Discussion NRS Patching - Genuine Balance or Mere Tier Shifting?

[Dankster Morgan]

I agree that he's in a good place now for the most part, I'm just saying he's had his fair share of Nick Young reaction-inducing changes.

Yeah thats true.

 

[Euphoric]

I have never seen a balance NRS game when comparing to other popular fighting games say TK, SF, and KOF. The balance of top tier to everyone else is a lot closer than NRS top tier to everyone else.

Ofcourse, NRS is smart..... They want the DLC characters to be broken so people would buy them

SFV is ran by Chun and 6 Vanilla chars

Tekken was a Bob fest

 

[juicepouch]

Imo characters that were handled properly in patches:
Kitana, Quan, Kotal, Jason, Jax, Scorpion, Cassie, Jacqui, Kung Jin, Liu Kang, Reptile, Goro, Tremor

Characters that were handled badly in patches: Alien, Kung Lao, Sonya, Kenshi, Sub-Zero, Mileena, Takeda, Tanya, Bo, Leatherface, Predator, Shinnok, Kano, Cage, Erron Black, Ermac, Ferra/Torr, D'Vorah, Raiden, Triborg

To be fair to NRS, there are several great changes they have made, but imo most of the changes were questionable.

NRS killed Kuatan Warrior with the OTG change and no compensation. #NeverForget

 

[Perdition]

NRS needs to look within themselves and identify their problem when it comes to creating a balanced game. Paulo is amazing with the community and all around good guy, but it SEEMS like he has no clue how to get close to anything resembling a good balance in his work.

Level up, Paulo. NRS fans deserve a game that they can be proud of for once.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

NRS killed Kuatan Warrior with the OTG change and no compensation. #NeverForget

That's true, and as unfortunate as that is, Dragon Fangs and Tigrar Fury are pretty good now. I mean Goro isn't really an amazing character but he is a balanced one that for the most part got closer to where a character ideally should be through the balance patches, which was more the purpose of that post.

 

[Pan1cMode]

I agree for the most part, but want to point out that with the exception of Tanya (and potentially Kung Lao) the normalisations to the top tier have been pretty balanced and fair.

I think overall the patches have been a positive influence on the game and as bad as we complain things are now; they were worse when the game first came out. It's not just a matter of simple tier switching.

 

[trufenix]

NRS needs to look within themselves and identify their problem when it comes to creating a balanced game. Paulo is amazing with the community and all around good guy, but it SEEMS like he has no clue how to get close to anything resembling a good balance in his work.

Level up, Paulo. NRS fans deserve a game that they can be proud of for once.

Where's the bar boyo, wheres the balanced game we need but don't deserve right now? Marvel? Smash? KI? SFV/IV? Tekken? Which of those games doesn't have top tier characters and unblockable bullshit?

 

[M2Dave]

Personally, I think the idea of "tier shifting" is goofy and a weird talking point because, invariably, balance patches essentially WILL do that, and I don't think I've ever played a fighter where a bit patch hasn't invariably shaken up how character matchups play out across the board. The very point of a balance patch is often to shake up who's good and who's bad, so of course you're going to see some changes across the board. I don't think that is the issue.

The thesis of my argument is "I would simply like to make the argument that as much as the patches attempt to balance the game, they shift tiers more so than anything else, with little to no changes to the meta game".

The shakeups are only part of my argument. My bigger complaint is, again, is the fact that certain characters' tools get normalized or removed while certain other characters' tools are kept the same or buffed. I give abundant examples in my first post. If there were a top tier character, even an existing one or one who was over-buffed, basically anyone who depended on something else other than safe 50/50 mix ups, which we have already seen a thousand times by now, I would support and embrace the balance choice, because at least the meta would be different. For this reason, I like to watch and play against Mileena, who digresses from the safe 50/50 mix up game unlike Alien, Kano, Sonya, and Takeda. Hell, I even like to play against Johnny Cage, who will attempt to zone me and force me into f+3's range. With this admission, your "control" and "annoyance" argument is irrelevant and preposterous to me and many, many other players. We prefer not to get knocked down and flip the damn coin.

I hope you realize I am making this argument even though I heavily benefited from similar balance decisions in Mortal Kombat 9. I know you remember how much the community complained about Kano's zoning, which consisted of knives and up ball. A patch later, Kano ended up being the worst character in the game, along with Sheeva. Then came Freddy, who was somehow "allowed to live", as Pig would say. Freddy had a better zoning game than Kano ever had at any point in the game.

 

[Perdition]

Where's the bar boyo, wheres the balanced game we need but don't deserve right now? Marvel? Smash? KI? SFV/IV? Tekken? Which of those games doesn't have top tier characters and unblockable bullshit?

If you read Daves post and think all those issues are from a man/team who is competent at their job...I don't know what to say.

Paulo plays with the balance of a game like it is his action figures.

 

[just_2swift]

Poor Lao #make+12greatagain

 

[Pan1cMode]

For example, Id point to instances like pre-patch Grandmaster, pre-patch Cassie, pre patch Kung Jin, pre-patch Erron, pre-patch Quan...

I don't think alien, Takeda, mileena or Sonya are as "broken" as certain characters were on release.

Although heaps of bullshit still exists in this game, overall I think it's been toned down from when it first came out; that's saying a lot considering.

 

[Belial]

There is only one problem with NRS patching - buffs.

The less you change the game the easier it is to balance. According to Occam's razor principle as little changes as possible should be made. Only necessary stuff has to be fixed.

And while broken stuff IS obvious from tournament footage bad characters are not obvious. There could be lots of reasons why character is not played aside from being awful
a) Current top tier characters pervent it from being played
b) There are other characters that have similiar tools, but better (vs current meta)
c) No good player ever looked his way (bc bandwagon)

When you nerf top tier it already changes meta a lot. If NRS focused on nerfing broken stuff instead of buffing we could have had a balanced game by now.

 

[B. Shazzy]

with how much casual support these games i dont think theyre interested in making a competitive fighting game as priority #1, just a balance between something that's not completely broken and something the creates more exposure for their games like being apart of the fgc. i feel like some of you guys believe boon and paulo are just waiting to hear your opinions as you make some of these threads. meanwhile boon just makes another twitter poll and talks about aquaman's super while paulo mumbles out some new quan buffs on stream or whatever.

it sucks to try and play nrs games with a competitive mind set. u guise want it to be one way but it's the other way.

 

[M2Dave]

with how much casual support these games i dont think theyre interested in making a competitive fighting game as priority #1, just a balance between something that's not completely broken and something the creates more exposure for their games like being apart of the fgc. i feel like some of you guys believe boon and paulo are just waiting to hear your opinions as you make some of these threads. meanwhile boon just makes another twitter poll and talks about aquaman's super while paulo mumbles out some new quan buffs on stream or whatever.

it sucks to try and play nrs games with a competitive mind set. u guise want it to be one way but it's the other way.

I disagree. The fact that NRS fixed the net code to such an extent that its online gameplay is the best in the fighting game business proves that NRS cares about balance and competitive gameplay. The majority of players who play online are not casual players but competitive players. Given the initial atrocity of the net code, I presume the cost involved for this repair must have been enormous. NRS should always be commended for overhauling the online gameplay. They care. If there is another patch and another season of ESL, there is no doubt they do care.

 

[Tweedy]

I am aware, but what most of the community thinks should be disregarded. Obviously, Alien players want Alien to be as good as he can be, Bo Rai Cho players want Bo Rai Cho to be as good as he can be, D'Vorah players want D'Vorah to be as good as she can be, etc. Tournament results and general consensus on tier lists can be taken into account, but social media websites should not dictate specific balance changes. The gameplay department at NRS are the experts. They make unbiased changes that are best for the game, not for certain characters or players.

ComboFiend's message to the Street Fighter community has more or less been "Shut up and play the game. It is not changing until after Capcom Cup no matter how hard you cry", which generally promotes an environment that contains less complaints and less buffs and nerfs threads.

Yeah, it'd be cool if the next NRS game didn't get patched so often, but that's just the nature of games that come out every other year. They just can't balance it as well as a game that takes an 8 year break.

To add to your point, people just aren't going to not play SFV, so even when the game has a legit problem, like 8 frames of lag making forward dashes a mix up, people who are really about the game are going to deal with it. When MKX has a problem, bigger or even much less significant than 8 frames of lag, NRS guys are quick to complain because of how trigger happy NRS can be with patches.

You see guys like Pig and Foxy complaining as much as SFV stream monsters. It makes the game look way worse than it is. There was one tweet before EVO that Ketchup made, about how it's sad that people aren't going to EVO because of 2/3. Some guy who was clearly clueless said "lol it's a broken game, no one wants to play that", while Ketchup and others in the comments of the tweet were baffled, it's our fault. Community representatives use the word broken like they've never read a dictionary, they act like mid tier characters need hella buffs, they question the state of the game every time they lose, with tons of hyperboles. Negatively is king in this community.

 

[B. Shazzy]

I disagree. The fact that NRS fixed the net code to such an extent that its online gameplay is the best in the fighting game business proves that NRS cares about balance and competitive gameplay. The majority of players who play online are not casual players but competitive players. Given the initial atrocity of the net code, I presume the cost involved for this repair must have been enormous. NRS should always be commended for overhauling the online gameplay. They care. If there is another patch and another season of ESL, there is no doubt they do care.

having a functional netcode is a requirement for any game, casual or competitive standard, in 2016. I agree they care about negative reviews which is why i said anything that broadcasts their game to potential customers in such a light will be adjusted, like op dlc. the problem is they care about not being seen as a "bad" game more than they care about being a good, competitive fg that the majority of the fgc could play. does that make sense?

also if nrs cared they would support more than one of their games at a time.

 

[trufenix]

If you read Daves post and think all those issues are from a man/team who is competent at their job...I don't know what to say.

Paulo plays with the balance of a game like it is his action figures.

Paulo made a game that dave doesn't like to play, that's all. It's super offensive and as evidenced by the people that actually play, it does a pretty good job at it. Meanwhile, this is about the 6th vague dismissive post from Dave calling out the fact NRS obviously doesn't want to make street fighter games.

I get that people want less set play and less damage and more buttons to press, and I'm for it, but lets not act like MKX is some digital chess match where every piece has an equal and opposite counter. It has about 5 (if we're counting variations) characters that are pretty convincingly top, about 8 that are inescapably bottom, and another 80 or so that get along just fine in the mid tier. Every single patch has brought us closer to a game wherere veryone can play, even if that game is mostly running across the screen and pressing buttons until the other guy messes up his block.

Where I come from that is fucking balanced. Way more so than Melee or Marvel or even SFIV.

 

[M2Dave]

@Tweedy , I am certain the 8 frames of lag in Street Fighter V will be addressed eventually. Remember that the game has not had an official balance patch, only minor bug fixes here and there. I would say the game is surprisingly balanced for having had no balance patches while Mortal Kombat X was a disaster on release day.

Paulo made a game that dave doesn't like to play, that's all. It's super offensive and as evidenced by the people that actually play, it does a pretty good job at it. Meanwhile, this is about the 6th vague dismissive post from Dave calling out the fact NRS obviously doesn't want to make street fighter games.

Aside from King Jr., I am the only person in the Cleveland scene who regularly plays the game while almost everyone else has quit in order to play Street Fighter V. I love Tremor, and I think I have adopted very well to the highly offensive nature of the game. Look up my matches on YouTube. I am strictly speaking out against the simplest offense available to fighting games, the safe 50/50 mix up. Any fighting game that lacks variety becomes stale, and Mortal Kombat X is certainly heading into that direction.

 

[Perdition]

All I ask for is more accountability from NRS. MKX has failed the fan but did not fail financially. Players dropped out at record rates, the scene seemed so scattered since no one could possibly understand this game let alone agree, NRS shit on the PC gaming fans, the "balance" has been all over the place, riddled with bugs that took way to long to fix, online sucked bad until the recentish netcode patch....where the hell is the accountability? Their best trait is their biggest weakness, community involvement. Yet regardless of how involved they are, NRS continues to not be very forthcoming and make knee jerk decisions based on fan reaction.

I do not want anyone to lose their job, I just want to see some maturity from this team.

I will not even go into their business model of releasing broken characters for sales purposes. Whether you agree with Dave or not in the past, he is 100% right in this thread.

 

[FrankOceansWaifu]

On the subject of transfering tools: cyrax, Takeda, Alien, Quan-chi, and more all have hard to blockables while they took away Cyber Sub's completely. Smh

Sub still has them

 

[FrankOceansWaifu]

Imo characters that were handled properly in patches:
Kitana, Quan, Kotal, Jason, Jax, Scorpion, Cassie, Jacqui, Kung Jin, Liu Kang, Reptile, Goro, Tremor

Characters that were handled badly in patches: Alien, Kung Lao, Sonya, Kenshi, Sub-Zero, Mileena, Takeda, Tanya, Bo, Leatherface, Predator, Shinnok, Kano, Cage, Erron Black, Ermac, Ferra/Torr, D'Vorah, Raiden, Triborg

To be fair to NRS, there are several great changes they have made, but imo most of the changes were questionable.

Jason is dumb now

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Jason is dumb now

Yeah, but compared to how he was before I wasn't confident that he would get out of the dumpster. So I guess my bias makes me more happy then it should.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Yeah, but compared to how he was before I wasn't confident that he would get out of the dumpster. So I guess my bias makes me more happy then it should.

Oh just wait for Jason buffs next patch.....

 

[trufenix]

@Tweedy , I am certain the 8 frames of lag in Street Fighter V will be addressed eventually. Remember that the game has not had an official balance patch, only minor bug fixes here and there. I would say the game is surprisingly balanced for having had no balance patches while Mortal Kombat X was a disaster on release day.

You call MKX a disaster for failing to accomplish in 5 years what it has taken Street Fighter 30 to accomplish. You ignore the year long beta SFV had or the year prior than that when it's alpha masqueraded as Omega mode. It has half the cast (many of whom have issues both + and -) many of whom only slightly different from the last game they were in. It forgoed every (literally every) other possible fighting game feature to deliver an (admittedly pretty good) experience, that still has comfortable top tiers and bottom tiers.

But how about the games that got developed and released the same way MKX did. The ones with new new engines (MvC3), big varied casts (Tatsunoko), or only got released on consoles (SFxT). How many of them were surprisingly balanced at launch? Zero. Most of them were never fixed.

Aside from King Jr., I am the only person in the Cleveland scene who regularly plays the game while almost everyone else has quit in order to play Street Fighter V. I love Tremor, and I think I have adopted very well to the highly offensive nature of the game. Look up my matches on YouTube. I am strictly speaking out against the simplest offense available to fighting games, the safe 50/50 mix up. Any fighting game that lacks variety becomes stale, and Mortal Kombat X is certainly heading into that direction.

Dude, I keep tabs. I'm from cc too. And I appreciate whatever torch you still carry for the city and the game, but this delusion that MKX (or NRS in general) is the purveyor of 50/50s and vortexes is nonsense. KoF exists. Marvel exists. Melee exists. Guilty Gear exists. Tekken exists. SF4 exists. All games where getting knocked down is often the end of your turn for a long fucking time.

MKX may not be SF5, but it is more balanced than Inj and MK9 on their best day, and better balanced than a ton of games that lots of people just shut up and play without calling the developers retards on their own streams.

 

[Rathalos]

NRS definitely needs to take a long hard look at how they handled MKX.
They really dropped the ball in a lot of areas.

The patching and DLC characters was not a good look IMO.

They patched too much, and made a lot of just dumb changes.
A few characters were handled very well, others were pointless destroyed, and others got a bunch of useless buffs that didn't really help them at all.