New Yomi Tier List after The Big Patch 9/1+

[Enexemander]

Ok- can someone from Yomi who plays Kano explain why they think he is above Ferra/Torr and on the level of Reptile and Ermac? I really don't see it, unless you argue for his variations allowing counter picks - but that is pretty gimmicky

Comparing tools has value, but only in that it affects match-ups. Tier lists aren't about character tools directly. Tier lists are about match-ups.

What match-ups do you feel Kano loses that he should be lower, and why do you think he loses them?

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Legit question incoming.

If your character has a 50/50 that at ANY point in the match is able to use it, don't you have a 50/50 chance of winning that round then and there. Perhaps the argument is, "well it doesn't kill so you have to do that too many times and you can't always get 50/50 started."

If that is true then the point remains...if your character has a 50/50, it automatically limits how bad a matchup is because if you have good spacing AND get a chance to swing, you have a 50/50 chance of opening them up and possibly killing.

Am I a complete retard for thinking this? Again this is a legit question/talking point.

 

[Enexemander]

Legit question incoming.

If your character has a 50/50 that at ANY point in the match is able to use it, don't you have a 50/50 chance of winning that round then and there. Perhaps the argument is, "well it doesn't kill so you have to do that too many times and you can't always get 50/50 started."

If that is true then the point remains...if your character has a 50/50, it automatically limits how bad a matchup is because if you have good spacing AND get a chance to swing, you have a 50/50 chance of opening them up and possibly killing.

Am I a complete retard for thinking this? Again this is a legit question/talking point.

I think it comes down to opportunity to use the 50/50, and cost of guessing wrong (for both players).

Take Cutthroat Kano- He has 50/50s, but B1 practically hits on his toes so far as range. Therefore, you're not in danger of the 50/50 unless he's able to run right up on you. That keeps the (rather amazing) tool out of play if your opponent actively works against it. The trade-off is that the 50/50 is completely safe. Sidenote- most people that like the new Charge Up buff like it for the wrong reason. The only way it adds to Kano's game is to use an advancing string to jail into allowing Kano to use Charge Up and follow up with a guaranteed 50/50 attempt. This adds range to his 50/50, but it also adds risk it doesn't have normally, because you're constantly taking damage the whole time. If they guess right, you're taking a lot of damage to no benefit.

Take Raiden (all variations)- He has 50/50s, and tons of damage off them in the corner. BUT, without the OS (or absolutely insane reaction speed), his B2 is incredibly unsafe. Whiff or Block? Full combo punish town. So, while he has 50/50s that can help him win a match, they can hurt him just as much. It's the definition of a double edged sword.

So just having 50/50s doesn't automatically move a character up a tier based on luck. It's about how the 50/50 option affects both characters. That's why I don't think Raiden is amazing even though he has great 50/50 damage. His opponent also has great 50/50 damage, because Raiden effectively 50/50s HIMSELF while he coinflips.

 

[smokey]

Legit question incoming.

If your character has a 50/50 that at ANY point in the match is able to use it, don't you have a 50/50 chance of winning that round then and there. Perhaps the argument is, "well it doesn't kill so you have to do that too many times and you can't always get 50/50 started."

If that is true then the point remains...if your character has a 50/50, it automatically limits how bad a matchup is because if you have good spacing AND get a chance to swing, you have a 50/50 chance of opening them up and possibly killing.

Am I a complete retard for thinking this? Again this is a legit question/talking point.

50/50 you can just throw out at ANY point and give you a 50/50 chance of winning doesnt exist, but if it did yeah i dont see your statement being wrong. Something like War god will 50/50 you every time on the end of a blockstring and half the time you get punished and the other half you get a knockdown if you are truly flipping the coin and not trying to make a read or condition. Sonya on the other hand can 50/50 you every few seconds and be somewhat safe about it but you cant call her matchups easier because of that, half the time you are just doing blockstrings with no followup pressure?

 

[XxDark_]

Ok so I main Lao..yes he is a really good character...but S tier? HOW SWAY!?

 

[Zoidberg747]

Almost a perfect tier list, you just got the S and A+ tiers mixed up. But Haou fix for you

Lmfaooo of course

Spoiler

... except that it seems you forgot everyone is a thot in this world except for me xD but there's no shame in that tho cause it can't be helped ^_^

Shinnok is still extremely strong. Yes he got nerfed but he's still really good. It's like Tanya, she's been getting ONLY nerfs since she was released, not a single buff was given to her. And she doesn't need it. A character can be given multiple nerfs and still remain top tier Tanya and Shinnok are the best examples of that lol in my personal opinion they have him in the right place at S tier

Untrue. Delayed rekkas being safer on block was a huge buff that changed her game completely.

I agree with Shinnok still being S though. The thing is they nerfed a majority of the S tier so they are way more manageable than before but still better than a majority of the cast.

 

[rafaw]

Okay guys...
As far as Johnny Cage goes, his "d4/f2 mixup" is not that good. Block low, react to overhead. Punish accordingly. His selling point is pressure, not mix-ups. And his pressure might be 4th in the game behind Tanya, Kung Lao, and Jax.

Certainly not enough to be A+ cuz the damage isn't really there so if you even open them up, you arent taking a huge chunk of life.

That is, if you are saying A-List is the best variation...if not then you can just throw this tier list away.

I really doubt one can react to 15f! And even then, punish accordingly how? its safe and with skrc is plus.
IMO even when people start to get mu experience against Cage, he is still very good! Its not easy to defend against a good A list Cage, he can just mix a lot of things on you and be not just safe but plus while doing it.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

I think it comes down to opportunity to use the 50/50, and cost of guessing wrong (for both players).

Take Cutthroat Kano- He has 50/50s, but B1 practically hits on his toes so far as range. Therefore, you're not in danger of the 50/50 unless he's able to run right up on you. That keeps the (rather amazing) tool out of play if your opponent actively works against it. The trade-off is that the 50/50 is completely safe. Sidenote- most people that like the new Charge Up buff like it for the wrong reason. The only way it adds to Kano's game is to use an advancing string to jail into allowing Kano to use Charge Up and follow up with a guaranteed 50/50 attempt. This adds range to his 50/50, but it also adds risk it doesn't have normally, because you're constantly taking damage the whole time. If they guess right, you're taking a lot of damage to no benefit.

Take Raiden (all variations)- He has 50/50s, and tons of damage off them in the corner. BUT, without the OS (or absolutely insane reaction speed), his B2 is incredibly unsafe. Whiff or Block? Full combo punish town. So, while he has 50/50s that can help him win a match, they can hurt him just as much. It's the definition of a double edged sword.

So just having 50/50s doesn't automatically move a character up a tier based on luck. It's about how the 50/50 option affects both characters. That's why I don't think Raiden is amazing even though he has great 50/50 damage. His opponent also has great 50/50 damage, because Raiden effectively 50/50s HIMSELF while he coinflips.

Exactly. I believe that NRS put this many 50/50s in the game as a way of balancing it. High risk high reward 50s and low risk low reward 50s as well as a mixture of range, damage, resources, etc.

Essentially, this game comes down to getting the most opportunities to make your opponent guess. These are the high tier. Also these tend to have a safer 50/50.

But other characters like Kotal only need 1-2 turns and they can win. You can call it low tier but it's really just a different form of balance making him super viable but has to wait for that moment and guess right more often.

This, like it or not, is how NRS balanced MKX and it is balanced. Just not the way I would have preferred it. Oh well. Carry on

 

[Zoidberg747]

Okay guys...
As far as Johnny Cage goes, his "d4/f2 mixup" is not that good. Block low, react to overhead. Punish accordingly. His selling point is pressure, not mix-ups. And his pressure might be 4th in the game behind Tanya, Kung Lao, and Jax.

Certainly not enough to be A+ cuz the damage isn't really there so if you even open them up, you arent taking a huge chunk of life.

That is, if you are saying A-List is the best variation...if not then you can just throw this tier list away.

React to a 15f move?

Are you serious?

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

React to a 15f move?

Are you serious?

I really doubt one can react to 15f! And even then, punish accordingly how? its safe and with skrc is plus.
IMO even when people start to get mu experience against Cage, he is still very good! Its not easy to defend against a good A list Cage, he can just mix a lot of things on you and be not just safe but plus while doing it.

Read it. Whatever.

I rarely get hit with f2. I didn't mean punish f2. You can poke out of shit dude. It's not an infinite.

 

[Poto2222]

Ermahgerd, Johnny Cage doesn't have an infinite! He's so bad! Bottom 5 konfirmed!

 

[Zoidberg747]

Read it. Whatever.

I rarely get hit with f2. I didn't mean punish f2. You can poke out of shit dude. It's not an infinite.

When did we say its an infinite? lol.

The mixups between d4 and f2 is legit. Saying otherwise is like saying Smoke didnt have good mixups in MK9. He did the exact same thing as Johnny does now, poke you 50 times then when you finally try to block one he hits you with the overhead. I dont play Johnnys that much so I wont comment on tier placement, but saying the f2/d4 mixup isnt good is wrong.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

When did we say its an infinite? lol.

The mixups between d4 and f2 is legit. Saying otherwise is like saying Smoke didnt have good mixups in MK9. He did the exact same thing as Johnny does now, poke you 50 times then when you finally try to block one he hits you with the overhead. I dont play Johnnys that much so I wont comment on tier placement, but saying the f2/d4 mixup isnt good is wrong.

not good enough to place him A+

 

[rafaw]

Read it. Whatever.

I rarely get hit with f2. I didn't mean punish f2. You can poke out of shit dude. It's not an infinite.

What did you mean with Punish accordingly then? you cant poke out, f24 skrc is +11! And no one ever said its a infinite! Just that D4/F2 is a really good mix up

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

What did you mean with Punish accordingly then? you cant poke out, f24 skrc is +11! And no one ever said its a infinite! Just that D4/F2 is a really good mix up

you act like you can't poke out of his pressure. When I say punish according, punish what is punishable.

 

[smokey]

What did you mean with Punish accordingly then? you cant poke out, f24 skrc is +11! And no one ever said its a infinite! Just that D4/F2 is a really good mix up

f2 is 15+ frames startup while most pokes are 6-10 you can poke out after 11 or 1 into f2 if you make the call. Not to mention that unless you are frame perfect run cancelling and also point blank range against an appropriate height character for f2 to hit on the first frame, you can poke it after some cancels. Even at +11 if you went for f2 there is a 5-6 frame gap with PERFECT execution and spacing.

 

[Derptile]

Anything 15 frames or lower is not reactable by any sane person, so that argument is bullshit

On a side note I can see Raiden's B2 and block it most of the time on reaction :3

 

[Laos_boy]

Everyone sucks

Kitanas S+ tier

 

[Evil_Riu48]

Exactly. I believe that NRS put this many 50/50s in the game as a way of balancing it. High risk high reward 50s and low risk low reward 50s as well as a mixture of range, damage, resources, etc.

Essentially, this game comes down to getting the most opportunities to make your opponent guess. These are the high tier. Also these tend to have a safer 50/50.

But other characters like Kotal only need 1-2 turns and they can win. You can call it low tier but it's really just a different form of balance making him super viable but has to wait for that moment and guess right more often.

This, like it or not, is how NRS balanced MKX and it is balanced. Just not the way I would have preferred it. Oh well. Carry on

i don't think many people here will understand what you mean when you say "is how NRS balanced MKX and it is balanced. Just not the way I would have preferred it." i am 100% with you on this. i think is the lazy way to balance a game

 

[Enexemander]

I think it's more fun if people would give their reasoning for their opinions. It's not a voting thread, so chiming in with "I disagree with my main character's placement." without any extrapolation is pretty pointless. It's much more rewarding and interesting to read about WHY you think that is the case.

 

[Metzos]

Why everyone sleeps on Tremor?
Also Ermac is bottom 10 in my opinion

Wait, there are people who are sleeping on Tremor? If so, thas a new one.... About Ermac i probably agree as well. The character is way too fair for MKX, like Scorpion was for MK9, at least thats how i see it.


Regarding Goro, i dont believe he is bottom 5, let alone bottom 1.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

i don't think many people here will understand what you mean when you say "is how NRS balanced MKX and it is balanced. Just not the way I would have preferred it." i am 100% with you on this. i think is the lazy way to balance a game

I hear you.

What I mean is the Injustice mentality but to a new extreme.
Ed Boon: "We don't want to nerf the high tiers...we want to buff everyone so all have dirt!"

MKX is the game where dirt = 50/50 and semi infinite block pressure (only limited by either meter or stamina)

it is a very lazy way to balance a game. Bt with 90 fucking characters I can't blame them.

 

[Mortal Komhat]

If your character has a 50/50 that at ANY point in the match is able to use it, don't you have a 50/50 chance of winning that round then and there.

Goro is just outside of top 10. This tier list is completely wrong.

are you on powerful mood altering drugs because that is like a complete 180 than what you've been saying?

 

[Derptile]

People saying the OS nerf hit Raiden the most clearly haven't played Ermac.

Straight outa of High-A tier to bottom 10.

And Goro is secret decent tier now, no way is he bad anymore.

 

[IrishMantis]

I hear you.

What I mean is the Injustice mentality but to a new extreme.
Ed Boon: "We don't want to nerf the high tiers...we want to buff everyone so all have dirt!"

MKX is the game where dirt = 50/50 and semi infinite block pressure (only limited by either meter or stamina)

it is a very lazy way to balance a game. Bt with 90 fucking characters I can't blame them.

But when you look at the same people not just YOMI consistently place top 8 at majors and people consistently win their locals must prove in this you win with skill over guesswork for the most part