and D2.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

I'm done with this. This will be the first and last time I have a MU discussion. To a player who doesn't play either characters at that too.

@GGA Slips @Crathen @KingHippo

I would appreciate if you guys answered my initial question on page 1.

 

[LaidbackOne]

Nobody is saying that. This is a Mu chart very similar to WW, another char hailed as "complete". When you're a complete character you simply have the tools to fight off a good deal of the dumb shit, plain and simple. Nobody disagrees that the top cats are really good and have enormously cheap things about them, and in comparison DS cheaper stuff isn't up to par, but being able to fight against it all while not greeting outright destroyed is a huge factor that I would argue only WW could match in comparison, as well as Batman and Superman.

A real top 5 char for this game would have a nice bit of 3-7s, and maybe one or two losing matchups. Pig is one of the only players who keeps it real about his character and has a legit top 5 mu chart. This is exactly what you always describe as "solid", someone who fights a majority of the cast but loses out against some chars. AKA a top ten character, which I've made clear.

The real part that grinds my gears is that you come in here while having only played a very rudimentary version of the character that gets blown up in certain matchups and then cry foul about how average he is. The fact is you are unevolved, while the rest of the DS players have been evolving and changing the way DS plays and we can see the writing on the wall. This character is great, and it is an insane boon to his viability that his toolset is so varied.

So please, for all of our sakes, take your ball and chain and run on back to the Phantom Zone where you belong and leave us to keep pushing the character. We are DONE with having to bow to outdated "authorities" on matchups and tech when you have accomplished absolutely nothing with he character and never will.

Good luck on all your future endeavors and I look forward to the next lbsh podcast, but would you kindly get the fuck outta here unless Zod is being discussed.

God, I love that post <3

 

[Yoaks]

The biggest advantages I can see to Deathstroke in a lot of matches is the fact that he's comfortable at lot of distances and the fact that his F3 is such a HUGE wall.

As much as it pains me to admit, M2Dave is a pretty good fighting game player BUT he suffers from what I suffer from: I must be shown what makes a character good. I'm terrible at seeing this myself.

What makes Deathstroke good is being able to fight at most distances, decent 50/50's, decent zoning, a good J3, 30%+ meterless, and the fact that it is VERY difficult to jump on him. I was watching KingHippo play and Deathstroke's D2 seems amazing. Sword Flip makes jumping seem stupid.

I do find it hard to believe Deathstroke has only a few bad matchups, but in a game like this, most of the characters are so close. Deathstroke has to play honest compared to other characters and that drops him IMO. His dirt is not nearly as stupid as other characters and that's what holds him back.

I think the main reason why he doesn't have any "dirt" is because he doesn't have a Trait. You look at the majority of the cast that are considered Top 10 and all their traits make the character GDLK! i.e. Zod, Batman, Bane, Sinestro, Flash etc.

 

[Immortal]

I would love to see reasoning behind saying that DS vs MMH is even. I play only MMH and i really don't see how this can be even.

@KingHippo @GGA Slips @RedRaptor10

I play vs DS players all the time, maybe not as good as KingHippo or Slips but still i don't see any problem with this MU for MMH. I saw Hippo vs Dink (DS vs MMH) at SCR and for me it just showed how you shouldn't play this MU as MMH.

DS can't zone MMH, OHTP shutdowns any of that so he has to get in. Which is pretty rough since i setup orbs all the time and even if he's close i just go trait and enjoy myself. He's D2 is great which prevents me from jumping in but not really a problem im ok with semi zoning + punishing hes attempts to get in (2 hit MB B3 is great for that and teleport even normal destroys his J3 attempts).

Anyway would love to discuss this with some good DS player.

PS. M2Fool should be banned from this thread.

 

[DinoPizzaria]

Deathstroke does not outzone Cyborg and definitely not outdamage him. IIRC, Nova Blasts do 8% and QuickFire does 6%. Nova Blasts recover faster than QF as well and has better hit and block advantage. So even if you spend the match trading projectiles, Cyborg will win.

Shazam's dash lets him get in really easily. And his wake-up options rid of DS's deadly oki game.

For Grundy, WC has 3 hits of armor, Quick Fire hits twice unless MB'd. If Grundy's Health Trait is activated, QF and LGS hold no threat unless he is trying to jump or do MB Swamp Hands.

I've done that matchup playing as Cyborg before and while DS guns are less damaging, they come out a tiny bit faster that Cyborgs nova blast. It will basically be a battle of trading projectiles so Cyborg would have to get at least one bar of meter and do a MB nova blast to get the first hit and give him the small hit advantage.

 

[Qwark28]

What people don't realise vs cyborg is that if you have a decent straight projectile to knock him down then you're golden. If you trade with IAFB you sometimes even recover faster and get a double dash, hit him out of IAFB and you get 1-2 free dashes. Add to the fact that Cyborg can't do comebacks, has no mixups, a shit ton of bad and sometimes interruptible strings and things get sour badly. I could easily see DS winning this matchup since he has the ability to close the gap, get in, do damage and must only get in when he doesn't have the lead as well as very easily defend it.

 

[Yoaks]

What people don't realise vs cyborg is that if you have a decent straight projectile to knock him down then you're golden. If you trade with IAFB you sometimes even recover faster and get a double dash, hit him out of IAFB and you get 1-2 free dashes. Add to the fact that Cyborg can't do comebacks, has no mixups, a shit ton of bad and sometimes interruptible strings and things get sour badly. I could easily see DS winning this matchup since he has the ability to close the gap, get in, do damage and must only get in when he doesn't have the lead as well as very easily defend it.

Poor Cyborg.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

How does he beat Cyborg , Quinn , Lobo , Shazam and Grundy?

On Harley, Id say that DS wins pretty decisively. His d2 is a great anti air vs her and she also has a very hard time zoning against him. Low guns are amazing in this MU since it goes under her guns, which it seems like a lot of characters have a hard time dealing with. Also, you can pop her out of the air with your own air guns. Sure she outdamages you and has a slightly better corner game, but i feel like DS overall has better footsie tools with way more plus frames and can win air to air exchanges with j1. I'd say its probably 6-4, winnable for harley but difficult.

Shazam I don't think is as free as people think it is, but Shazam is forced to play your game. Shazam will almost ALWAYS win the air to air exchange with his j2 and has an amazing backdash which is really hard to deal with post F3. Remember that his b2 and b23 are punishable by 132 and his psycho crusher is punishable as well but what you get depends on range. I'm not 100% sure but i think even at max distance you can at least shoot him (@ISF_AWG_Indecisive confirm or deny?). Also Shazam's teleport doesn't let you run your normal post-knockdown options and even if you read it, its hard to punish with j3 since the recovery is very small. However, Shazam is forced to take a good amount of chip on his way in and can be outfootsied to an extent. the main thing you have to watch out for is b23 which gives zero fucks about air normals and will beat out whatever you try to throw out (i swear it has upper body invuln or some bullshit but i know that NRS likes to make invuln exclusive to wakeup -_-). Its hard for me to put numbers on it but a lot of people say its 7-3, i personally think its 6-4. It's just Shazam players like to get reckless which DS murders you for.

Grundy is pretty easy to deal with because he is forced to get in and you can react to him lifting his foot up for swamp hands and regular standing guns with beat out his armor since he has only one hit. b1u2 and f3 will go straight through walking corpse, however he can use heat knuckle (whatever the fuck the air grab is called, im going with what its called in guilty gear lol) to blow it up and pretty much all your jump ins. For some reason Grundy players don't like to use chip trait which i think is essential in this matchup because at that point he can just hit you once, get the life lead and sit there and force you to come in. Up until he gets chip trait, you can harass the fuck out of him with guns. Also, Grundy is very limited after he blocks a f3. His backdash will get caught by a j3, so if you scout that, you get good dammy and he has to respect the post f3 mixup a lot more than most characters do that can backdash out of it and force you to chase them down and go for a mixup if you read backdash, but if they read you chasing a backdash they can pop you out of it. I'd say this is somewhere between 7-3 and 6-4, closer to the 6-4 side. However, if the Grundy player neglects to use chip trait, it is definitely 7-3.

I personally cannot comment on Lobo due to a lack of MU experience :/. @GGA Fill Pops hopefully we can get some games in at FR so i can figure that shit.

What people don't realise vs cyborg is that if you have a decent straight projectile to knock him down then you're golden. If you trade with IAFB you sometimes even recover faster and get a double dash, hit him out of IAFB and you get 1-2 free dashes. Add to the fact that Cyborg can't do comebacks, has no mixups, a shit ton of bad and sometimes interruptible strings and things get sour badly. I could easily see DS winning this matchup since he has the ability to close the gap, get in, do damage and must only get in when he doesn't have the lead as well as very easily defend it.

One of the only times i played against Jailhouse's Cyborg, he traded grounded fireballs with me and was doing more damage than me, so i was forced to go in. that's all i can really comment on this match. @Relaxedstate whats the next event you're going to be at so i can grind out some cyborg nonsense?

 

[Indecisive]

On Harley, Id say that DS wins pretty decisively. His d2 is a great anti air vs her and she also has a very hard time zoning against him. Low guns are amazing in this MU since it goes under her guns, which it seems like a lot of characters have a hard time dealing with. Also, you can pop her out of the air with your own air guns. Sure she outdamages you and has a slightly better corner game, but i feel like DS overall has better footsie tools with way more plus frames and can win air to air exchanges with j1. I'd say its probably 6-4, winnable for harley but difficult.

Shazam I don't think is as free as people think it is, but Shazam is forced to play your game. Shazam will almost ALWAYS win the air to air exchange with his j2 and has an amazing backdash which is really hard to deal with post F3. Remember that his b2 and b23 are punishable by 132 and his psycho crusher is punishable as well but what you get depends on range. I'm not 100% sure but i think even at max distance you can at least shoot him (@ISF_AWG_Indecisive confirm or deny?). Also Shazam's teleport doesn't let you run your normal post-knockdown options and even if you read it, its hard to punish with j3 since the recovery is very small. However, Shazam is forced to take a good amount of chip on his way in and can be outfootsied to an extent. the main thing you have to watch out for is b23 which gives zero fucks about air normals and will beat out whatever you try to throw out (i swear it has upper body invuln or some bullshit but i know that NRS likes to make invuln exclusive to wakeup -_-). Its hard for me to put numbers on it but a lot of people say its 7-3, i personally think its 6-4. It's just Shazam players like to get reckless which DS murders you for.

Grundy is pretty easy to deal with because he is forced to get in and you can react to him lifting his foot up for swamp hands and regular standing guns with beat out his armor since he has only one hit. b1u2 and f3 will go straight through walking corpse, however he can use heat knuckle (whatever the fuck the air grab is called, im going with what its called in guilty gear lol) to blow it up and pretty much all your jump ins. For some reason Grundy players don't like to use chip trait which i think is essential in this matchup because at that point he can just hit you once, get the life lead and sit there and force you to come in. Up until he gets chip trait, you can harass the fuck out of him with guns. Also, Grundy is very limited after he blocks a f3. His backdash will get caught by a j3, so if you scout that, you get good dammy and he has to respect the post f3 mixup a lot more than most characters do that can backdash out of it and force you to chase them down and go for a mixup if you read backdash, but if they read you chasing a backdash they can pop you out of it. I'd say this is somewhere between 7-3 and 6-4, closer to the 6-4 side. However, if the Grundy player neglects to use chip trait, it is definitely 7-3.

I personally cannot comment on Lobo and Cyborg due to a lack of MU experience :/. @GGA Fill Pops hopefully we can get some games in at FR so i can figure that shit. @Relaxedstate whats the next event you're going to be at so i can grind out some cyborg nonsense?

Its 6-4 DS for the Shazam MU. I think you can punish the Torpedo with Quick Fire if you reversal it. We can test it more at FR if you want. But if im at max distance with the torpedo its harder to punish. We can talk about it later.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Why is frost even?

Other than what @GGA 16 Bit has said, I also feel that from full screen, DS can kinda sit there and just wait for frost to do shit and shoot he on reaction. of course, online you can't do this but i feel that you can totally be able to slow the pace down zoning her, but only if you are doing reaction based zoning. low guns > icicles, air guns/j1/swordflip > air dashes, standing guns > iceberg on block, standing guns > dashes. of course, my reactions are kinda whack most of the times, sometimes im able to do it, but if im on point i feel very comfortable from full screen. someone who has good reactions should be able to keep her locked down at full screen. the fact that low guns is punishable from anywhere isn't really that big of a deal because you can punish her for doing pretty much anything from full screen when she cant. not only are his anti airs very good against frost, j1 is a really good air to air option in this MU. like every matchup against frost its pretty much a huge game of "don't get hit" so even though he has all these tools to deal with her, its still a very obnoxious matchup.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Its 6-4 DS for the Shazam MU. I think you can punish the Torpedo with Quick Fire if you reversal it. We can test it more at FR if you want. But if im at max distance with the torpedo its harder to punish. We can talk about it later.

yeah we can, we have a long ride ahead of us lol

 

[RM Truth]

Agreed with Batgirl being even.

 

[1man3letters]

@RedRaptor10 vs scorpion is not a even mu IMO.

scorpion out damages ds
ds cant punish mb telepunch on block, has to jump back to catch with j3 which leads himself open to normal tele/spear
just frame punish on b2, generally ds has weak punish answers in the mu
zoning and jump in game limited.
scorpion has just as strong corner game and can get out of the corner alot easier than ds can.

ds can compete with scorpion very well but i see atm how its even

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

On Harley, Id say that DS wins pretty decisively. His d2 is a great anti air vs her and she also has a very hard time zoning against him. Low guns are amazing in this MU since it goes under her guns, which it seems like a lot of characters have a hard time dealing with. Also, you can pop her out of the air with your own air guns. Sure she outdamages you and has a slightly better corner game, but i feel like DS overall has better footsie tools with way more plus frames and can win air to air exchanges with j1. I'd say its probably 6-4, winnable for harley but difficult.

Shazam I don't think is as free as people think it is, but Shazam is forced to play your game. Shazam will almost ALWAYS win the air to air exchange with his j2 and has an amazing backdash which is really hard to deal with post F3. Remember that his b2 and b23 are punishable by 132 and his psycho crusher is punishable as well but what you get depends on range. I'm not 100% sure but i think even at max distance you can at least shoot him (@ISF_AWG_Indecisive confirm or deny?). Also Shazam's teleport doesn't let you run your normal post-knockdown options and even if you read it, its hard to punish with j3 since the recovery is very small. However, Shazam is forced to take a good amount of chip on his way in and can be outfootsied to an extent. the main thing you have to watch out for is b23 which gives zero fucks about air normals and will beat out whatever you try to throw out (i swear it has upper body invuln or some bullshit but i know that NRS likes to make invuln exclusive to wakeup -_-). Its hard for me to put numbers on it but a lot of people say its 7-3, i personally think its 6-4. It's just Shazam players like to get reckless which DS murders you for.

Grundy is pretty easy to deal with because he is forced to get in and you can react to him lifting his foot up for swamp hands and regular standing guns with beat out his armor since he has only one hit. b1u2 and f3 will go straight through walking corpse, however he can use heat knuckle (whatever the fuck the air grab is called, im going with what its called in guilty gear lol) to blow it up and pretty much all your jump ins. For some reason Grundy players don't like to use chip trait which i think is essential in this matchup because at that point he can just hit you once, get the life lead and sit there and force you to come in. Up until he gets chip trait, you can harass the fuck out of him with guns. Also, Grundy is very limited after he blocks a f3. His backdash will get caught by a j3, so if you scout that, you get good dammy and he has to respect the post f3 mixup a lot more than most characters do that can backdash out of it and force you to chase them down and go for a mixup if you read backdash, but if they read you chasing a backdash they can pop you out of it. I'd say this is somewhere between 7-3 and 6-4, closer to the 6-4 side. However, if the Grundy player neglects to use chip trait, it is definitely 7-3.

I personally cannot comment on Lobo due to a lack of MU experience :/. @GGA Fill Pops hopefully we can get some games in at FR so i can figure that shit.



One of the only times i played against Jailhouse's Cyborg, he traded grounded fireballs with me and was doing more damage than me, so i was forced to go in. that's all i can really comment on this match. @Relaxedstate whats the next event you're going to be at so i can grind out some cyborg nonsense?

I can agree to pretty much everything but I'm going to comment about F3 vs Grundy that it mostly gets stuffed. So you would have to condition with B2, D1 and B1 first

 

[Srryimwhte]

imo DS loses to Lobo 4-6 and DD vs DS is even.

that hurts man and fuck doomsday