Discussion NRS Patching - Genuine Balance or Mere Tier Shifting?

[M2Dave]

Boon appears to be teasing a balance patch on Twitter. You can tell because the buffs and nerfs threads have resurfaced on TYM. I am obviously excited just as much as everyone else is. However, I would like to identify the flaws of NRS's patching in this thread. I am not going to call out anyone personally or ask that someone at NRS resign because of Alien. I would simply like to make the argument that as much as the patches attempt to balance the game, they shift tiers more so than anything else, with little to no changes to the meta game. The lack of balance and changes to the meta game can be attributed to the following two reasons.

1. A recurring error is over-normalizing top tier characters who have had success in tournaments or whom social media perceives to be overpowered, even if tournaments results indicate otherwise. About three patches ago the target was Quan Chi. Two patches ago the target was Shinnok. One patch ago the target was Tanya. The current target is of course Alien. While you personally disliked fighting some of the previous top tier characters of the game, ask yourself whether each character was normalized fairly and appropriately. Remember that the goal of a patch is to balance the top tier character, not punish him or her for his or her prior effectiveness so you can have revenge. To be to fair to NRS, I personally believe that the majority of the top tier characters were balanced correctly. Contrary to popular opinion, I think Tremor was balanced justly. Unfortunately, Tremor's balance is ultimately counterproductive when tools from prior top tier characters are removed while similar tools for some top tier characters are kept or transferred to other characters, which introduces my next point.

2. Another recurring error is removing tools from certain top tier characters while either keeping similar tools for certain other top tier characters or transferring them to already buffed characters. Currently, the most conspicuous example is Takeda's EX kunai. Kung Lao's EX hat spin used to be +27 on block (now +7), Quan Chi's EX rune used to be +15 on block (now -1 unless delayed), Shinnok's EX hell sparks used to be +24 on block (now +14), and Tremor's EX low stone shatter used to be +10 on block (now -5). Several other examples (i.e., Erron Black's EX sand grenade, Jacqui's EX up rockets, Liu Kang's EX bicycle kick, Tanya's EX tonfa toss, etc.) can also be mentioned. The point is that the frame advantage on all of those moves was rightfully reduced to prevent monotonous pressure, which also led to safe 50/50 mix ups for some characters. Takeda, who has received at least 20 buffs, managed to keep an advantage of +34 on the EX kunai, which lead to safe 50/50 mix ups. As a result, he quietly emerged as one of the game's super top tier characters. Takeda only represents one example, but I could list many more, particularly pertaining to Alien, Kano, Mileena, and Sonya. While Mileena is a rare exception to the rule, Alien, Kano, Sonya, and Takeda are super top tier characters who revolve around safe and rewarding 50/50 mix ups, a boring and stale meta game that has been observed for more than a year.

By the way, I am fully aware that top tier characters will exist as long as fighting games exist. I am not arguing against the nature of fighting games. I am merely arguing against tier shifting. Why do certain characters' tools get normalized or removed while certain other characters' tools are kept the same or buffed? Why is Kung Lao's EX spin +7 on block while Takeda's EX kunai are +34 on block? Why is Tremor's damage output normalized 10%-15% across the board while Kano does safe 50/50 mix ups in the corner that lead to 45%-50% combos? Why is Predator's zoning getting normalized while Mileena's zoning is getting buffed? Why are Kenshi's footsies and zoning average in this game when offensive options are powerful?

The next patch, if there is one, should focus on actually balancing the game, not tier shifting and tools transfer from one character to another.

 

[errormacro7]

The latter, Dave, the latter...

 

[Awkward Sloth]

All Edienians in this game will end up low tier by the end of the games life span.

Assuming there is another patch.

 

[SaltShaker]

Great post. I can't emphasize any more than I already have been. The issue is not patches, it is the way patches are handled. There should be a specific game rule, and any characters too far beyond or behind the rule are placed in the middle.

In a perfect world, all characters would be both unique and balanced. Since that is impossible, the aim is to make it as close to this as possible. There's no reason to delete CSZ with nerfs or buff Cutt Kano when everyone already knew he was the best version. There has to be more delicate balancing to get the most out of a balance patch. If not it will just be "here's the new super scrub char and the new broken one" which I'm sure no one wants.

 

[Eldriken]

So many valid points. You have to wonder how these decisions are reached. I'd seriously like to know how Alien's rekkas were passable despite Tanya's having just been nerfed not too long before KP2.

I mean, seriously. How? How does that happen? "Tier shifting" is absolutely the best term to use when discussing NRS' patch history. When tools are taken, they're often given to someone else, which is redundant.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

The way that Kung Lao was handled as a whole give me serious issues in several parts of the MKX's life cycle.

First it was "oh Tempest Lao isn't that great let's give him a plus 27 hat, that would be pretty dope". No. It wasn't pretty dope.

Then the block advantage kept getting taken away, and Tempest Lao was the one of the only top tiers of his time that didn't revolve around 50/50s, yet he was continually over rated. He was fine at +12.

Now Tempest Lao is at plus 7 and nothing needs to be respected if he wastes a bar on EX hat. Hat Trick sucks balls for too many reasons to count. Buzzsaw I actually think is Kung Lao's best variation, but the damage is so abysmal that you need to severely outplay your opponent. Not that needing to outplay your opponent is a problem, but when characters like Kano have plus on block 50/50s, and the most unsafe he ever gets is his zero on block overhead, Kung Lao not only needs to severely outplay his opponent, but has to severely outguess them. The other low tier characters suffer from similar issues of course.

What PL said on Pig's stream was dead on about Kung Lao. All they need to do is turn the dial and give him faster normals. Not a fucking +27 hat, it should have always been faster normals. Give Tempest Lao something that needs to be respected. Give Buzzsaw Lao better damage. Idk what can even be done about Hat Trick.

Why would you create a Kung Fu master and give him abysmal movement speed, and slow ass normals? Kind of like Kenshi, Kung Lao's basic design was flawed from the beginning.

 

[x TeeJay o]

Why can people armor right after doing a -25 combo string into a special? Why do I get punished for the opponent giving up their turn by them armor trapping me from an armored launcher? Why are jump kicks and punches postive? Why can characters do an ex move on block, INTO ANOTHER EX MOVE ON BLOCK while I'm trying to get my punish? Why don't characters auto correct when you do a crossover sometimes ? I just want the core game properly managed to be honest

 

[trufenix]

It's still an fgc fallacy that their needs are the ultimate priority of fighting game design. Games are made by humans, humans with opinions. Some of them don't want the same game we do.

 

[War_Machine_27]

So many valid points. You have to wonder how these decisions are reached. I'd seriously like to know how Alien's rekkas were passable despite Tanya's having just been nerfed not too long before KP2.

I mean, seriously. How? How does that happen? "Tier shifting" is absolutely the best term to use when discussing NRS' patch history. When tools are taken, they're often given to someone else, which is redundant.

Yes. I don't understand the logic of things like "X character special is too + on block, let's take it away from him but buff Y characters special to be just as + on block". The most glaring issue was definitely nerfing Tanya rekkas and then without skipping a beat putting it back in with alien.

 

[ATP2014]

Seems like whenever there is DLC involved, patches tend to shift tiers rather than balance. With no new characters in sight, this patch can hopefully address some of the more powerful/more underwhelming members of the cast.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Also, what would murdering Alien without adjusting Takeda, Sonya, Kano, Cage, etc.. even accomplish? Nothing.

 

[The_Tile]

Couldn't agree more with Dave for once. Literally all that's happened in this game is tier shifting. When you look at most characters individually the balance changes look pretty good for the most part.

However, if you were to look up some tier list threads and opinions from the community from before and after every patch you know somethings up.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I think they'll do better this time around. They've taken their time. Let the game breath for a few months. I just hope they've actually been paying attention to character forums and high level players. I have faith.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

A lot of characters in this game have dumb stuff. Down to the lower tiers. Buffing them without addressing their bs could be problematic.

 

[DarksydeDash]

On the subject of transfering tools: cyrax, Takeda, Alien, Quan-chi, and more all have hard to blockables while they took away Cyber Sub's completely. Smh

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Imo characters that were handled properly in patches:
Kitana, Quan, Kotal, Jason, Jax, Scorpion, Cassie, Jacqui, Kung Jin, Liu Kang, Reptile, Goro, Tremor

Characters that were handled badly in patches: Alien, Kung Lao, Sonya, Kenshi, Sub-Zero, Mileena, Takeda, Tanya, Bo, Leatherface, Predator, Shinnok, Kano, Cage, Erron Black, Ermac, Ferra/Torr, D'Vorah, Raiden, Triborg

To be fair to NRS, there are several great changes they have made, but imo most of the changes were questionable.

 

[vegeta]

Yes. I don't understand the logic of things like "X character special is too + on block, let's take it away from him but buff Y characters special to be just as + on block". The most glaring issue was definitely nerfing Tanya rekkas and then without skipping a beat putting it back in with alien.

These are all good points. As a scorpion and then Tanya player I mentioned that before and it irked me. Nerf scorpions FBRC advantage....too broken....but then Liu kang happened. Fast forward. Tanya. Oh man too broken nerf her. 2 times. -_-
K we can still manage. Naw rekkas are too strong we gotta get rid of that. Oh but give it to Alien. Meanwhile those of us this shifting happens to get pissed because then the supposed "balance" simply comes off as "we're gonna take this away from you guys since people are complaining too much and give it to someone else instead equal to or even better than it was originally"
At which point people then complain about the new character that has the original tool.

 

[TackyHaddock]

So many valid points. You have to wonder how these decisions are reached. I'd seriously like to know how Alien's rekkas were passable despite Tanya's having just been nerfed not too long before KP2.

I mean, seriously. How? How does that happen? "Tier shifting" is absolutely the best term to use when discussing NRS' patch history. When tools are taken, they're often given to someone else, which is redundant.

I was also very surprised by Alien and his tarkatan rekkas being introduced concurrently with the demise of Tanya. It was almost as if she was put to death and then reincarnated in a different and far less attractive form

 

[Harlequin969]

Despite the obvious tier shifting this game is really close to being well balanced because we have an obvious top 3 and a clear abysmal 3. Now I'm not gonna pertain to believe that all the variations can be balanced around viability. That's not gonna happen in one patch sadly. But every tier list has a huge mid range of characters that could be strong. NRS is very close to having a balanced MKX. It just needs to tune instead of over nerf/buff. It's almost there.

 

[Eddy Wang]

My advice hasn't changed.
Draw a goddamn line on the rules, then weight each character variation in this same line and see which characters are beyond that line and which characters are just way too far from it.

MKX meta is ruined by a lot of things that definitely could be patched through the game's life but NRS focused more on shifting tiers making some characters super dumb, and some super dumb characters super shitty.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Honestly when I think about it this is dead on. Since the game dropped there has been tier shifting, and in nearly every patch the tiers changed. As well as the abundance of tool switching, which just doesn't make any sense. The lack of consistency is atrocious. Why must Raiden be -32 on his overhead and have his option select removed, but Kano was gifted with safe AND plus 50/50s for the last few months. It's ridiculous across the board.

One thing I wanna say is that although I agree with your point about the takeda thing, he actually isn't +34 or whatever the frame data says. He's around plus 11 or 12, as he can't jail a f1 after they explode. Having played takeda I can say that they don't jail, and its surprising how much people don't know this. He's still stupid though.

Edit: after jumping into the lab to confirm my statement, the kunais will only jail from certain distances and in certain places, so if you are in f1 range, when you end in kunai there is a gap both before the kunais explode. Midscreen kunais seem to jail, but they dont in the corner.

 

[Harlequin969]

Honestly when I think about it this is dead on. Since the game dropped there has been tier shifting, and in nearly every patch the tiers changed. As well as the abundance of tool switching, which just doesn't make any sense. The lack of consistency is atrocious. Why must Raiden be -32 on his overhead and have his option select removed, but Kano was gifted with safe AND plus 50/50s for the last few months. It's ridiculous across the board.

One thing I wanna say is that although I agree with your point about the takeda thing, he actually isn't +34 or whatever the frame data says. He's around plus 11 or 12, as he can't jail a f1 after they explode. Having played takeda I can say that they don't jail, and its surprising how much people don't know this. He's still stupid though.

I think he's +34 if all three hit but that's never gonna happen. The fact that you have to RC the f1 to make it jail means it's not a perfect blockstring.

 

[REO]

It would be awesome if we can stop referring to low tier or bottom tier characters as "shit", "garbage", "useless", or "trash". Such harsh words for characters that are a bit over exaggerated on how "awful" they are. This is how characters end up getting unnecessarily steroid buffed and then we deal with reoccurring problems like Mileena, Takeda, etc. etc.

Can we relax with trying to make every character into a dumb S tier character and instead focus on trying to make every character a very strong mid tier character? I rather have characters balanced to or around Kung Lao and Leatherface level, rather than having everyone be as stupid as Demo Sonya or Piercing Mileena.

It would be such wasted effort and a serious let down if the next patch introduces "new S tier characters" such as Kitana or Bo' Rai Cho that end up dominating the game and ruling until the game's very last breath because "oops, maybe they shouldn't have gotten THAT buffed..." We would all be back at square one, just with new faces to replace the old ones.

Just my two cents.

 

[Invincible Salads]

So many valid points. You have to wonder how these decisions are reached. I'd seriously like to know how Alien's rekkas were passable despite Tanya's having just been nerfed not too long before KP2.

I mean, seriously. How? How does that happen? "Tier shifting" is absolutely the best term to use when discussing NRS' patch history. When tools are taken, they're often given to someone else, which is redundant.

i heard before that when they nerfed tanya, they were just covering all their bases or something like that....so aparently they had figured they had probably gone a bit too far...but did so just to be safe?

and no i don't think every character should be kung lao tier, maybe Hellfire Scorp tier or impostor shinnok tier? But personally i'd prefer if every character was the tier right below the monster trio (Mileena, Alien, Sonya)

soo bring those 3 down a notch and bring some of the lower guys up a bit.

 

[M2Dave]

From my perspective, the number one problem is currently the safe 50/50 mix ups. While 50/50 mix ups exist in lots of fighting game, when they are paired with very fast movement, advantageous EX special moves, powerful jumping attacks, and long range normal attacks, they become the primary focus of the game. I am afraid that 50/50 mix ups are so profoundly embedded in the game's core gameplay that this problem is virtually irreparable. Whichever character is left with the safest 50/50 mix ups will ultimately be one of the best characters mainly because of how easily you close space in this game.

Mortal Kombat X's safe 50/50 mix ups are Injustice's slow walking speeds/movement. No matter how hard NRS attempts to patch the games, the balance eventually breaks down as neither gameplay element, the safe 50/50 mix ups or the slow walking speeds/movement, should have existed in the first place.

I believe the 50/50 mix ups in Mortal Kombat X should have been the difficult-to-tech pre-patch throws (or command throws for those characters who have them) and meaty attacks. If you wake up and block, you get thrown. If you try to tech, you are punished by a combo. This concept is the basic foundation of the Street Fighter V mix up. The game generally rewards offense more so than defense, but playing defensively can still be rewarding too. In Mortal Kombat X, blocking for too long almost always gets you killed.