Match-up Discussion Official Deathstroke Match-up Chart v3

[Gesture Required Ahead]

How do you fight Shazam? Both my training partners use Shazam and even after months of playing IDK wtf is happening I just win or lose because 1 of us dies.

Main problems:

Atlas Torpedo MB into another Atlas Torpedo
22 into LowGrab / HighGrab / Atlas Torpedo
Teleport
Atlas Torpedo beyond St.1 range, still punishable or no?
Anti-Airing his Batman J2

Going to go into detail after an initial response. Anyone? @GGA Slips @KingHippo @AVN PTH jonnitti @Crathen @RedRaptor10

 

[RM Jonnitti]

How do you fight Shazam? Both my training partners use Shazam and even after months of playing IDK wtf is happening I just win or lose because 1 of us dies.

Main problems:

Atlas Torpedo MB into another Atlas Torpedo
22 into LowGrab / HighGrab / Atlas Torpedo
Teleport
Atlas Torpedo beyond St.1 range, still punishable or no?
Anti-Airing his Batman J2

Going to go into detail after an initial response. Anyone? @GGA Slips @KingHippo @AVN PTH jonnitti @Crathen @RedRaptor10

so i regularly play @Indecisive. before i go into what you asked me about, theres a few things i want to say about this character to start off. the one thing barely anybody realizes in this matchup is that you absolutely cannot fuck with shazam in air to air exchanges. sometimes you can get j1 to win, you won't win reliably. also, dont fuck with the 2nd hit of b23 with j3. if you want to whiff punish that move you have to whiff punish the first hit on a read and you will hit shazam in between the 2 hits. also, your post f3 game is severely crippled by shazam's backdash from midscreen. hes one of the only characters that j3 wont catch a backdash after a blocked f3. you can chase him down and go for another mixup but you wont do anything that can punish his backdash 100% unless you're using guns which of course are mega unsafe. crathen made a video punishing shazam's backdash with a delayed dash and then a 323 but i haven't once gotten it to work against indecisive or in training mode, but i think a big chance of that could be because i suck

as far as psycho crusher go, you should be able to shoot him after blocking. the Bison setup with MB psycho crusher is just a straight up 50/50. i personally can't visually see a cross up or not, but keep in mind that he us unsafe if you guess right. btw i refuse to call atlas torpedo anything but psycho crusher or iGDR

22 command grab i believe backdashable and if thats the case, with the torpedo, its basically a high risk 50/50. just make sure you are shooting him after a psycho crusher on block.

j2 is a dick. you need to do an earlier anti air. blocking it isn't the worst idea in the world because whenever shazam does something, he really puts himself out there. i like to think of him a lot like mitsurugi from soul calibur or paul from tekken, a really high risk/high reward 50/50 character that can really scare the shit out of you if you're opponent can get a few good reads on you.

teleports on wakeup are really annoying. from a distance you can meaty assault riffle or delay low guns to punish wakeup teleports. a lot of shazams like to backdash out of the corner. you can try to punish him for teleporting out with j3 but you have to be REALLY early and read that shit. its mostly obnoxious because most of your normal corner bullshit doesnt work against him. the grounded corner pressure is still there but the okizeme just really isnt. grounded teleports barely have invuln so you can punish him by shooting him.


i personally think this matchup is 6-4 DS and is best played really patiently.

 

[KingHippo]

I've faced a few Shazams here and there and I feel DS can take the match pretty handily.

Atlas Torpedo should almost always be punishable by Sword Flip, so if they are just spamming it I would check with that after.

Anti-airing is as easy as D2 or Sword Flip, whichever you prefer.

Teleport is annoying but if they start doing a rote pattern doing a machine gun can actually knock him for a few percent as he comes out. I would try it. On wakeup it's a different beast, and oki is pretty different on Shazam since he can get out of most of it pretty free.

22 xx grabs are backdashable, and 22 xx torpedo will beat that. Typically I go for a crouch, and see if I can react to the torpedo coming out. You may also be able to reversal after 22 before anything hits, although I'm not 100% on that. If I get hit by the low grab I will just deal with it usually, it's not huge damage.

One thing that really helps here is knowing that Shazam going into command grab after b2 is a bill as it will not connect on block. The problem is how fast it will recover, but I'm sure DS can get a b1 punish on that attempt.

Another thing is that since Shazam's approach is pretty limited, down 2 is really a big block on his offense. The lingering nature of its active frames will really go to town on back 2, and his dashes are long ranged but will be slow on the recovery, easy to smack. It recovers so fast that him whiff punishing the d2 can be difficult, and sweep is really his only option, provided he's in range.

To me what hurts Shazam is that he has a hard time getting in as all his avenues are either punishable (Torpedo, b23) or moves that are sort of smoke and mirrors and have answers if one is knowledgeable (Teleport in, b2 xx command grab). He could also jump, but this is nigh impossible against DS.

Shazam does have a few things going for him, like his backdash being so good and his mixups are pretty good, but he's doing most of the guessing, and that sucks for him. As @Heroic_Legacy once said, the idea with Shazam is to focus on the knockdown and not really concern with how bad the matchup is, and that's all Shazam can really do is run in and hope that none of his options are caught.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

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So is something like Teleport into B23 / D3 / High Grab an online gimmick bill of goods? It seems that unlike most characters where I can punish a read Teleport with 132, I can't with Shazam because he's normally outside that range and I have to eat a mix-up. And Hippo D2 nor Flip never wins against his J2 it has absurdly high priority. What I normally do is either Forward Dash on read or block eat a 22 mix-up. I feel like Shazam is a ghetto Flash where I'm always eating mix-ups into big damage and I can't do MY mix-ups because he gets out for free.

 

[Indecisive]

So is something like Teleport into B23 / D3 / High Grab an online gimmick bill of goods? It seems that unlike most characters where I can punish a read Teleport with 132, I can't with Shazam because he's normally outside that range and I have to eat a mix-up. And Hippo D2 nor Flip never wins against his J2 it has absurdly high priority. What I normally do is either Forward Dash on read or block eat a 22 mix-up. I feel like Shazam is a ghetto Flash where I'm always eating mix-ups into big damage and I can't do MY mix-ups because he gets out for free.

DS D2 Works sometimes. Or we trade. or mine knocks you out of your D2.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

DS D2 Works sometimes. Or we trade. or mine knocks you out of your D2.

Injustice...

 

[Indecisive]

Injustice...

It depends on timing, height, etc.

 

[KingHippo]

So is something like Teleport into B23 / D3 / High Grab an online gimmick bill of goods? It seems that unlike most characters where I can punish a read Teleport with 132, I can't with Shazam because he's normally outside that range and I have to eat a mix-up. And Hippo D2 nor Flip never wins against his J2 it has absurdly high priority. What I normally do is either Forward Dash on read or block eat a 22 mix-up. I feel like Shazam is a ghetto Flash where I'm always eating mix-ups into big damage and I can't do MY mix-ups because he gets out for free.

Saying d2 or flip never wins is just not accurate. I know from experience the usual flowchart of crossup = d2 and front approach = flip works just fine against it. Online is definitely a factor, but yeah I don't think his jumpins are the biggest threat here. I don't mean to belittle or imply that you are spreading misinformation, but I usually feel like that in this game, most jumpins people find unbearable can be hit with d2's, barring like Aqua j3.

As far as the teleport thing, if he's doing it a range where you can't hit him with 132, then I wouldn't mind just crouching or walking back. Odds are you'll walk back right out of sweep and grab range and then his only choice will be b2, which is just strictly punishable. Personally, I crouch, since I'm confident that since I know the only surprise can be overhead that I will react, but that's your call.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Saying d2 or flip never wins is just not accurate. I know from experience the usual flowchart of crossup = d2 and front approach = flip works just fine against it. Online is definitely a factor, but yeah I don't think his jumpins are the biggest threat here. I don't mean to belittle or imply that you are spreading misinformation, but I usually feel like that in this game, most jumpins people find unbearable can be hit with d2's, barring like Aqua j3.

As far as the teleport thing, if he's doing it a range where you can't hit him with 132, then I wouldn't mind just crouching or walking back. Odds are you'll walk back right out of sweep and grab range and then his only choice will be b2, which is just strictly punishable. Personally, I crouch, since I'm confident that since I know the only surprise can be overhead that I will react, but that's your call.

It was a poor choice of words on my part as far as D2 goes, I just meant that it's inconsistent and it's a big annoyance. As for the post-tele thing, it's that he also has the command grab so the D3 and B2 are secondary worries.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

It was a poor choice of words on my part as far as D2 goes, I just meant that it's inconsistent and it's a big annoyance. As for the post-tele thing, it's that he also has the command grab so the D3 and B2 are secondary worries.

d2 works against most jump ins in the game if you do it early enough. it wont beat out some j3s that have extended hitboxes but thats really it, but of course there are exceptions to this. i remember one time i was playing KDZ's WoWo at a session at my house and i d2'd a wonderwoman divekick. now, don't go around saying that i think its a good idea to do that, it is really hard to d2 a divekick. she can do it at any point of her jump arc, so its definitely not reliable, but it does work, so if you think about it for a bit, it really is a very good anti air. a lot of times when you trade you can still convert. when that happens it kinda reminds me of sf4 sagat where he can get towards roundhouse after a dp trades (i think they got rid of that in AE or super not sure, i know they got rid of traded dp into ultra for ryu atfer vanilla).

don't take this as "ds has the best d2 in the game". he definitely has a really fucking good one with a lot of utility but some characters have ones that are a little bit more useful like aquaman and wonder woman for example. but he definitely has the best f3 in the game

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

d2 works against most jump ins in the game if you do it early enough. it wont beat out some j3s that have extended hitboxes but thats really it, but of course there are exceptions to this. i remember one time i was playing KDZ's WoWo at a session at my house and i d2'd a wonderwoman divekick. now, don't go around saying that i think its a good idea to do that, it is really hard to d2 a divekick. she can do it at any point of her jump arc, so its definitely not reliable, but it does work, so if you think about it for a bit, it really is a very good anti air. a lot of times when you trade you can still convert. when that happens it kinda reminds me of sf4 sagat where he can get towards roundhouse after a dp trades (i think they got rid of that in AE or super not sure, i know they got rid of traded dp into ultra for ryu atfer vanilla).

don't take this as "ds has the best d2 in the game". he definitely has a really fucking good one with a lot of utility but some characters have ones that are a little bit more useful like aquaman and wonder woman for example. but he definitely has the best f3 in the game

Ryu can still Ultra 1 after Light DP trade. But that's not our game lol. I wasn't saying DS's D2 is inconsistent. I meant that D2-ing Shazam's J2 is. 'cause fuck that J2 it's exactly like Batman's

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Ryu can still Ultra 1 after Light DP trade. But that's not our game lol. I wasn't saying DS's D2 is inconsistent. I meant that D2-ing Shazam's J2 is. 'cause fuck that J2 it's exactly like Batman's

it was our game for a lot of us a few years ago . but yeah shazam's j2 is really annoying. i dont think its amazing though. both batman's j2 and shazam's j2 you can both anti air pretty reliably, but bats happen so you can't anti air that. try doing d2 early. anti airs are always kinda gay online but it is what it is.

 

[Vagrant]

And Hippo D2 nor Flip never wins against his J2 it has absurdly high priority. .

This is false. Work on your spacing for this in training mode just record him doing j2 at different points in the jump. There's a sweet spot to d2, you'll find it. You want to space yourself so that if he jumps in that sweet spot will blow it up.

 

[Qwark28]

Playing online and not testing in practice mode makes every jump look insanely good.

Teleport you can punish on reaction with quick shot or get a F3/J3 check.

You can backdash out of 2-2 x special and quickshot psycho crusher I believe.

His dashes I would be jump happy against, if you miss a quickshot he gets a punish but I'm not sure on that ( command grab ).

 

[BarackaFlockaFlame]

DS goes even with aqua? good to know can someone explain how its an even MU?

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Playing online and not testing in practice mode makes every jump look insanely good.

Teleport you can punish on reaction with quick shot or get a F3/J3 check.

You can backdash out of 2-2 x special and quickshot psycho crusher I believe.

His dashes I would be jump happy against, if you miss a quickshot he gets a punish but I'm not sure on that ( command grab ).

I wouldnt get too hump happy. Shazam d2 is a pretty decent button and the dude really hits like a truck. Also his backdash in most cases will make your jump in whiffwhen it would catch pretty much everyone elses backdash because he goes back like 3/4 screen lol

 

[Qwark28]

I wouldnt get too hump happy. Shazam d2 is a pretty decent button and the dude really hits like a truck. Also his backdash in most cases will make your jump in whiffwhen it would catch pretty much everyone elses backdash because he goes back like 3/4 screen lol

Yeah, but you force him to back off, I did take it into consideration.

Man, I know DS's J3 is not that inferior to Joker's.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Yeah, but you force him to back off, I did take it into consideration.

Man, I know DS's J3 is not that inferior to Joker's.

Im pretty sure joker has a longer jump arc

 

[Qwark28]

Im pretty sure joker has a longer jump arc

Shorter and a longer downwards angled J3

 

[RM Jonnitti]

DS goes even with aqua? good to know can someone explain how its an even MU?

I dont think this is even but I dont think its bad enough to complain about, definitely winnnable and the advantage that aquaman has is very minimal. Overall, he has much better normals and his poking range is much larger than yours. Where his optimal range is, all you reallu have is stand 3 and f3 which are much slower than most of his shit. However, aquaman is extremely free to DS on okizeme, but you have to be careful about trait because it hets him out of a lot of shit. When he has trait available dont even bother using setups that arent with j3 or f3. Without trait he has to show you so much respect on your oki which is really his saving grace in the mu

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

This is false. Work on your spacing for this in training mode just record him doing j2 at different points in the jump. There's a sweet spot to d2, you'll find it. You want to space yourself so that if he jumps in that sweet spot will blow it up.

Would the sweet spot be the same as Bats?

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Would the sweet spot be the same as Bats?

for almost every jump in it is around the time when they start descending in their jump arc

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

for almost every jump in it is around the time when they start descending in their jump arc

Well yea lol. I meant where. The tip of their feet don't work for D2 nor Flip , the middle part at the bent knee trades with D2 sometimes, never with Flip, and the cross-up beats both, but you can Forward dash that. Generally, I've been staying away from Flip lately because it seems inconsistent unless you get them early in the jump.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Well yea lol. I meant where. The tip of their feet don't work for D2 nor Flip , the middle part at the bent knee trades with D2 sometimes, never with Flip, and the cross-up beats both, but you can Forward dash that. Generally, I've been staying away from Flip lately because it seems inconsistent unless you get them early in the jump.

honestly idk. i havent even broken it down that much, it usually just works without me thinking about what part of shazam i am hitting. idk what to tell you

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

honestly idk. i havent even broken it down that much, it usually just works without me thinking about what part of shazam i am hitting. idk what to tell you

So the game just hates me and won't let me AA? lol anyways thanks for the tips guys I'll see how all of it works in practice. But seriously fuck Shazam.