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NO MORE FREE CANCELS

Marlow

Premium
Premium Supporter
To me the cancels part of her game is what makes her interesting, so I'd rather they leave that part alone. I do like the idea of making them a bit more visible. I'd rather they balance her by scaling down the damage, and maybe changing B2 to a high just to make it a tiny bit harder for her to get in. I love that she's so dangerous when she's up close, to me that's exactly how a pressure/rushdown min-max character should feel. I just think they need to make it slightly more difficult for her to get in.
 
To me the cancels part of her game is what makes her interesting, so I'd rather they leave that part alone. I do like the idea of making them a bit more visible. I'd rather they balance her by scaling down the damage, and maybe changing B2 to a high just to make it a tiny bit harder for her to get in. I love that she's so dangerous when she's up close, to me that's exactly how a pressure/rushdown min-max character should feel. I just think they need to make it slightly more difficult for her to get in.
If b2 was also a high, that means she could be d2 KB’d for trying to get in at all. The current meta she has in place is she functions at two ranges full screen: when totally full screen, she only gets bf2 as a means of advancing, this is duckable and KB punishable for free. But once she works her way into mid range, b2 mid becomes a threat and the opponent can no longer duck safely. And let me remind you, b2 has slow af startup, smart players will whiff pokes and s1’s in b2 range because you can literally poke her out of the start up if she isn’t doing it at perfect max range. And at the same time, whiffing pokes will low profile dash punch if she attempts to mix it up.
 

Marlow

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If b2 was also a high, that means she could be d2 KB’d for trying to get in at all.

She could, but she could also just walk& block and work her way in if she wants to stay safe. I think the risk/reward would still be in her favor given how deadly she is up close. With her damage and pressure game she'd still be a really strong character. She would just take a little more patience to use.

To be clear though, I don't really care that much. Nerf or don't nerf, it doesn't make much of a difference to me.
 
She could, but she could also just walk& block and work her way in if she wants to stay safe. I think the risk/reward would still be in her favor given how deadly she is up close. With her damage and pressure game she'd still be a really strong character. She would just take a little more patience to use.

To be clear though, I don't really care that much. Nerf or don't nerf, it doesn't make much of a difference to me.
Lol I get where you’re coming from, but I don’t think you’ve been abused by d4 the way I have with jacqui. For example, Cassie’s d4 out spaces all of jacqui’s options on block, Except b2 and dash punch. And even then sometimes Cassie can out space b2. So if my b2 was really also a high, all characters with good d4’s would have to do is spam d4. I wouldn’t be able to b2 or bf2 in, and i would get whiff punished for trying any other buttons. So, if jacqui’s b2 became a high, they could essentially gain infinite spacing off spamming d4 if as you said my only option was walk. Is that not scrubby?
 

Marlow

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So, if jacqui’s b2 became a high, they could essentially gain infinite spacing off spamming d4 if as you said my only option was walk. Is that not scrubby?
I get what you're saying, but are you telling me that there's literally no other way to deal with a D4 other than having B2 be a mid?

it's fine though, it doesn't need to be a high. I'm just trying to come up with something reasonable that will still keep the fun parts of the character viable. To me what makes the most sense is making it slightly harder for her to get in, seeing as how she's pretty much the most deadly up close character in the game.
 
I get what you're saying, but are you telling me that there's literally no other way to deal with a D4 other than having B2 be a mid?

it's fine though, it doesn't need to be a high. I'm just trying to come up with something reasonable that will still keep the fun parts of the character viable. To me what makes the most sense is making it slightly harder for her to get in, seeing as how she's pretty much the most deadly up close character in the game.
I mean, go into the lab and see what her options against a good d4 on block are. They are quite limited outside of b2. Literally all other buttons whiff and she’s asking for a whiff punish. With b2 as a high, the game would become doing d4 every time jacqui gets within a one mile radius of you and then walking back and ducking to KB punish her for trying to advance you ever. Cassie will always get d4 on block off before jacqui can do anything in neutral due to its range. I honestly think it would dumb down her meta even further.
 

Marlow

Premium
Premium Supporter
I mean, go into the lab and see what her options against a good d4 on block are. They are quite limited outside of b2. Literally all other buttons whiff and she’s asking for a whiff punish. With b2 as a high, the game would become doing d4 every time jacqui gets within a one mile radius of you and then walking back and ducking to KB punish her for trying to advance you ever. Cassie will always get d4 on block off before jacqui can do anything in neutral due to its range. I honestly think it would dumb down her meta even further.
I'll take your word for it, although just looking Cassie's frame data she's -7 on block after a blocked D4, so I assume if you block the D4 you'd at least be able to walk forward a bit into the range of some of your other buttons, so if you blocked a 2nd D4 maybe you'd have more options? If the opponent keeps walking back eventually you'll push them to corner, which is good. And if the opponent is spamming D4 I assume you could call it out and punish it with a well timed jump in? I'm a novice when it comes to this stuff, this is mostly pure theory at this point.
 
I'll take your word for it, although just looking Cassie's frame data she's -7 on block after a blocked D4, so I assume if you block the D4 you'd at least be able to walk forward a bit into the range of some of your other buttons, so if you blocked a 2nd D4 maybe you'd have more options? If the opponent keeps walking back eventually you'll push them to corner, which is good. And if the opponent is spamming D4 I assume you could call it out and punish it with a well timed jump in? I'm a novice when it comes to this stuff, this is mostly pure theory at this point. And if you think about characters like cetrion with good d4’s and the ability to teleport out of the corner, there would be characters who can shut her down in every facet
Yes I could walk in on the d4, but if I’m walking in I’m opening myself up to her f4 or b2 if she understands that I have to walk in. The spacing it creates makes that -7 no biggie. It would just become kind of a cheesy mindgame between reading d4 on block into another move or d4 on block into walk back duck, and yea there are option selects to d4 but essentially any character with a good one could throw that out for free and I’m stuck having to make a read on THEM
 
I still don’t understand what anyone here who wants nerfs is talking about. The guy above is literally asking for NRS to put a cue in for when he should hit a button XD. First off, if you really think jacqui’s cancels are the problem, you don’t know shit about jacqui. F3, f1, and f31 as regular staggers are the issue with jacqui. Most of these are -2 on block, the window to reacting to that stagger is incredibly small as a result. That’s why jacqui can just f3 f3 f3 and people get caught. If anything, normalize these staggers to -3 or -4. Online in bad connections, yep, those tools are cheesy for jacqui. Like, I’m a jacqui main, and at this point I honestly hardly even cancel anymore because when I do I usually lose my turn and I give up my chance of hit confirming something. F31 stagger is jacqui’s issue. I always feel bad when I open people up doing f31 into f31, I could live without this ability. If you really get blown up by her cancels constantly you just haven’t fought her enough probably because you’re too busy here wining. I literally made another jacqui main rage quit the other day because I kept full combo punishing his feints
Dude chill. First I don't really "get blown" by her cancels because until today I only fought about 3 Jacqui online and won the sets so I really don't have a problem with her and I think she should get nothing nerfed. Second I talked about her cancels because that's the topic of this thread and her fast safe mid is too good to go, it's nice that she has it. Third I was following the flow of the thread and given you all are arguing about nerfing her I proposed a way to keep her as she is but add something that would make her feel less in advantage against other characters that have to meter burn to keep pressure.
 
I can't agree more. And for some people that say it is -2. Untill you realize it is a cancel and try to press a button she hits you with 9f mid then a 40 percent combo . He grab is so good she leans forward and if you duck and want to punish she leans back and then punish you. Her kicks are hard to punish. Her jump attacks are one of the best. Her anti air is one of the best. What else do you need?
 

Owerbart

I miss you
the biggest issue i have is the fact that already having an S+ tier mid, that tool can even get better with the cancel. Also unlike kabal seriously the cancels online between you distinguishing the cancel (almost the same animation) the problem is how easy huge damage she can get.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
She doesn’t have a long rang game and she doesn’t have OH/Low mixups. This is why her cancels do not cost meter. Her cancels are the only way she can open you up. Otherwise she has to whiff punish and block punish.
You ever played any characters besides scorpion or jacqui? Way this reads you don’t bro... also it’s not like it’s hard to get in on people in this game. Who cares she doesn’t have a “long range game”
 

RyuKazuya

Jesus is my Lord and Savior!
She doesn’t have a long rang game and she doesn’t have OH/Low mixups. This is why her cancels do not cost meter. Her cancels are the only way she can open you up. Otherwise she has to whiff punish and block punish.
I do not understand why it is necessary to have low oh mixup to open up opponents. I mean what about footsies??
 

musgrave000

Cyrax on rax on rax
Premium Supporter
You ever played any characters besides scorpion or jacqui? Way this reads you don’t bro... also it’s not like it’s hard to get in on people in this game. Who cares she doesn’t have a “long range game”
It's so hard to sit here and read the comments in this thread. This one specifically irks me. I think everyone in here calling for Jacqui nerfs have honestly never played her.

"Who cares that she doesn't have a long range game?" The people that play her. You make up for having nothing at far range, by having good tools up close. Simple as that. Your solid close range tools are your reward for having to Donkey Kong it past every god damn member of the cast braindeadingly (sweet new word) throwing shit at you EVERY single match.

I get it, you guys are frustrated. She's tough up close to find exactly when it's your turn, but I really don't think the cancels are what's bothering you. She has no range, she has no mix, she only has pressure. Take away this pressure and what are her strengths? One 9f mid.

I don't know everything about this game, I don't know what's best, but I can at least see how having good tools up close comes from not having any range. I don't think calling for nerfs for anybody (except Sonya) is the solution. We should be calling for buffs for the characters that need it. Leave the solid characters alone. Anyways, I need to turn off notifications for this thread. It's giving me a headache.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
It's so hard to sit here and read the comments in this thread. This one specifically irks me. I think everyone in here calling for Jacqui nerfs have honestly never played her.

"Who cares that she doesn't have a long range game?" The people that play her. You make up for having nothing at far range, by having good tools up close. Simple as that. Your solid close range tools are your reward for having to Donkey Kong it past every god damn member of the cast braindeadingly (sweet new word) throwing shit at you EVERY single match.

I get it, you guys are frustrated. She's tough up close to find exactly when it's your turn, but I really don't think the cancels are what's bothering you. She has no range, she has no mix, she only has pressure. Take away this pressure and what are her strengths? One 9f mid.

I don't know everything about this game, I don't know what's best, but I can at least see how having good tools up close comes from not having any range. I don't think calling for nerfs for anybody (except Sonya) is the solution. We should be calling for buffs for the characters that need it. Leave the solid characters alone. Anyways, I need to turn off notifications for this thread. It's giving me a headache.
Bro, characters in this game don’t have the ability to zone you out hard as hell. You are the one that needs to realize her up close game/damage far outweighs not being able to do shit full screen. Even if they did make her cancels cost d bar it honestly wouldn’t do shit as her stagger game is no joke. She just wouldn’t be able to breakaway in certain situations she could have before. Character is hella good don’t confuse yourself.

Another problem is (for me anyway) these cancels are completely unreactable online. When they start a string with a cancel, usually I have to just make a guess wether it’s a cancel or not and just go for a punish where the gap would be if it’s a cancel.
 
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musgrave000

Cyrax on rax on rax
Premium Supporter
Bro, characters in this game don’t have the ability to zone you out hard as hell. You are the one that needs to realize her up close game/damage far outweighs not being able to do shit full screen. Even if they did make her cancels cost d bar it honestly wouldn’t do shit as her stagger game is no joke. She just wouldn’t be able to breakaway in certain situations she could have before. Character is hella good don’t confuse yourself.
No, I get it. She's good. So the solution is...make her bad? Idk man, I just think a character with absolutely no range, should be terrifying up close.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
I am by no means a Jacqui player and hate her pressure like all the rest but:
Her cancels not costing meter isn't what actually makes her strong. Its that she has amazing mids. Let me explain.

Her cancels range from -6 to -2 and yes its strong but you can blow them up if you know what to do.
But she can do essentially the same thing by just staggering F3 which is -2 so she can still pressure the same or close to without them. Her F1, F12, F3, F31 are -2 on block and her B34 is +4.

Why I think she is good is her tools, her weakness Is supposed to be No projectiles but she has B2/B22/Dash Punch which are all unreactable and her B22 a mid high jails into the high making it not duckable and the dash punch requires you to not play footsie and crouch instead of move. Both are safe on block. Add to that she gets amazing damage & KB and has amazing pressure with the fastest mid in the game (9f).

She has many ways to open up the opponent, Staggers, Plus Frames, OH/Low, Number of hit mix off 9f mids that advance and beat out many buttons and footsie.

Making Faint Cancels cost bar won't do anything really because she is still top tier without them.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
No, I get it. She's good. So the solution is...make her bad? Idk man, I just think a character with absolutely no range, should be terrifying up close.
What I just said in that post is basically the proposed nerf wouldn’t do shit. She can still cancel when she needs and wouldn’t affect anything.
 

musgrave000

Cyrax on rax on rax
Premium Supporter
What I just said in that post is basically the proposed nerf wouldn’t do shit. She can still cancel when she needs and wouldn’t affect anything.
I got you man. I just think you're severely brushing off range. You're making it sound REAL easy to consistently have to get in on your opponent. To quote your initial response to Juggs "You sound like you only play x", and in this situation, you sound like you only play zoners. I only say this because you keep saying things like "Bro, it's not even hard to get in on your opponent in this game".
 

DeftMonk

Noob
I got you man. I just think you're severely brushing off range. You're making it sound REAL easy to consistently have to get in on your opponent. To quote your initial response to Juggs "You sound like you only play x", and in this situation, you sound like you only play zoners. I only say this because you keep saying things like "Bro, it's not even hard to get in on your opponent in this game".
You telling me its hard? What zoner keeps you out ala deadshot or lex luthor?
 

Inzzane_79

Oooohh Daaaammmn
Premium Supporter
You telling me its hard? What zoner keeps you out ala deadshot or lex luthor?
You want to tell me that against Skarlett (a good skarlett) it´s not hard to get in? And even when you are in she can teleport and you start from Scratch.

Nobody said it´s like injustice, they just said Jacqui has to work to get in against zoners
 

S+ Main

#BuffRaiden / https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ
There are so many ways to get around traditional footsies in modern fighting games making it so footsies is only relevant when both players chose to play it. For example the plethora of fwd advancing attacks that are usually safe like Jacqui dash punch, JC f3/f4, cassie f2/b2, big (+) boot moves.