Discussion MKXL Post 3/29/16 Tier List Thread

[SOULWARRIOR 71K]

Yes. Now don't you feel for instance Kano and Shinnok plays radically different between variations?

Yes but in my opinion, when talking about tiers the borgs are not simply the same base character with another move set, they are literally different characters in the MK universe.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Well in theory if you guess right. Blocking it's just the same as an overhead/low HTB from Cyrax or anyone else.

cept cyrax can only launch if his Low bomb hits last, thats how he contiunes the combos. so u know its gonna be oh low, with other chars they can, mix them up,

 

[MsMiharo]

Yes but in my opinion, when talking about tiers the borgs are not simply the same base character with another move set, they are literally different characters in the MK universe.

How is them being different characters prior to MKX relevant to MKX tier lists? I made arguments for my case, you haven't.

 

[Marinjuana]

cept cyrax can only launch if his Low bomb hits last, thats how he contiunes the combos. so u know its gonna be oh low, with other chars they can, mix them up,

Cheese dude just using it as an example.

 

[SOULWARRIOR 71K]

How is them being different characters prior to MKX relevant to MKX tier lists? I made arguments for my case, you haven't.

1. I don't think you made a strong argument. You merely said other characters have variations which I am not arguing against. 2. My argument is that they are distinct characters and should be ranked accordingly. Just because they appear under one selection doesn't just erase the fact that they still have the same distinctions that they've always had. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Apex Kano]

They suck. He sucks. Don't play him. You're welcome.

Jokes aside he is kinda crap. He has probably the worst movement in the game meaning some matchups like Displacer Raiden and Smoke are terrible since you can rarely get a hit in. I play Bartitsu and although it has good range and you can play it defensively to an extent using its far-range D4 and farts he's still extremely slow. His fastest starter/punisher in this variation is TEN frames which is frankly outrageous. Drunken Master and Dragon's Breath at least have access to F1 which is an 8 frame multi-hitting advancing mid in those variations but in Bartitsu it's an 11 frame high. He has fast pokes but not many ways to get the opponent to respect him. He's supposed to excel at mixups but his risk reward is terrible since most options either require meter for big damage or just do very little damage, and almost everything he does is full combo punishable on block. Some of hix mixups options are actually so slow you can react to them and full combo punish him for them! However if you can get them to the corner you can really do some damage but unfortauntely it's one block and you're done. Drunken Master and Dragon's Breath are slightly better but you should find someone who plays those variations in the Bo forum since they'll be able to tell you more than I can about them.

No respect given to him from you it seems. He doesnt suck that bad as you make him

 

[MsMiharo]

1. I don't think you made a strong argument. You merely said other characters have variations which I am not arguing against. 2. My argument is that they are distinct characters and should be ranked accordingly. Just because they appear under one selection doesn't just erase the fact that they still have the same distinctions that they've always had. We can agree to disagree.

Them being different characters in the MK universe does not warrant different positions on the tier list that's all. I'm not saying they're the same character in the lore lol.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

1. I don't think you made a strong argument. You merely said other characters have variations which I am not arguing against. 2. My argument is that they are distinct characters and should be ranked accordingly. Just because they appear under one selection doesn't just erase the fact that they still have the same distinctions that they've always had. We can agree to disagree.

I think what he is saying is how is going from smoke to cyrax any different from going from ronin to sr Takeda

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

near to perfect. U prefer to put Kano and Takeda in A+

 

[T-box88]

Except that when Demolition Sonya has at least two grenades, she has access to a meterless invincible wake-up that does almost 20% and she can combo off if she's in the corner/the opponent is in the corner. It's one of the best wake-ups in the game.

And don't even get me started on D'vorah. A character doesn't move down in tiers for not having a certain tool when everything else they have is 10/10.

Yes but the characters id put above her (dvora) are 10/10 on almost everything including wake ups. Dvoras only reward for playing defense is like what?... 10-12% (excuse me if i dont have the exact number) and its unsafe on block. When compared to other armored moves that DONT launch its among the worst. Point is shes ALWAYS had a huge defense issue. This last patch really didnt do much to boost her defense (contrary to popular belief). Now i will admit that her pressure is better than the characters i would put above thats a given, but with how weak her defense is I see her just outside of S+ but this is just an opinion.

 

[Rozalin1780]

I can see both sides of the argument on whether or not Triborg's variations should be rated seperately.

On one hand, Triborg does share some base normals across all four variations which is no different than any other character -- some of which have radically different playstyles and movesets as well.

On the other hand, no other character in the game has so many variation specific strings. In most cases, a variation will have 1-3 variation specific strings -- if any at all. In Triborg's case, he has, what, 5 BASE strings and no shared specials at all? That's including the X-Rays, which no other character has variation specific X-Rays.

My two cents, for what it's worth, which is nothing, is if your tier list is based on characters as a whole and not comparing all variations against one another, then there is no reason to make an exception for Triborg. Triborg's variations being based on characters from previous games should have absolutely no impact on a tier list. None. Otherwise, where's Mournful's special tier placement?

 

[SOULWARRIOR 71K]

I think what he is saying is how is going from smoke to cyrax any different from going from ronin to sr Takeda

I understand exactly what he is saying, I just don't agree. I don't view each Borg as part of a whole. They are each independently whole characters whereas Ronin and SR are variations of the same base character. Again, I have no problem agreeing to disagree and being the only one who sees it this way.

 

[errormacro7]

Yes but the characters id put above her (dvora) are 10/10 on almost everything including wake ups. Dvoras only reward for playing defense is like what?... 10-12% (excuse me if i dont have the exact number) and its unsafe on block. When compared to other armored moves that DONT launch its among the worst. Point is shes ALWAYS had a huge defense issue. This last patch really didnt do much to boost her defense (contrary to popular belief). Now i will admit that her pressure is better than the characters i would put above thats a given, but with how weak her defense is I see her just outside of S+ but this is just an opinion.

In a game where many characters have safe 50/50s, Mileena has to spend meter to launch from a 50/50 and she's always unsafe. Are you gonna say she's not top 3 because she doesn't have a safe 50/50 like some of the characters in S tier? Pre-patch Summoner Quan Chi had bad defense too, but you can't say he wasn't S tier. That doesn't make sense.

 

[Derptile]

Triborg stays as one character.

The difference between CSZ, Cyrax, Smoke, and Sektor aren't that great when you compare them to other members of the cast.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Triborg stays as one character.

The difference between CSZ, Cyrax, Smoke, and Sektor aren't that great when you compare them to other members of the cast.

Iv actually changed my opinions on this. I used to think they should be ranked differently but they hinge on a lot of the same stuff.

 

[Youphemism]

Sub's scaling means the combos you get are pretty low compared to in other MU's (low 28%, OH 29%, 1 bar). Say you go for a throw instead, then you have to either end your next combo in the iceball, lose your oki and damage to just get rid of it. The only way to combo with ice ball is to use a bar or from F2 or 112 iirc, or B3, F4 in the corner. Bear in mind though that I still use Shinnok for this MU because of how tele gets rid of clone. I'm not saying it's bad just not his best.

Same is true for CSZ, but you get 30% off the OH (I might remember it incorrectly). BRC is a pretty similar situation as well.

Smoke's bomb is really hard to hit consistently, but I had forgotten it hits from f4 so I'll hold that.

I didn't know you could vortex Erron midscreen so I'll hold that too I guess. The thing is these vortexes are pretty dependant on meter. If you find yourself not having it you're just gonna throw the move away at the end of a combo or saving it for a punish. I personally prefer the moves that grant you a good ender over something that gimps my damage and might force me to hold on to the move until I get a combo. For instance if I get a f4 punish with Sub's ball on deck I can't combo that so either I have to go for 112 which is slower and a high, I also have to end in HS or shoulder which is no where near as advantageous. Maybe it's a preference thing but I prefer strong enders or strong vortexes over really gimmicky ones.

Impostor isn't always the highest damaging variation anyway and Sub's damage isn't going to be much higher than yours unless he's Cryomancer or GM in the corner. Again you're saying "get rid of it" to these moves but you don't want to get rid of them because they're not bad moves, they help you get your vortex going again and that's a good thing. A vortex is a vortex and 30% for a bar is still alright if it leads into a vortex situation, look at Smoke for example.

Yeah it's difficult though, at least off the overhead. You can get 24% meterless/32% 1 bar vortex off the overhead and 28% 1 bar vortex from the low.

No respect given to him from you it seems. He doesnt suck that bad as you make him

No wonder, he's terrible. And no offence but you once said he was top 5 so...

 

[MsMiharo]

Impostor isn't always the highest damaging variation anyway and Sub's damage isn't going to be much higher than yours unless he's Cryomancer or GM in the corner. Again you're saying "get rid of it" to these moves but you don't want to get rid of them because they're not bad moves, they help you get your vortex going again and that's a good thing. A vortex is a vortex and 30% for a bar is still alright if it leads into a vortex situation, look at Smoke for example.

Yeah it's difficult though, at least off the overhead. You can get 24% meterless/32% 1 bar vortex off the overhead and 28% 1 bar vortex from the low.

Let's just agree to disagree. I find those MU's generally to be too meter intensive for Impostor. Having a decent ender as you do vs say Sonya is usually better for my type of play. He does struggle vs reptile though.

 

[TheGangstaFace]

Triborg stays as one character.

The difference between CSZ, Cyrax, Smoke, and Sektor aren't that great when you compare them to other members of the cast.

Egos. Agendas. Kappa. But FR I don't agree with that statement lol

 

[Youphemism]

Let's just agree to disagree. I find those MU's generally to be too meter intensive for Impostor. Having a decent ender as you do vs say Sonya is usually better for my type of play. He does struggle vs reptile though.

Shinnok is just meter intensive in general lol. When you're not vortexing you can build meter with specials/from getting hit but a vortex is a vortex and having a vortex is super strong. Stealing BF4 doesn't really help that much imo, it's like the Liu matchup. I thought he didn't so as well vs Reptile too but Stabs thinks otherwise because forceball gives you extra chip (although any move does really) and a safe overhead (which is HUGE).

 

[MsMiharo]

Shinnok is just meter intensive in general lol. When you're not vortexing you can build meter with specials/from getting hit but a vortex is a vortex and having a vortex is super strong. Stealing BF4 doesn't really help that much imo, it's like the Liu matchup. I thought he didn't so as well vs Reptile too but Stabs thinks otherwise because forceball gives you extra chip (although any move does really) and a safe overhead (which is HUGE).

I don't know, the vortex becomes too situational for my liking.

You can but the setup is hard and it usually leaves a gap/isn't safe. It's hard to make it gapless and safe.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

Looks like Akro has gotten a huge ego after beating Reo's alts on his stream. I thought he was supposed to leave like a year ago or something.

 

[Akromaniac27]

As the title states, this isn't an apology whatsoever. This is to explain what was said and posted, in a final attempt to see if ya'll can see the light. Cuz truthfully, it's kinda terrifying just how misguided many of your statements are, yet you believe them to be true. There's some Mileena matches for the first half of it, but the audio is all throughout. Around 16:10 is where the Tier List explanation starts.

 

[LaidbackOne]

 

[MsMiharo]

The return of the Bradycast

 

[Prinz]

Name your videos "The B-twelve cast".