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Mortal Kombat (2011) Matchup Chart

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
I think it's because Sub can't confirm 22 is blocked and safely go into his 224~clone because Ermac can bf1 punish it on reaction.

As for Cyrax, it's because Cyrax forces Sub to move and it hurts his gameplan.

This is speculation as I don't play Sub on a level that others do, nor do I have matchup experience with Sub against Ermac OR Cyrax... so take it as you will.
Those are good reasons, so good stuff, Konqrr.

In the Ermac matchup I usually just 22, freeze or 22... 22... sweep, throw etc or just block after 22. Even 224, ice slide so that if the Ermac player is anticipating a free punish off clone, he gets checked with the slide. So Sub still has options here. Maybe it is a 6-4 in Ermac's favour, I'd just always seen it as a 5-5.

Cyrax is a tough matchup but Sub can punish Cyrax's bombs with slide on reaction and, unlike other characters, he gets a safe trade with Cyrax (freeze and net). If you add to that ex freeze, he has a tool which can get around a lot of Cyrax's zoning, I would have thought that alone makes the matchup a 5-5, but again, I am willing to accept I could be wrong.
 

D. R.

Kombatant
Sub can walk in front of his clone and eliminate teleport. This makes Raiden free on wakeup and especially so when Sub has him cornered. Makes sense.
Could not have said it better myself. I actually mained Subz before I discovered all of Noob's tricks and due to the demo. The culprit in all of this is teleport. Put an ice clone behind you, walk forward and presto, no more random teleporting! Now your just dealing with Superman and slow strings. I find Raiden vs. Subz partially in Subz favor. If an ice clone is behind me, I can play super lame with iceball spam, twitch slides, strings, or block in anticipation of superman. Raidens not helpless in this match up by far, but when ice clone is out, Subz is in control. 5-5? Maybe. I could even argue to say 6-4 for Chinese Ninja Warrior over Thunder Queer. Fight broken with broken. :-P

Counter picking is showing its ugly head more and more in this game as we break it down.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Two errors in the matchup chart.

Reptile vs Cyber Sub 5-4?
Reptile vs Jade 5-4?

I think whoever added reptile typed in the numbers in the lower half erasing the formulas... I am sure that they are meant to be 5-5 matchups.
Yeah, I didn't realize that your formulas were set up to be plugged in straight across. >.>
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Yeah, I didn't realize that your formulas were set up to be plugged in straight across. >.>
It is a real pain to put the formulas back in, so I would suggest you reupload the blank one and put numbers back in. It will be way easier that way.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
I checked all of them...they should be right now. I should add you to the matchup chart editors, btw.
 

DrDogg

Kombatant
The following are Raiden's weaknesses as far as I know.
I'm aware of all of these, but I'll give my outlook on all of this.

- Bad distance game. Raiden's fireball is pretty mediocre. Any character with a teleport can punish Raiden fairly easily. The regular and enhanced fireball can both be crouched. No one should be blocking them. You don't want to allow Raiden to build any meter.
Raiden doesn't need a distance game, so the lack of one doesn't really effect him. That said, Raiden's EX Lightning is really good, ducked or blocked.

- Bad anti-aerial game. Raiden's AA game is anything but spectacular. His d+2 is slow. I think he struggles with cross up jumping punches and kicks in particular. He has to burn some meter to escape safely. If he uses the teleport, anticipate it and be ready to apply some kind of mix up if you cannot punish in time.
I think this is Raiden's biggest weakness, and the one I try to exploit the most when I face a decent Raiden. His d+3 can mess with cross-up jump timing, but that's the same problem you'd face with most characters.

- Risk vs. reward ratio is in your favor when he is grounded. Teleport has no invincibility frames when it is used as a wake up attack. Only the Electric Fly does. You may also see enhanced d,f+2 because of armor, but it hits high. The point is that the risk vs. reward ratio is in your favor to apply some pressure. Electric Fly does 10% of damage, but should you block it, make Raiden pay with your biggest combo.
On paper, I agree with this. However, in practice I do not. If Raiden goes with a wake-up Superman, you're taking 10% damage, possibly getting cornered, and Raiden gets wake-up pressure. If you block it, most characters are only taking 30% damage from him and only if Raiden doesn't have breaker. I think that's actually a pretty even risk/reward.

You also have to include the fact that while teleport is not invincible, you still need to hit it meaty and generally with a special-mid or low (a throw will work if you have good timing). Under these circumstances, Raiden has plenty of time to tech roll, see if you're attempting an attack and Superman right through it.

From my experience, most decent Raiden players won't Superman on wake-up unless they have reason to believe it will hit. Rarely do I see a blocked wake-up Superman when a good Raiden is playing.

- b+3,1,2 and 3,3,4. You can interrupt each hit of b+3,1,2 with moderately fast moves that have armor. You can also interrupt the last hit of 3,3,4 with moderately fast moves that have armor.
You can interrupt both strings with a 6-frame attack. You can probably interrupt with a 7-frame attack as well, but I've only tested a 6-frame. No armor is necessary to do this.

- Know your anti-teleport strategies. If you are playing character X, you should know exactly what character X can do to counter the teleport. Even if character X has difficulties punishing the teleport, think about generic alternatives like d+3 and jumping forward, which crosses up Raiden.
It's funny because when I was testing Raiden's teleport punishment, I was landing it about 50% of the time. In tournament play, I hit it maybe 10% of the time, even when trying a basic d+1 punishment. It's just very difficult to punish, especially with significant damage.

With that said, Old Kano used to be Raiden's toughest match up in my opinion. The fast and safe Up Ball made Raiden's life very hard. Now days I would think that Kung Lao is his most difficult match up. I am no Sub Zero expert but I would actually try and stay in the corner with Sub Zero. If you do a corner Ice Clone and Raiden teleports, he freezes automatically.
I'd agree with Kung Lao being a good match for Raiden, but that's probably still 5-5 at best. Sub-Zero seems like a 5-5 as well, but Raiden has ways around the Ice Clone.

4:40 in this vid
While I agree that Sub-Zero may have a 5-5 with Raiden, this is not a good example IMO. This match looked like a Raiden who did know the Sub-Zero match-up very well. Lots of missed punishment and he was hit by Ice Clones he could've easily avoided. Not to mention he hardly punished Sub for using the Ice Clone.

Could not have said it better myself. I actually mained Subz before I discovered all of Noob's tricks and due to the demo. The culprit in all of this is teleport. Put an ice clone behind you, walk forward and presto, no more random teleporting! Now your just dealing with Superman and slow strings. I find Raiden vs. Subz partially in Subz favor. If an ice clone is behind me, I can play super lame with iceball spam, twitch slides, strings, or block in anticipation of superman. Raidens not helpless in this match up by far, but when ice clone is out, Subz is in control. 5-5? Maybe. I could even argue to say 6-4 for Chinese Ninja Warrior over Thunder Queer. Fight broken with broken. :-P

Counter picking is showing its ugly head more and more in this game as we break it down.
What about Raiden's various counters to Ice Clone? I don't believe it's as cut and dry as you make it seem.
 

D. R.

Kombatant
What about Raiden's various counters to Ice Clone? I don't believe it's as cut and dry as you make it seem.
Isn't it? What does Raiden have? Strings, EN Superman or Lighting ball? He can't do a string to me and teleport for pressure, so he's left with those options. They trade projectiles, Subz wins. If Subz back is to the corner, especially with a clone out, what can Raiden really do? Lighting ball, walk forward, or jumpin? Subz has all of those covered, unless Raiden has meter and/or gets risky/random. It's gonna come down to alot of "what if" scenarios, but the main thing is with Ice Clone out and behind Subz, he's making a wall that Raiden can't get past with teleport. Is Ice Clone the end all, be all for Raiden? No. But a smart, lame Subz player will win this match with less risk then the Raiden player by fighting in patterns, creating reads on how Raiden reacts to certain situations and set ups, then adapting. That's Subz main gameplan afterall, set ups into Ice Clone bait, then take your damage. Unless the Raiden player is completely random and defies logical thinking with his own "reads," aka lucky guesses.
 

PeeJaeys

Sabi
Is the spreadsheet complete? Exculding DLC characters of course. Because I see some empty boxes. Does that mean there isn't enough information? Or what?
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
It is still being filled out as we speak. In no way, shape, or form is it 100% done. Even when it's fully filled, it won't be done until no one plays the game anymore.
 

lobo

woof.
can you change kano-kitana to 7-3? i think all kitana players can agree that it is her worst matchup by a long shot.

i'd like to hear the logic behind her having a 7-3 against TS as well. i can't argue it, but i'd like to know the reasoning. that said, i think her line at present is pretty on point with the exception of kano and maybe TS.

i'd also like to, once again, voice my disapproval of the chart having any 8-2 matchups this early in the game. quite frankly, it is impossible to be conclusively THAT bad this early. also, new players will look at the chart, see 2-8 matchups and decide against playing said characters, which is not cool considering that we haven't even had time to fully explore options.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
can you change kano-kitana to 7-3? i think all kitana players can agree that it is her worst matchup by a long shot.

i'd like to hear the logic behind her having a 7-3 against TS as well. i can't argue it, but i'd like to know the reasoning. that said, i think her line at present is pretty on point with the exception of kano and maybe TS.

i'd also like to, once again, voice my disapproval of the chart having any 8-2 matchups this early in the game. quite frankly, it is impossible to be conclusively THAT bad this early. also, new players will look at the chart, see 2-8 matchups and decide against playing said characters, which is not cool considering that we haven't even had time to fully explore options.
First of all, who the hell is TS? lol ... The only other 7-3 matchup besides Baraka and Jax is Sheeva.

Kano used to be 7-3 vs Kitana, but now that she can more easily play footsies and punish knives/upballs, it's not as bad. Still her worst matchup though.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Another thing about the Sub vs Raiden matchup is whenever Raiden has meter and Sub throws an iceball (clone out or not), it goes right through it all and takes Sub to the corner. Raiden with meter is scary lol
 

hardwire

Apprentice
could some one please tell me how to read this (not open it)

i have never played a game that was tier or match up dependent and i would really like to know smokes best and worst match ups

(i have my own ideas but i want to see how they match up)
 

PeeJaeys

Sabi
could some one please tell me how to read this (not open it)

i have never played a game that was tier or match up dependent and i would really like to know smokes best and worst match ups

(i have my own ideas but i want to see how they match up)
The Character list on the side correspond to the Acronyms on the top line. For example, Cyber Sub-Zero = CS. Hopefully you'll understand.
 
could some one please tell me how to read this (not open it)

i have never played a game that was tier or match up dependent and i would really like to know smokes best and worst match ups

(i have my own ideas but i want to see how they match up)
^^ do what the guy said above me to determine each acronyms name.
You than look for you character on the left side (character whose matchup your looking for let's say smoke)

You than want to see his matchup vs let's say reptile

You find the box that intersects the smokes row and reptiles column. This is the matchup number for smoke. So if it says 4 that means the matchup is a 4-6 in favor of reptile, or if it says 6 it is a 6-4 in favor of smoke.
 

lobo

woof.
First of all, who the hell is TS? lol ... The only other 7-3 matchup besides Baraka and Jax is Sheeva.

Kano used to be 7-3 vs Kitana, but now that she can more easily play footsies and punish knives/upballs, it's not as bad. Still her worst matchup though.
oops...um...ST? shang tsung. it's been a long couple days.
 

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
First of all, who the hell is TS? lol ... The only other 7-3 matchup besides Baraka and Jax is Sheeva.

Kano used to be 7-3 vs Kitana, but now that she can more easily play footsies and punish knives/upballs, it's not as bad. Still her worst matchup though.
He probably mean't, ST = shang tsung? I still don't know if I would call that 7-3 though.
 

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
Isn't it? What does Raiden have? Strings, EN Superman or Lighting ball? He can't do a string to me and teleport for pressure, so he's left with those options. They trade projectiles, Subz wins. If Subz back is to the corner, especially with a clone out, what can Raiden really do? Lighting ball, walk forward, or jumpin? Subz has all of those covered, unless Raiden has meter and/or gets risky/random. It's gonna come down to alot of "what if" scenarios, but the main thing is with Ice Clone out and behind Subz, he's making a wall that Raiden can't get past with teleport. Is Ice Clone the end all, be all for Raiden? No. But a smart, lame Subz player will win this match with less risk then the Raiden player by fighting in patterns, creating reads on how Raiden reacts to certain situations and set ups, then adapting. That's Subz main gameplan afterall, set ups into Ice Clone bait, then take your damage. Unless the Raiden player is completely random and defies logical thinking with his own "reads," aka lucky guesses.
I'm not sub/raiden expert but what is stopping raiden from doing an air torpedo/ex air torpedo to escape corner pressure?
 

Dark_Rob

Champion
Heres my take on Subzero's matchups given my experience.

vs Scorpion 5-5
vs Liu Kang 5-5
vs Kung Lao 5-5
vs Subzero 5-5
vs Sindel 6-4
vs ermac 4-6
vs Reptile 4-6
vs Kitana 4-6
vs johnny Cage 6-4
vs Jade 5-5
vs Mileena 6-4
vs Nightwolf 5-5
vs Cyrax 5-5
vs Noob 5-5
vs Smoke 6-4
vs Sektor 5-5
vs Sonya 6-4
vs Jax 6-4
vs Kano 5-5
vs Stryker 6-4
vs Shang Tsung 5-5
vs Baraka 7-3
vs Kabal 5-5
vs Raiden 5-5
vs Cybersubzero 5-5
vs Sheeva 6-4
vs Quan Chi 6-4
vs Skarlett 2-8(and thats being kind to Sub)
 

D. R.

Kombatant
Isn't it? What does Raiden have? Strings, EN Superman or Lighting ball? He can't do a string to me and teleport for pressure, so he's left with those options. They trade projectiles, Subz wins. If Subz back is to the corner, especially with a clone out, what can Raiden really do? Lighting ball, walk forward, or jumpin? Subz has all of those covered, unless Raiden has meter and/or gets risky/random. It's gonna come down to alot of "what if" scenarios, but the main thing is with Ice Clone out and behind Subz, he's making a wall that Raiden can't get past with teleport. Is Ice Clone the end all, be all for Raiden? No. But a smart, lame Subz player will win this match with less risk then the Raiden player by fighting in patterns, creating reads on how Raiden reacts to certain situations and set ups, then adapting. That's Subz main gameplan afterall, set ups into Ice Clone bait, then take your damage. Unless the Raiden player is completely random and defies logical thinking with his own "reads," aka lucky guesses.
I'll elaborate more. If you have Raiden pinned in the corner as a Subz player, he probably already has a clone sitting in front of him, as this is Subz main pressure in the corner, thus Raiden can teleport freely or EN Superman through, risking it be easily blocked unless he reads Subz 2,1,4 string being cancelled into the initial clone. If he teleported, now your in the corner with your clone in front of you. Not a bad place to be. Clone runs out, everything resets until Subz throws out another ice clone. Subz with his back in the corner doesn't have to worry about teleport or jump ins thanks to his AA 2,2 string. Actions on Raiden. Lighting ball (loses trade with Ice ball), try and punish another clone attempt (better guess right or he's getting punished), or move forward (he's not blocking between dashes, so Slide, step forward and Ice clone, or I decide to get aggressive).
 
Heres my take on Subzero's matchups given my experience.

vs Scorpion 5-5
vs Liu Kang 5-5
vs Kung Lao 5-5
vs Subzero 5-5
vs Sindel 6-4
vs ermac 4-6
vs Reptile 4-6
vs Kitana 4-6
vs johnny Cage 6-4
vs Jade 5-5
vs Mileena 6-4
vs Nightwolf 5-5
vs Cyrax 5-5
vs Noob 5-5
vs Smoke 6-4
vs Sektor 5-5
vs Sonya 6-4
vs Jax 6-4
vs Kano 5-5
vs Stryker 6-4
vs Shang Tsung 5-5
vs Baraka 7-3
vs Kabal 5-5
vs Raiden 5-5
vs Cybersubzero 5-5
vs Sheeva 6-4
vs Quan Chi 6-4
vs Skarlett 2-8(and thats being kind to Sub)
you realize your going to have to explain why you think kitana and skarlett have the advantage right? : P

lobo the chart doesn't say kitana has advantage of 7-3 for shang tsung it says 5-5. 7-3 is for sheeva who is right next to him : P
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Heres my take on Subzero's matchups given my experience.

vs Scorpion 5-5
vs Liu Kang 5-5
vs Kung Lao 5-5
vs Subzero 5-5
vs Sindel 6-4
vs ermac 4-6
vs Reptile 4-6
vs Kitana 4-6
vs johnny Cage 6-4
vs Jade 5-5
vs Mileena 6-4
vs Nightwolf 5-5
vs Cyrax 5-5
vs Noob 5-5
vs Smoke 6-4
vs Sektor 5-5
vs Sonya 6-4
vs Jax 6-4
vs Kano 5-5
vs Stryker 6-4
vs Shang Tsung 5-5
vs Baraka 7-3
vs Kabal 5-5
vs Raiden 5-5
vs Cybersubzero 5-5
vs Sheeva 6-4
vs Quan Chi 6-4
vs Skarlett 2-8(and thats being kind to Sub)
I agree with all of that, give or take a couple of scores. For instance, I think Sub is 4-6 against Kung Lao and 6-4 against Reptile, but your Sub-Zero adds up to 143 minus Skarlet, and mine added up to 144 minus Skarlet, so I wouldn't really disagree with you.

And, plus, you are THE Sub-Zero, Rob, at least until after Evo so thanks for the matchup analysis. ;)