New Balance Patch Podcast featuring m2dave, P2W, REO, and Slips

[Ragnarök Tyr]

Reasonable People: "Nothing too bad. Just put a gap in that cancel or something."

Some: "Are you F****** kidding me? No! Then He/She loses their pressure and is just useless!"

Reasonable People: "I mean, you could just cancel into a block? Bait their armor or their back dash and punish accordingly. Then they get conditioned. You know...Make a read?"

Some: ".............Shut up!"

 

[Braindead]

As entertaining as watching The Passion of The Kytinn is, I have a question:

Isn't all character balancing, at least to some degree, considered tier shifting? If you make one character worse and another better, obviously they will switch places, right?

Not in a perfect world. In a perfect world you want all the matchups to be 5-5. If you nerf the top tiers and buff the bottom ones moderately you'll end up having everyone in the same tier (a truly balanced game). That way you're not tier-shifting/replacing tiers.

In our world that should be the aim. Nerf the top tiers we have so that their matchups become mostly even, and buff the low tiers to become the same. Even if you nerf the top tiers too much, but don't touch the high tier characters like Kotal and Jax and D'vorah, they will become the new top 5. They might be a bit annoying but they can be handled fairly well. Their tier will only shift because their MUs against the current top tier will probably go from losing to winning. If that is all that happens, it's totally fine because they're much closer to the rest of the cast than Alien and Mileena and co right now.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Just wanna kinda talk about what was said from 1-12 min. So far i have herd 3 points repeated.

Mobility is a problem. Run into several options and they should not have a jump out of run option. they said it creates to much mind games.

Lack of AA's is a problem... This i agree 100%

Plus anything should be +5 and no more... 100% agree ill talk more on this



, Mixups need to be toned down, cant remember but it seemed it was unanimous agreement in that cast, that Mixups are not the problem, but Fast mobility and long reaching moves into them or Cancel pressure into guess game is what they feel is the problem.

Now when you look at it that way and take it down to that level i agree fully that yes it does make the game boring when they have that level of 20+ or anything that has that much Playground coverage. like almost fullscreen mixup game, or Run cancel into plus frames that are obnoxiously plus i do agree it should be made to only plus 5 oin block. so we can have mor eoptions other than Block and pray we guess right.


So what i got from this is some of the top players feel the core game mechanics will not get addressed. i Say if they truley want this fixed, come into NRS with your connections and have a good pitch for it. Yes we need balance changes for some to slightly be toened down like alien or Mileena or Tekada or Ermac BS glitches. but we also need Buffs for the rest and would be nice to address some of the core mechanics.


What i don't agree with is that some actually think the game has died. that is more of a personal opinion, and there are millions still playing and having fun. Yes with any game there will be a few thousand that do get board of playing the same game every day. thats natural. but for some, they can simply, play a different character, or use a different variation. or look forward to changes in the game, aditional features, or possibly new characters.

I know that NRS has really fucked up before by listening to some individuals on 3-29-2016 for me. And they did shit like take some things that needed to be taken like: Cyrax Ture Loopable reset and CSZ's Loopable unarmorable HTB loop. that shit was to far, but then they went farther intentionally becaus eof others talking into their ears or by accedent. it was more so a "just in case) these two become very op. and I think that is the worst thing you can possibly do in balancing. Of course with any community we have the very obnoxious hateful members that want any other character nerfed to the ground for whatever reason they have. But we should always take careful consideration and a long period of time to make big changes.


TYhe only thing i dissagree on with the podcast:

Some said its been to long for a patch. i say Nope its been just long enough. i think 6-7 months is how long they should wait to see how good tools are, and if there is truly broken moves. Some games swear by this method and they seemed to do just fine.

But my summary and conclusion is: i actually agree with Reo and M2dave i don't want Defensive options taken away. this idea to remove Armored launchers is kinda salty at the core and does more harm than good:

i think the best idea is to make Block Breaker 1 bar and buff universal D2's as well as Nerf overzealous JIP's and JIK's.



@Darth-Nero there you go, summery has been made

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Real truth, it is Impossible for TYM to talk about Game Mechanics in a healthy and productive way!

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Reasonable People: "Nothing too bad. Just put a gap in that cancel or something."

Some: "Are you F****** kidding me? No! Then He/She loses their pressure and is just useless!"

Reasonable People: "I mean, you could just cancel into a block? Bait their armor or their back dash and punish accordingly. Then they get conditioned. You know...Make a read?"

Some: ".............Shut up!"

Yes like they are actually playing a fighting game. Cage's offense turns into a one player game for like 10 seconds whenever he touches you on hit or block lmao.

 

[DirtySanchez]

Personally i would like run cancels to be completely removed from the game because it's just a dumb idea, it does nothing else but reward players who can not play neutral and just want to win by repeating memorized training mode sequences. But i know thats not going to happen and for some reason i dont think we will see the whole run cancel jailing thing get removed either, it would piss off way too many people that spent alot of time in training learning how to do it frame perfect. I think what would make this whole shit alot less annoying is changing the stamina system slightly, people should not recover any stamina during attack animations such as special moves, throws or any attack really. Run cancel spam into a tick throw and back into the same run cancel spam cause stamina is back to full is just not right. I just dont like the idea of getting punished for blocking in a game where almost everything is a 50/50. you had the chance to hit me but i blocked it, now it should be my turn.

On a side note, having to go back to neutral in order to regain your stamina would also slow down the pace of the game, cant just run up to someone with a quick 50/50 and keep pressuring them because if you get hit with an armored launcher or get punished on a yolo guess, you wont have stamina to break which just adds another form of meter management to the game.

I know the idea of more neutral less random bullshit guessing and free pressure might scare some of you, but trust me on this, neutral is the best part of fighting games.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

If this game becomes stale as it is right now, it will age fast, now matter what character gets stronger or weaker tho.

I agree with You, and can see people with wider perspective can see that as well, but from business point of view I think they already closed this project. This game may need as much attention as SFIV required but we all know how deep NRS's support is towards their products. Its not as simple as removing dash cancel that was in MK9 and game was less dynamic. A lot of aspects of the game would require modification and that would require a lot of resources and I dont really see that happen.

 

[Santa_Destroyer]

Makes sense to me.

It low profiles lows, kotal's d3, dualist's low fireball. Working as intended? I doubt it.

 

[REO]

Let me start off by saying that I enjoyed the podcast and I really like the fact that known names are willing to go on record and admit that some of the offense in this game is broken. That being said, if an unknown person posted this, they would have been torn to shreds and told to get good lol.

The YouTube comment section says otherwise, lol.

 

[GLoRToR]

slight normalizations should always be the way to go. top tier: take one good thing away, low tier: add one good thing. see how it plays out. if it does, keep it, if not, repeat the process. otherwise you will indeed just be tier shifting.

That's called push-and-shove and Blizzard used to do it 10 years ago. It's not good. Base rules need to be set and then all characters should adhere to it on the base line, and then deviating abilities need to be counterbalanced by an equally glaring weakness in comparison to how advantageous the deviation is.

 

[THTB]

B1 breh

The hitbox is on the tongue, but the hurtbox is still above it. Not very good. Plus it's slower than d2.

 

[Gengar]

p2w being a part of this means I will not be watching. There is nothing of value that kid brings to the community, he is rightfully banned from here, and should be exiled entirely. disappointing to see that top players choose to associated with such a scum bag.

 

[coolwhip]

Slips is on? I'm listening to this...

 

[juicepouch]

p2w being a part of this means I will not be watching. There is nothing of value that kid brings to the community, he is rightfully banned from here, and should be exiled entirely. disappointing to see that top players choose to associated with such a scum bag.

did you copy/paste this from the comment on the youtube video? In any event, what is it that you hate so much about p2w?

 

[THTB]

p2w being a part of this means I will not be watching. There is nothing of value that kid brings to the community, he is rightfully banned from here, and should be exiled entirely. disappointing to see that top players choose to associated with such a scum bag.

Instead of turning the cheek, you should watch anyway. You'll likely be surprised.

 

[Skylight1]

Can we just say Necromancer Shinnok should get some love?

 

[Gengar]

did you copy/paste this from the comment on the youtube video? In any event, what is it that you hate so much about p2w?

that was my comment on youtube as well. 2 different avenues with different audiences, i want my opinion to be heard on both.

p2w is hands down the most toxic player i think this scene has seen. he has no respect for other players and his attitude is terrible. He is banned here for a reason.

The particular instance that solidified my hate for him was his behaviour at combo breaker 2013. His poor sportsman ship and attitude toward his fellow players caused him to be laughed out of the venue because no one cared to listen to him talk shit and complain when he lost.

Pretty sure he also had the audacity to try to talk shit about GGA Hahn on twitter when Hahn is an absolutely outstanding dude. It was great watching his Cyrax body p2w and then captain cancer went home.

 

[juicepouch]

that was my comment on youtube as well. 2 different avenues with different audiences, i want my opinion to be heard on both.

p2w is hands down the most toxic player i think this scene has seen. he has no respect for other players and his attitude is terrible. He is banned here for a reason.

The particular instance that solidified my hate for him was his behaviour at combo breaker 2013. His poor sportsman ship and attitude toward his fellow players caused him to be laughed out of the venue because no one cared to listen to him talk shit and complain when he lost.

Pretty sure he also had the audacity to try to talk shit about GGA Hahn on twitter when Hahn is an absolutely outstanding dude. It was great watching his Cyrax body p2w and then captain cancer went home.

Ah! I see

I have nothing but good things to say about Han as well, all of GGA has always been cool to me when I've gotten out there

 

[M2Dave]

that was my comment on youtube as well. 2 different avenues with different audiences, i want my opinion to be heard on both.

p2w is hands down the most toxic player i think this scene has seen. he has no respect for other players and his attitude is terrible. He is banned here for a reason.

The particular instance that solidified my hate for him was his behaviour at combo breaker 2013. His poor sportsman ship and attitude toward his fellow players caused him to be laughed out of the venue because no one cared to listen to him talk shit and complain when he lost.

Pretty sure he also had the audacity to try to talk shit about GGA Hahn on twitter when Hahn is an absolutely outstanding dude. It was great watching his Cyrax body p2w and then captain cancer went home.

I have known P2W personally for many years. I agree that he has definitely exhibited characteristics of poor sportsmanship and traits of a sore loser in the past and sometimes he still does. However, several other players have exhibited similar behavior, yet they are adored by the community. The reality is that P2W has supported the Cleveland fighting game scene for various years. He single-handedly ran Console Combat for many years, dedicating time, effort, and money without asking for anything in return. He is not this toxic person that some people in the community make him out to be. Besides, when GGA Hahn beat me with Cyrax at Console Combat a while ago, I complained about Cyrax too. Who cares? Hahn knows I respect him as a player.

Also, the reason he is permanently banned from TYM is because certain moderators and administrators have personal vendettas. All the drama and feuds that some individuals have caused throughout the years at TYM, you cannot possibly look me in the eyes and point to P2W as the worst offender.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

Let me start off by saying that I enjoyed the podcast and I really like the fact that known names are willing to go on record and admit that some of the offense in this game is broken. That being said, if an unknown person posted this, they would have been torn to shreds and told to get good lol.

Not torn to shreds, just not seen! Myself and other key players in the Australian MKX scene spoke about this just after Evo and shared some very similar opinions.

First hour is about EVO and our local tournament, more meta discussion about 1hr in.

 

[Gengar]

I have known P2W personally for many years. I agree that he has definitely exhibited characteristics of poor sportsmanship and traits of a sore loser in the past and sometimes he still does. However, several other players have exhibited similar behavior, yet they are adored by the community. The reality is that P2W has supported the Cleveland fighting game scene for various years. He single-handedly ran Console Combat for many years, dedicating time, effort, and money without asking for anything in return. He is not this toxic person that some people in the community make him out to be. Besides, when GGA Hahn beat me with Cyrax at Console Combat a while ago, I complained about Cyrax too. Who cares? Hahn knows I respect him as a player.

Also, the reason he is permanently banned from TYM is because certain moderators and administrators have personal vendettas. All the drama and feuds that some individuals have caused throughout the years at TYM, you cannot possibly look me in the eyes and point to P2W as the worst offender.

I am unaware of his history in the ohio scene, nor is it super relevant to me, but just because I dont place value on that doesnt mean others have to do the same. Years of friendship doesnt go away with a few outbursts, i get that. But I dont have that experience with him and I absolutely cannot stand him.

In terms of TYM offenders, i dont think hes the 'worst' but I also think that this is the internet and anything goes. I hate the 'safe space no name calling' TYM rules that mods have tried putting in place. I love the shit talking on here. But his behavior at events is terrible. And its his in person behavior that makes me not like him. I know everyone can get salty from time to time, but most can keep their cool and will at minimum walk away if they cant. but p2w loves to sit there and run his mouth, excessively, and it crosses a line. We all love the game together, there is no need for such hostility. And the combo breaker crowd showed him that by laughing him out of the venue. Ill admit that I only attend Chicago tournaments, but that is the absolute worst display of sportsmanship I have ever seen and no one has come even close to matching that except Noel Brown (thuggery) throwing punches over Marvel.

 

[SylverRye]

By the way some people speak here, what they defend and what they think some of these characters need, i wouldnt be surprised if this is their first fighting game... or if all they play are nrs games and are used to being spoon fed plus frames, 50 50s and easy offense. Geez

 

[lm Tweakk]

Who do I gotta fuck to get rid of some of these 50/50's?

 

[MadeOfMetal]

I have known P2W personally for many years. I agree that he has definitely exhibited characteristics of poor sportsmanship and traits of a sore loser in the past and sometimes he still does. However, several other players have exhibited similar behavior, yet they are adored by the community. The reality is that P2W has supported the Cleveland fighting game scene for various years. He single-handedly ran Console Combat for many years, dedicating time, effort, and money without asking for anything in return. He is not this toxic person that some people in the community make him out to be. Besides, when GGA Hahn beat me with Cyrax at Console Combat a while ago, I complained about Cyrax too. Who cares? Hahn knows I respect him as a player.

Also, the reason he is permanently banned from TYM is because certain moderators and administrators have personal vendettas. All the drama and feuds that some individuals have caused throughout the years at TYM, you cannot possibly look me in the eyes and point to P2W as the worst offender.

Dave in your opinion, how do you think we can avoid this animosity towards certain characters. you said you have Hated on a specific matchup like many players have, i might go as far as everybody has including myself. but how do we Separate Bad decisions or being outplayed from, Broken needs nerfs?

This is probably one of the single most problematic issues we have in balancing today. Many characters generate Salt and we want them toned down, when in fact many of those characters are not broke at all. and we may just be playing the matchup in a slightly different way that we should.

BTW im glade you defended Defensive tools in the game. yes Armored launchers that are safe can be a bit much when it comes to a general rule. but in this game its a small piece of Dirt that helps us overcome the nasty. I actually 100% feel unless they do away with all of the BS tools. We keep Armored launchers. Im sure i can't name them all but there is plenty of them in the game, and we can't act like taking them away wouldn't hurt those characters.

Scorpion, Jacqui, Reptile, Raiden, Ermac, Kotal, Kung Lao, Tanya, Tremor, Ferra Torr, SZ unbreakable/Cryo, and many more.

Ones we know have them plus BS on top of that are: Mileena, Alien.

But almost all of the cast has them safe or not. and it would hurt alot. thats a huge change that could hurt, id rather see Block Breaker be 1 bar and D2's get buffed and JIK/JIP get nerfed on select characters.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Who do I gotta fuck to get rid of some of these 50/50's?

play injustice. MKX and XL has always been geared towards 50/50's its the Meta and always has been, i feel those who hate it just hate the game. and should play another one. Don't get me wrong i understand why, its just at this point why are anyone still arguing with the Core meta and how its played.