All numbers except for the two random ones and kitana were done by Tom Brady AFAIK
Let him explain himself
The effects run first then he's invun it's possible to hit on the frame frame of the teleport after the effects but before he's invun.But if Raiden REALLY is invulnerable in his start up frames, then how come I was able to shoot him out of his teleport a few times? I'm pretty sure he has a few strike vulnerable frames in his start up animation. I've also seen jump punch hit Raiden as he was trying to teleport. But maybe that was before the patch?
Its not 2-8.rofl noob jade 'is' 2-8 also?
i'm sorry but this chart is sort of a total joke. there are no 2-8 matchups. that is TERRIBLE. it seems to me like a majority of this chart is based off of "omg they can counter mindless online spam = 7-3 or worse".
the idea of a 2-8 matchup 3 months into the game is laughable.
THTB, you should really designate 4-5 top players to fill in the chart, average them and ignore everyone else (including myself) because LOL. the thing is 1/3 full and so horribly wrong already. i mean...ermac is barely better than baraka and jax? how does than not ring false? hell his wakeup reversal alone makes him waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better.
i'd rather see what the top guys think than have any sort of input myself.
Basically, Noob can't spam tackle recklessly against her full screen or she can green glow, dash and punish with her double shadow kick for only 8% damage. Not too bad in my book. Her green glow also nullifes his slide and blackhole, but NOT his upknee. He's forced to fight her more aggressive with pokes, upknee spam, strings and throws, which Noob can do to an extent. Her saving grace upclose that does put the match in her favor is EN glow. I try and bait her to glow and instead she does EN, I'm dealing with Colossus now. She can then force 50/50 down my throat with or xx . Her rushdown isn't exactly scary imo because her overhead is slow as hell and she has no low combo starters, except the one I just mentioned, so Noob can space her out. His string really controls space well up close and can be dash cancelled into itself again, cancelled into upknee, or cancelled into whatever. Still though, a character forcing another character out of their zone is predicting the fight. Therefore, 6-4 Jade.2-8 does sound crazy. Every time I hear 2-8 for any game, I assume it was a mistake on the part of the developers as the boat can't leave the docks with such a glaring problem. ANYwho...
Can we assume a good Jade player will always punish that way and your alternate gameplan now becomes your standard gameplan against Jade? If so, what does the gameplan change to and what does the matchup now become?
Not entirely true, on the Ermac theory. Jade can shadow kick Ermac 100% off a blocked Push, and as you try and bait out a glowing Jade, its much much easier for me to just block. None of Ermacs strings have enough advantage to stop me from going into EN Glow, nor can he stop Jade from approaching.IMO, for Jade matchups there are too many 5-5's...
Jade vs Ermac should be 6-4 Ermac. His TK push shuts down her mid-range game, and she has to approach more cautiously. Her staff is not going to do her much good. Her best option is to wait for Ermac to approach, and use Shadow Glow to create an opening for a combo.
Jade vs Kitana should be 6-4 Jade I think. Ground fans get punished by dashing in and shadow kick with shadow flash active. Up close, Jade has the advantage given that she saves her meter for shadow glow.
If you shut down her fans, then she is forced to approach Jade. Keep in mind, you are now approaching a Jade with full meter, and Super Armor.Jade can't constantly be in glow. There is a small cooldown and a reckless Jade thinking that glow is going to protect her will run into attacks. She can't be reckless and do b1 into overhead because if I block the b1 and she commits to the overhead, I punish the overhead before it connects with 4~fan to over 40% damage. What other character can do that without meter? I just don't see Jade having a real advantage over Kitana. She can shut down fan throws, yeah, but not all the time...and Kitana isn't just about throwing fans.
I didn't know that was Paulo, but I also didn't say his frame data was wrong. That said, it seems as though he's at least a little bit incorrect about the invincibility on Raiden's teleport. We already have two people in this thread bearing witness to Raiden being hit out of the initial frames of the teleport.Dude, that's Paulo Garcia from NRS ... I'd say whatever frame data he throws at you is right.
Keep in mind that your character has to turn around before you can attack Raiden post-teleport. So assuming Paulo is correct and Raiden is -16, how many frames does it take for your character to turn around? In this instance, I'd guess at least 3-5 frames. I can connect an 11 frame attack to punish the teleport, but have not been successful with anything higher except for very specific situations.Wow, he has more recovery than I thought. So any 12 frames or under should technically be able to punish Raiden's teleport if we have good enough reaction?
Damn I need to practice my reaction more because 50% of the time CPU Raiden is able to block my 7f uppercut. Which means I react 6 frames (0.1 seconds) too late.
But if Raiden REALLY is invulnerable in his start up frames, then how come I was able to shoot him out of his teleport a few times? I'm pretty sure he has a few strike vulnerable frames in his start up animation. I've also seen jump punch hit Raiden as he was trying to teleport. But maybe that was before the patch?
so far it looks pretty spot on minus the ermac one saying its a 5-5 match.. i think its a 6-4 match in ermacs favor..whats with all these horrible match ups for sindel??? this chart is a joke...i dont have a hard time with sindel at all....thats just my opinion but i dont think shes bad as the chart says wow!!!
I think it's because Sub can't confirm 22 is blocked and safely go into his 224~clone because Ermac can bf1 punish it on reaction.Also, I don't understand why Sub-Zero is given a 4-6 against both Cyrax and Ermac. I would have thought both matchups are 5-5. Sub has way more tools than Cyrax or Ermac up close...
Sub can walk in front of his clone and eliminate teleport. This makes Raiden free on wakeup and especially so when Sub has him cornered. Makes sense.Doesn't Sub beat Raiden?
The following are Raiden's weaknesses as far as I know.DrDogg said:So does Raiden have a single bad match-up? He is by far the hardest match-up I have no matter which character I use. I find I have better luck switching to Raiden myself, and I don't even play Raiden. >_<
Kano forum seems to think he is a hard match because he can shutdown knife so easily.So how does Scorpion fare in all of this? Just curious, because not much talk about him and I almost never see any tournament matches with him.
4:40 in this vidSo does Raiden have a single bad match-up? He is by far the hardest match-up I have no matter which character I use. I find I have better luck switching to Raiden myself, and I don't even play Raiden. >_<