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New UMK3 Tier List? (update for 2012)

REO

Undead
The reason why they are called glitch jabs is because you are blocking the entire time you are attacking, even during the collision frames which is undoubtedly an unintended side effect of being able to cancel jabs with other attacks, ie, BL, RN, HK, LK and the canceling effect that a jab has on other leads into other attacking animation.. Kara jabs are actually improperly labeled, as kara means empty. A kara jab in SF would be when you jab without the intent of making contact, and instead use the animation for another purpose. I kara jab with say, Jax for example, to buffer fireballs and dash punches. I have no intention to make contact with those jabs. Intentionally connecting Run jabs with block canceling is not really kara jabbing, but that's what everyone calls it. I have always called glitch jabs "Defense Jabs" or "Def Jabs" for short, but it never caught on. From here on, maybe we can call them Def Jabs.

Also I was just looking at the thread Jugg posted, and I saw the gamemk post with collision boxes. I've never even looked at this thread before, or at least don't remember. Those collision boxes, while relatively serving their purpose, are highly inaccurate.
Someone needs to make a thread with labels that are more accurate for all the different kind of jabs. Also defense jabs sounds misleading if you give it to players who are rushing up close with block jabs. But defense jabs sounds good for player who like to stand in one spot and keep you out and force different approaches. We all need labels that are direct to the point so players can easily understand.
 

MIKECALDWELL

Kombatant
A kara jab is canceling one jab with something else. This cuts the animation in half resulting in a quick recovery. It's usually canceled with block so you can jab freely and quickly block anything. A glitch jab is standing in one spot doing multiple jabs while blocking. A running kara jab is doing a kara jab while running. You can also do a running glitch jab though, but it's still technically just a GJ.
I have a question regarding this. I posted about this before, but I'll repeat myself. I tested the method of cancelling my jabs with block, which you say is safe. What I did was change the button config to where the jab and block buttons were right beside each other so that I could use the slide method of cancelling my jabs. When I say slide method, I mean I'm sliding my thumb back and forth from the x button(jab) to the o button(block) on my ps3 controller. I had my buddy get at the opposite end of the screen with kabal and do several dashes. Why didn't I block any of the dashes while I was cancelling my jabs with block if they are safe?
 

Shock

Administrator
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Founder
O.G.
Run Jabs - Canceling jabs with the run button
aRun Jabs - Advancing with Run while canceling jabs
Block Jabs - Canceling jabs with block
abJabs - A combination of a and Block Jabs
Def Jabs - Stationary cycling of Jabs while holding block and/or defending throws and sweeps

Anything else? Also better designations are appreciated.
 

Shock

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O.G.
I have a question regarding this. I posted about this before, but I'll repeat myself. I tested the method of cancelling my jabs with block, which you say is safe. What I did was change the button config to where the jab and block buttons were right beside each other so that I could use the slide method of cancelling my jabs. When I say slide method, I mean I'm sliding my thumb back and forth from the x button(jab) to the o button(block) on my ps3 controller. I had my buddy get at the opposite end of the screen with kabal and do several dashes. Why didn't I block any of the dashes while I was cancelling my jabs with block if they are safe?
If you are releasing block at any time, you will be vulnerable for at least 3 frames.
 

MIKECALDWELL

Kombatant
If you are releasing block at any time, you will be vulnerable for at least 3 frames.
He hit me with every damn dash he did, so they seem pretty useless to me. I'm very proficient at cancelling my jabs, but I primarily use it for the purpose of shortening the animation. I guess he was hitting me everytime I slid my thumb off of block to the jab button, which makes me feel like there are more vulnerable frames than invulnerable. It seems like the best way to use any of these jabs is to advance while throwing out a few stationary glitch jabs every few steps you take.
 

NoDoubt

nasty
He hit me with every damn dash he did, so they seem pretty useless to me. I'm very proficient at cancelling my jabs, but I primarily use it for the purpose of shortening the animation. I guess he was hitting me everytime I slid my thumb off of block to the jab button, which makes me feel like there are more vulnerable frames than invulnerable. It seems like the best way to use any of these jabs is to advance while throwing out a few stationary glitch jabs every few steps you take.
if u do right it works
 

REO

Undead
Run Jabs - Canceling jabs with the run button
aRun Jabs - Advancing with Run while canceling jabs
Block Jabs - Canceling jabs with block
abJabs - A combination of a and Block Jabs
Def Jabs - Stationary cycling of Jabs while holding block and/or defending throws and sweeps

Anything else? Also better designations are appreciated.
What about completely cancelling jab animations with specials? Like Jade for example could do arun or abjab and cancel the next immediate frame after contact with glow for maximum possible advantage. Every thing else seems good so far.
 

Shock

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O.G.
He hit me with every damn dash he did, so they seem pretty useless to me. I'm very proficient at cancelling my jabs, but I primarily use it for the purpose of shortening the animation. I guess he was hitting me everytime I slid my thumb off of block to the jab button, which makes me feel like there are more vulnerable frames than invulnerable. It seems like the best way to use any of these jabs is to advance while throwing out a few stationary glitch jabs every few steps you take.
It doesn't sound like you are holding block long enough though. If you tap block for even 1 frame you will get three frames of block I believe. If you release it one frame and press again, you will be vulnerable for 3. Again this might be off a frame or two and it's basing on it on the absolute minimum amount of time between presses. There has to be some level of intent and anticipation, block jabs are not freebies and do require skill.
 

Shock

Administrator
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Founder
O.G.
What about completely cancelling jab animations with specials? Like Jade for example could do arun or abjab and cancel the next immediate frame after contact with glow for maximum possible advantage. Every thing seems good so far.
I think that falls under the blanket of Jab Canceling. It's not really a technique that is discusses since it's so obvious, and canceling jabs, JKs and JPs are instant in MK, unlike other games where a certain duration of animation must complete.

For example in SF, it's not easy to cancel an attack into a special without the entire move happening, but I think if you cancel before the contact frame you can. In the Vs Series for Capcom, canceling normals was made a lot easier. An example of kara jabs in SF would be for Gief, performing an attack to keep him on the ground for a 720 Super, if a walk up 720 isn't feasible, for MK, a kara jab would be performing a jab with say, Reptile, to entice movement, and instantly canceling to a forceball. It's more a fake out in MK than a utility.
 

MIKECALDWELL

Kombatant
It doesn't sound like you are holding block long enough though. If you tap block for even 1 frame you will get three frames of block I believe. If you release it one frame and press again, you will be vulnerable for 3. Again this might be off a frame or two and it's basing on it on the absolute minimum amount of time between presses. There has to be some level of intent and anticipation, block jabs are not freebies and do require skill.
I hit block long enough to cancel the jab. Any longer and the block animation would come out, which is not what we want right?
 

Shock

Administrator
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O.G.
Like shock said, there is a moment where you not hitting block so they're not perfectly safe. If there isn't a moment when you're not hitting block then you're doing IGOTBASS style jabs.
To make it clear, the stationary defense jabs are completely invulnerable. You can block any attack and defend throws from the side you are on when starting, but on cross up jumps you still can be thrown if you don't compensate. Running, jabbing, blocking, has openings, and the best time to catch someone coming in is on the frame they jab when advancing. To perform seamless running with actual advancing, jabbing and cancel by blocking, seems virtually impossible to not have at least some incongruent frames. This will result in 3 frames of pain consistently.
 

REO

Undead
I think that falls under the blanket of Jab Canceling. It's not really a technique that is discusses since it's so obvious, and canceling jabs, JKs and JPs are instant in MK, unlike other games where a certain duration of animation must complete.

For example in SF, it's not easy to cancel an attack into a special without the entire move happening, but I think if you cancel before the contact frame you can. In the Vs Series for Capcom, canceling normals was made a lot easier. An example of kara jabs in SF would be for Gief, performing an attack to keep him on the ground for a 720 Super, if a walk up 720 isn't feasible, for MK, a kara jab would be performing a jab with say, Reptile, to entice movement, and instantly canceling to a forceball. It's more a fake out in MK than a utility.
Every thing sounds good them. Now all we need is the UMK3 terms in the general guides updated or a new thread be made addressing every thing.
 

Shock

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Founder
O.G.
The only time just tapping block will result in a block is with either luck, or supreme timing, generally stemming from patternistic counters. Generally, you gotta hold it at least somewhat.
I hit block long enough to cancel the jab. Any longer and the block animation would come out, which is not what we want right?
 

Shock

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O.G.
Every thing sounds good them. Now all we need is the UMK3 terms in the general guides updated or a new thread be made addressing every thing.
I will update them on UMK when I get a chance, and I will include the previous incarnations of the names in the descriptions.
 

Shock

Administrator
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O.G.
The only time just tapping block will result in a block is with either luck, or supreme timing, generally stemming from patternistic counters. Generally, you gotta hold it at least somewhat.
This is the def jab section from UMK:

All Defense Jabs:

To explain the tactic, the player is semi-permanently holding Block after starting the cycling of either high or low jabs, and in many cases is also holding down (to prevent being swept or the few low hitting moves in the game) and/or back (to prevent being thrown. This is an "all defense" attack pattern. We can call them "Def Jabs" for short, instead of Kara, because they aren't the same thing. During this animation, sweeps are blocked from a standing position since the character is locked that way, and they cannot perform moves like a Teleport Punch, Spear, Spin, Wave Punch, etc, but they can do charge moves like the Sai Shot, Cannon Ball, Bike Kick, Ground Pound, and simultaneous button press moves like the Slide or Leg Grab. Again, this is if they are committing to holding Block.

The player often times cannot jump over the jabbing character, even if they don't have a particularly good anti air move that can be done quickly after releasing block, like Kabal's Spin for example, but the active factor is the that the punches are constantly throwing a wall of collision in front of them in short intervals, so in order to clear the jabs you have to be far enough away on the jump to not be hit on the way up, but you will usually land so you are between the character and their jab collision, and get pushed back into the jabs anyway.

The best thing to do against the glitch jabs is repeatedly sweep the tip of the jabs from as far away as possible to make the character block and enough of this will cause them to change things up. Remember, during a sweep the collision box of the character is changed from being a thin rectangular box in the center of the sprite, into a box that is the entire surface area of the entire sprite's max dimensions. Players most often notice this while being swept during a projectile or a roundhouse when the sweep has "extra range." It's always like that, it's just more blatant the further the reach.

You can try to Kara jab against them to just stop the animation and guarantee you punishment safety, but Vs a character like the Female Ninjas, or Kabal, it is difficult to get in close enough without just blocking yourself and not interrupting the Def Jabs. Remember, vs any character, your advance can be vulnerable, so you have to attack with the anticipation you may be countered. But just as you are vulnerable, so are they, and more so because their best reward also has the highest risk.

Vs a character like Kabal you also have to worry about the spin, which can beat out a sweep attempt before it happens. After one or two of these sweep attempts, they will most likely attempt a spin on a wakeup whether it's blockable or not due to the anticipation of the player being frustrated at not being able to land positive contact at all and only achieving chip damage. Most importantly, always be ready to block because the Spin can benefit from random usage in this situation more than usual. Kabal is one of the most commonly used characters to abuse this tactic because the suddenness of the Spin complements it so well.

You can also just "stand there and wait" until your opponent gives up and comes in and try counter, however if they are ahead on energy, they will most likely let the time run as long as possible if they are fully committed to the tactic, since you are forced to attack. Your goal should be to get ahead on damage even just slightly to force stupid mistakes. Running in and trying to counter kara jab, or doing the tactic yourself generally leads to minimal success, so the max distance sweeps are you best bet. A blocked sweep from max distance is the best bet.

Getting in closer with ducking LKs works better with Sonya, Kung Lao, perhaps the Robots or even Sheeva, but you really want to create distance to prevent from being punished. A character like Mileena can punish a blocked sweep with a Roll for example, and a Teleporter can come out on the other side and pressure you to the wall.

You can fake a rush and move back, to bait a walk but they will often jump away with a fireball, which is a good time to connect something like a teleport punch or rush in and hit a HK if Kabal does an air fireball, but watch for the Spin after if you rush on his landing. If you jump back, also watch for the Spin while you're in the air, so it's better to use a character like Smoke or Ermac if you're going to attempt jump back strategies so you can teleport behind a Spin, and also Teleport Punch (and punish) Kabal jump backs after Def Jabs are abandoned periodically to mix it up.

A well timed backward JK can counter the Spin, along with a JP starter, but this is not a fool proof method. A far away jump will at times bait a Spin attempt, which is very often blockable since you will land approximately at the same time the Spin will connect at a near full screen attempt, or it will go right under you, so watch for a follow up Spin, or a revert to the Def Jabs.

If you gain significant advantage against this tactic during the match, watch for random cross up throw attempts that are easily countered by an uppercut. This is generally done to throw you off from the Def Jabs and most likely they will revert to it the next round.

Unblockable moves like the Sheeva Ground Stomp, Jax Ground Pound, Cyrax Bombs, or unduckable moves like the Forceball, all hinder the usage of the tactic to some extent due to forced positioning. Depending on the character using the Def Jabs, will dictate the best character to counter with. It's also important to experiment with the entire roster as much as possible. Knowing how to play as a character will help you learn how to play against a character.

Always remember your opponent doesn't necessarily have to be holding Block during Def Jabs and this means they can do special moves during that time. A good test once again, is the sweep, so if they block it standing, they are most likely committing to the tactic, but if they aren't, you will get free sweeps against them unless they are good enough to skillfully Blue Block the sweeps.

Apply these tactics to other characters you may see use this, like Nightwolf, the Female Ninjas, Liu Kang, and Stryker, remember the properties of their special moves, and the punishability as well.
 

NoDoubt

nasty
Like shock said, there is a moment where you not hitting block so they're not perfectly safe. If there isn't a moment when you're not hitting block then you're doing IGOTBASS style jabs.
u dont slide a finger back n forth 2 do block jabs thats not right.
 

MIKECALDWELL

Kombatant
u dont slide a finger back n forth 2 do block jabs thats not right.
You're not telling me anything. You just say that's not right. Either you don't really understand what I'm saying or you feel like your method is a big secret and you don't wanna talk about it.
 

NoDoubt

nasty
You're not telling me anything. You just say that's not right. Either you don't really understand what I'm saying or you feel like your method is a big secret and you don't wanna talk about it.
u said u set block n jab next 2 eachother on u controller and u used thumb to slide back n forth to do it. and u got spun sometimes from across the screen. 1 finger is supposed to hold block down while another jabs. idk what controller ur usin tho. the method is on umk.com, this thread, the kara jab thread, its everywhere and u do it VS me on xbox fine lol so idk
 

Shock

Administrator
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O.G.
Found the pass for the editor, I will go through and modify terms
 

MIKECALDWELL

Kombatant
u said u set block n jab next 2 eachother on u controller and u used thumb to slide back n forth to do it. and u got spun sometimes from across the screen. 1 finger is supposed to hold block down while another jabs. idk what controller ur usin tho. the method is on umk.com, this thread, the kara jab thread, its everywhere and u do it VS me on xbox fine lol so idk
Holding block while jabbing is not what we're talking about. We were talking about canceling our jabs with block while advancing and being safe at the same time. I can't do stationary glitch jabs with the same hand. I have to change block the the left trigger for coordination reasons. I've never used these against you bc I can't do them bc I have to have block on the right and run on the left. The only thing I've used against you was cancelling my jabs with lk, which is what I got used to in MK2.
 

NoDoubt

nasty
u still have 2 hold block while u do any jab, single, double, hundreds. u let go of both jab and block when u advance in (run) and ur always vulnerable when ur running forward. I couldnt use 1 finger 2 block jab while running, it wouldnt work right. I cant tap both at the same time, or slide between the 2 buttons using a thumb, it wouldnt be effective.