Because it encourages discussion about the game at a competitive level which is the point of this site...what's wrong with that? Jeez people cry about anything these days.
one- i dont see how this is crying - and two - thats just the way i see it.. just seems like every day theres a new "top 5" thread when really there could be just one or two where it would be much more organised then floating between like 5-7 threads every week. So by suggesting that all the top tier repeat threads be condensed for bettter viewing and organization is crying, then forget i said anything . carry on
She has no mobility other than walking back and forth and her walk speed isn't even the best. If she uses teleport or any air special she will be full combo punished, all of them have very bad recovery. Her damage in DN was stealth nerf very long ago and NRS didn't bother buffing it again.
Kobu Jutsu is only good at 1 thing: footsie with her 10f mid. Unfortunately NRS nerfed one thing that nobody knows why, noone's ever complaint about: Kobu Jutsu combo damage. Her footsie leads to terrible damage, she has to open people up like 20 times per match to win
Many universal nerfs also cripple her: NRS reduced chip damage AND meter building on blocking normals. She's more meter hungry, does less chip damage and less combo damage in the same patch. Throw is made to be more easier to tech also hurts her
All of this is completely correct. I believe Tanya and Bo are the two broken characters of the game.
The problem with Tanya is that they have just nerfed everything that she has to the ground rather than trying to fix her - she is an absolute mess. I can understand NRS wanting to balance her more, but their solution was not to make thoughtful changes to her variations by applying balanced buffs and nerfs, it was just to remove her tools to appease the haters. She has had many universal changes and stealth nerfs which have largely affected Pyromancer (which is reliant on default normals) and DN (which was clearly built around her original tele). It is obvious that she has been put in to the too hard basket - DN and Pyro have been crying out for decent adjustments for a long time now and they have largely been ignored.
It's not guaranteed though like other RC characters due to the gap.
TBH I always thought prepatch Kobu's damage was too high and that nerfing it would've been a good solution to balance her.
He doesn't have launching Armor but EX Soul Blast is a good wake up, what are these "plenty" bad MUs?, no low overhead strings? B3 is safe on it's own & confirmable & F43 is safe if you don't wanna commit to the damage.
F43 can't be cancelled & has no good setups. B3 isn't a string... ExDB2 gets crossed up super easy. He isn't S tier wtf is wrong with everyone? Sometimes I feel like the known TYM members make ludicrous claims just to laugh at the herd of sheep following them.
TYM Rockstar: Goro is S tier
TYM Groupie: Omg yeah that's exactly how I see it!!
Edit: You're able to confirm off a 13 Frame B3? How?
He doesn't have launching Armor but EX Soul Blast is a good wake up, what are these "plenty" bad MUs?, no low overhead strings? B3 is safe on it's own & confirmable & F43 is safe if you don't wanna commit to the damage.
one- i dont see how this is crying - and two - thats just the way i see it.. just seems like every day theres a new "top 5" thread when really there could be just one or two where it would be much more organised then floating between like 5-7 threads every week. So by suggesting that all the top tier repeat threads be condensed for bettter viewing and organization is crying, then forget i said anything . carry on
Except you didn't suggest anything, you just asked why mods "let" a new tier-related thread be made, so don't make me sound stupid for something that didn't happen until this latest post of yours. And different people have different opinions on tiers so each thread isn't exactly going to discuss the exact same things, a persons own tier list opinion gives them a way to discuss with TYM why they think that. We don't want to squash everyone's opinion together, we want to encourage people to give their opinion and a persons personal tier list is a way for them to express that opinion.
Although now that you've actually expressed your opinion in a way that directly addresses a mod rather than being what comes across as indirect whining we'll take it into consideration.
F43 can't be cancelled & has no good setups. B3 isn't a string... ExDB2 gets crossed up super easy. He isn't S tier wtf is wrong with everyone? Sometimes I feel like the known TYM members make ludicrous claims just to laugh at the herd of sheep following them.
TYM Rockstar: Goro is S tier
TYM Groupie: Omg yeah that's exactly how I see it!!
You don't even need to commit to F43 half the time since F4~soul ascension~followup only has a 5 frame gap if done correctly.
B3 leads into both 21 which hits overhead and 4 which hits low. Yeah it's fuzziable but you also don't need to do these strings in Spectral.
EXDB2 getting crossed up "super easily" isn't a reason he's not S tier. He can easily use EXBF2 or EXDB4 instead.
You saying he isn't S tier doesn't make him not S tier, you're not even backing your opinion up with facts.
Please, PLEASE, go and lab Spectral before continuing this discussion. Seriously, I'm only telling you this to help you help yourself.
F43 can't be cancelled & has no good setups. B3 isn't a string... ExDB2 gets crossed up super easy. He isn't S tier wtf is wrong with everyone? Sometimes I feel like the known TYM members make ludicrous claims just to laugh at the herd of sheep following them.
TYM Rockstar: Goro is S tier
TYM Groupie: Omg yeah that's exactly how I see it!!
Edit: You're able to confirm off a 13 Frame B3? How?
one- i dont see how this is crying - and two - thats just the way i see it.. just seems like every day theres a new "top 5" thread when really there could be just one or two where it would be much more organised then floating between like 5-7 threads every week. So by suggesting that all the top tier repeat threads be condensed for bettter viewing and organization is crying, then forget i said anything . carry on
Since the patch came out there hasn't been a legitimate tier list discussion thread. It's all been a bunch of threads asking who's top/bottom 5 and that's a different discussion.
Time to stop beating around the bush and get to it. Read it and weep. The tier list is made regarding the best variation of the character, and it's in no particular order.
S Tier: Mileena, Kano, Johnny Cage, D'Vorah, Takeda, Ermac, Alien(-)
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A+ Tier: Jax, Sub-Zero, Quan Chi, Sonya, Shinnok, Kung Jin, Liu Kang, Tremor, Ferra Torr(+)
+ : Means a character can move up in the future
- : Means a character can move down in the future
? : Not sure, a good guesstimate. Either due to lack of players since a patch or a new Character.
What the tiers represent
S tier: These characters are the cream of the crop in this game and have many benefits to choosing them and very few negatives.
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A+ Tier: These characters are very strong tourney characters, they have either have the same strengths as S tier character but with an extra weakness, or slightly less strength but same low amount of negatives
A Tier: These characters are strong tourney characters. A and A+ tier characters are pretty similar in terms of what they can do, but the A+ characters just feel like they have a tiny bit more Oomph compared to A tier. When people talk balanced and good they usually refer to this tier, but this is MKX so of course they're still plenty dirty.
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B+ Tier: Okay now we're approaching characters that are "Decent tourney characters". They have good strengths but noticeable weaknesses or have average strengths with small weaknesses. Characters here can win a tourney but definitely have to put in more work and reads than A tier members. In a normal game these characters would be considered fair and balanced.
B Tier: If you win a tourney with a character here then we salute you.
List of Changes
-Moved Jacqui from being a character with a (+) in B+ tier to A tier.
EDIT: Actually slight edit, if you're lucky to have a character that can function like a Swiss pocket knife and have multiple useful variations that might cover an occasional bad MU then that's taken into consideration a bit. Not in the sense like Kung Jin's Ancestral is dogshit so he drops a tier, I mean like how Ferra Torr or Quan Chi can change up depending on the MU. It should better explain some placements on here, I don't really see anything changing since every character has a best/goto variation anyways.
@Derptile i think it might be appropriate to list all the triborgs separately just based on how different they are. They seem like a special occasion. It seems weird to call Sektor and Smoke the same character.
@Derptile i think it might be appropriate to list all the triborgs separately just based on how different they are. They seem like a special occasion. It seems weird to call Sektor and Smoke the same character.
BRB, Adding 4 more characters with questions marks to the list, yeah not gonna happen. Maybe in the future when everyone knows more about them, but for now they can stay as Triborg.
Also they really are just variations of each other, the difference between Cyber-Sub and Sektor is just like how Cybernetic and Cutthroat Kano are different. So IMO there's no real need to separate them.
Quick question: Are you treating spectral or MoS as the go to for Ermac? @Derptile I know spectral has all this hype recently, but MoS has been his go to for most of the games life span.
Quick question: Are you treating spectral or MoS as the go to for Ermac? @Derptile I know spectral has all this hype recently, but MoS has been his go to for most of the games life span.
Do you mind explaining Ermacs placement in S tier a little more?
He doesn't have the safe 50/50s of D vorah or Alien (I guess I'm only saying this because everything he does in the air is armorable), much less an answer to everything in one variation like Kano and Mileena. I mean MoS gets blown up for free when he goes in for a F4/B3 soul ball making it a "fair" 50/50. Where as Spectral is pretty nasty in the corner, mid-screen he can't compare his F4 potential vs his B3 potential. F4 is very hit confirm able, and B3 may be hit confirm able I don't think so (Don't quote me on it) Ask @Big D@Nausea@Beyond Toxin
I just want to understand how he's the same S tier and not a high A+ with potential of going to S tier if more tech is shown. I don't think you're wrong I just don't know the same information as you is what I'm assuming atm. Is this just a case of me not looking into spectrals dirt?
Not understanding how lao goes from top 3 to bottom 10 just from losing his insane corner jailing while tremor gets two of his most important core moves basically deleted along with other minor nerfs and he's somehow still considered top 10. No way is tremor up there with the likes of shinnok, sonya and kung jin and nooo way is lao suddenly as bad as Raiden.
Not understanding how lao goes from top 3 to bottom 10 just from losing his insane corner jailing while tremor gets two of his most important core moves basically deleted along with other minor nerfs and he's somehow still considered top 10. No way is tremor up there with the likes of shinnok, sonya and kung jin and nooo way is lao suddenly as bad as Raiden.
Chip damage was nerfed, meter building was nerfed, teching grabs is now easier, less plus frames, less damage, and less air superiority. Everything he was good at pre-patch was nerfed, this has already been discussed earlier in this thread.
And Tremors' still good, hell every Tremor player also agrees he's still good. Also Raiden's most likely better than Lao, IMO.
BRB, Adding 4 more characters with questions marks to the list, yeah not gonna happen. Maybe in the future when everyone knows more about them, but for now they can stay as Triborg.
Also they really are just variations of each other, the difference between Cyber-Sub and Sektor is just like how Cybernetic and Cutthroat Kano are different. So IMO there's no real need to separate them.
Not much discussion about Reptile, so that tells me you're on the right track. What standards would you use to determine if a character goes up or down, though? I can see Reptile moving up, but I'm curious about your process.
Not much discussion about Reptile, so that tells me you're on the right track. What standards would you use to determine if a character goes up or down, though? I can see Reptile moving up, but I'm curious about your process.
A character can move up or down depending on how useful they are in the meta. Reptile's already pretty much figured out in the sense that he's a solid MKX style character with good 50/50s, footsies, pokes, setups, and armor. If it turns out he's a character whos design remains solid compared to everyone elses as the game progresses then he'll move up.
Right now Mileena, Sub-Zero, Liu Kang, Kano, Shinnok, and Kung jin are considered to be bad MUs by the Reptile community and they're all popular tournament characters as well, plus Reptile's character design doesn't really allow for steamrolling through opponents(Ferra Torr, D'Vorah, Kano, etc.) or completely controlling the pace of a game(Takeda, Mileena, Sub Zero, etc.) which is why I'm keeping him out of A+ Tier. However, he doesn't have any particular weaknesses and IMO Reptile is a character that can always succeed as long as they're being played by a competent player.
I think there's a good chance that Reptile will be considered A+ tier by the end of the game's life or even in a few months.
Possibly best tier list I've seen to date. Your S+ is completely accurate except for its lack of Reptile, who is absurdly low on this list. I think Sub is a bit high, but everything else is great.
I know this is a character tier list but I think you should make a special exception for Ruthless. If 75% for one bar and almost never being punishable isn't S+ then I don't know what is, also Ruthless is so far ahead of the other two variations its hardly fair to lump them all together when talking about the character in relation to tiers. Sure Lackey and Vicious are great, solid A tiers, but Ruthless is just head and shoulders above the others.
