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MKX and Command Grabs

buyacushun

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
wa_black said:
They're awesome because they stop the opponent from blocking, have good damage, extend/alter combos, or make block string mix ups. If they don't either of these, then they're garbage.

What sucks are command grabs you can block, shout-outs to Alex's back fierce (third strike) and cassie's f2,1+3 (brawler).
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Getting through blocks isn't my complaint.
they don't have good damage.
they're just an ender that might be used to side switch in some cases.
EB has the most tick mixups and the few actual grapplers I tried seemed lacking. I think Kotal's ticks might be the best out of the "grapplers".
Don't understand that last sentence.

Cassie actually has another regular throw. What you're talking about is just a mid string with a grab on hit reaction. That's in a lot of stuff.
 
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wa_black

Noob
buyacushun said:
Getting through blocks isn't my complaint.
they don't have good damage.
they're just an ender that might be used to side switch in some cases.
EB has the most tick mixups and the few actual grapplers I tried seemed lacking. I think Kotal's ticks might be the best out of the "grapplers".
Don't understand that last sentence.

Cassie actually has another regular throw. What you're talking about is just a mid string with a grab on hit reaction. That's in a lot of stuff.
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But with cassie there would be no point in doing it because if you've confirmed the hit you can get a full combo. What command grabs are you talking about? Jason, erron, Jax, cassie (with the exception of the one I mentioned), all have great damage.

But getting through blocks is literally the whole point of a command grab because, in most cases, they can't be teched. So the opponent has to respect it.
 
buyacushun

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
wa_black said:
But with cassie there would be no point in doing it because if you've confirmed the hit you can get a full combo. What command grabs are you talking about? Jason, erron, Jax, cassie (with the exception of the one I mentioned), all have great damage.

But getting through blocks is literally the whole point of a command grab because, in most cases, they can't be teched. So the opponent has to respect it.
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I know Erron and Cassie dont get more than 18% which is 6% more than a regular throw. So to commit to it hoping your opponent doesn't jump or armor is a big risk when it could mean you lose 25-30%. Plus if they get hit and you cancel into throw you will whiff. Oh and good luck consistently confirming 212 with Cassie and making your tick throw a threat.
I'd have to check Jason's and Jax's. (I hate how the inputs are for Jax's grab. I feel like you would only practically do 2-3 slams.)

Jason gets 14& and 19% with barely any advantage AND switches sides with his DUCKABLE throw. 13% and 19% on his regular command grab with maybe less, maybe more advantage, switches sides, and throws the opponent even further away from Jason.

Jax gets 14% and 18% (without the last part) on his command grab, I can't tell how much advantage he gets.

Cassie gets 13% and side switches with barely advantage. Oh hers is duckable also. Can't EX it.

Erron Black gets 13% and 19% with no advantage and if you MB it you are basically fullscreen.

I think Kano, Jason or f/T might have the most damaging true command grabs at 19 maybe 20%.

8% more than a throw on a guess/read ain't good damage.
 
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wa_black

Noob
It's not about the damage. It's about the threat. That's one of the reasons erron black is so scary to fight; even if you block everything get grabbed. If you think he's going to grab you try Evade and get hit. You're suppose to use them sparingly to remind your opponent they can't block forever. The difference between command grabs and throws, is that you can't cancel into regular throws. The command grabs I think suck are the low damage and limited use ones like cassie's kombo throw.
 
buyacushun

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
wa_black said:
It's not about the damage. It's about the threat. That's one of the reasons erron black is so scary to fight; even if you block everything get grabbed. If you think he's going to grab you try Evade and get hit. You're suppose to use them sparingly to remind your opponent they can't block forever. The difference between command grabs and throws, is that you can't cancel into regular throws. The command grabs I think suck are the low damage and limited use ones like cassie's kombo throw.
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Erron Black is scary because he has OH/Low mixups, combo damage, unblockable damage, 2 variations have ok projectiles, good armor moves. The command grab just gives him another avenue for damage and he has the best tick setups. Dude can tick off 11. That's crazy.

But for characters like Kano (excluding cutthroat) with no real mixup and his ticks honestly suck and Kotal who's only overhead (excluding waar god) is a hard knockdown and both his low and OH isn't quick. They are mostly whiff-punishing and doing slight pressure to actually get damage, that isn't really going to add up unless your opponent is reckless. If kotal grabs you twice he gets 20%. If you neutral jump once when he tries to grab, or armor, he is eating way more than that. They both have to do WAY more to even keep up in damage. And once again, even on correct guesses they can't even pressure, which is like a staple for a grappler getting in and actually landing the grab. That way they don't have to risk health over again just to make a read/guess.

I understand the threat of a command grab but it's not much of a threat when you have to do it 3-4 times as much as your opponent has to hit you. Oh and plenty of combos allow for WAY MORE pressure than command grabs do. Really, it doesn't make sense. NRS even buffed Kotal's advantage and damage and nerfed EB's advantage. So they at least realize some drawbacks and what I'm saying isn't bull.

Invincible Salads said:
yeah but tekken is a lot different compared to mkx, and u can parry command grab attempts can't u?
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Didn't mean the game should be Tekken. Was just comparing it to a 3D fighter because I compared 2D ones and MK has more 3D conventions than 2D.
 
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StealthyMuffin

Earth's Mightiest Knucklehead
Do we like how strong they are?

Untechable While Blocking
Holding block while trying to tech is not possible. Releasing block in this game can lead to around 40%.

Range
The range of throws can compete with most of the cast's s1.

50/50
Most top players have realized the trick to negating it, but the 50/50 aspect is certainly overkill.

There are other reasons why grabs are nuts, but I'm lazy and just want to quickly revive this discussion. I'm really not sure where TYM stands on grabs.

 
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ForeverKing

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
I really hate how you have to mash 1 or 2 to break grabs. You should only have to press the button one time to tech it. Every time I read a throw, if I press the button one time to tech it then I'll just get thrown. But if I mash the button, I'll actually tech the throw.

I think that's BS. It encourages controller breaking lmao
 
Samsara

Samsara

Resident Cynic
Nrs ability to try and squeeze a coin toss mechanic into every nook and cranny in this game is quite amusing. I could not for the life of me give a valid reason as to why teching a throw requires a complete guess.

What I find somewhat even more amusing is that you can turn what is natively a guess into a 50/50 set up for a bar of meter. I think its hillarious.

I'd allow people to tech throws while blocking.
 
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Nuovo_Cabjoy

Nuovo_Cabjoy

G O R O B O Y S
I think allowing techs while blocking will solve most of the issues I have with the mechanic. It's too much of a risk if you think you made the right read on a throw, but you end up eating a combo into 30-40%.
 
WidowPuppy

WidowPuppy

Attack pekingese
When the game first came you could mash jab punishes as reversals, that's since been corrected. Most likely can't tech while blocking because the same thing would happen, as far as people just OS mashing grab tech while blocking. They'd still have to guess but, stage positioning usually gives it away.
 
TarkatanDentist

TarkatanDentist

Kombatant
The fact you can't tech throws while blocking is utterly ridiculous tbqh. There aren't that many things I dislike about this game, but dear lord, this is definitely an exception...

Also the fact that you still take 2% even when you successfully tech the throw... even though getting that tech involves releasing block (i.e. taking a huge-ass risk), and then guessing right on a coin flip.

I honestly wish they'd copied and pasted SF's throw system instead; SF's throw mechanics are pretty much perfect.
 
I GOT HANDS

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
themilkman014 said:
Nrs ability to try and squeeze a coin toss mechanic into every nook and cranny in this game is quite amusing. I could not for the life of me give a valid reason as to how teching a throw requires a complete guess.

What I find somewhat even more amusing is that you can turn what is natively a guess into a 50/50 set up for a bar of meter. I think its hillarious.

I'd allow people to tech throws while blocking.
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I heard you like 50/50s



That being said this one isn't quite a 50/50, if you are ready for it it's pretty obvious which way you are gunna get thrown MOST the time.

I don't think we should be able to tech when blocked. Hell I don't think we should be able to tech at all.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
You didn't mention that they also do 12%. If to tech a grab you have to guess (50/50) and you also can't tech while blocking, them being 12% is kinda ridiculous. If they were harder to land, as in they were easier to tech and you could tech them while blocking, them being 12% would make sense. As it is now, throws are arguably too good. That said, I'm not really advocating they change them in MKX, but in future titles I hope they at least make teching a throw based on skill and not luck.
 
Espio

Espio

Kokomo
If you read a throw, you could just neutral duck it and punish instead of trying to tech it, that removes having to guess which way the opponent is going to throw you outright anyway and you actually get a punish instead of merely teching the throw and getting nothing, just a thought.


Throws are strong, but I think them being strong is vital to a lot of characters.
 
Undeadjim

Undeadjim

Green Lantern Corps.
Juggs said:
You didn't mention that they also do 12%
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Not if you're Predator :REO

FOREVER KING said:
Also the most retarded thing ever is if you tech a throw at the beginning of a match, your opponent gains a bar of meter for the first hit bonus.... Dumbest thing ever.
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Was the same in Injustice I believe also? and I'm not a fan of this also and the 2% damage you take from teching really don't understand that. When I play Shinnok half the games I start of with hellsparks MB and run in for my free meter grab.
 
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StealthyMuffin

Earth's Mightiest Knucklehead
Espio said:
Throws are strong, but I think them being strong is vital to a lot of characters.
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That's the discussion I had with a really strong Ninjutsu player. Nerfed grabs (like every other FG) would still be viable mix ups. They just wouldn't be ridiculously good.
 
pzea

pzea

Noob
I don't like how easy it is to miss a grab without the enemy really doing anything about it. Grabs are just pretty easy to wiff sometimes just due to luck, or because one of your hits made the enemy tilt back a bit and your grab misses while he's tilting. At the same time, countering grabs should be something that's much easier to do. I very rarely ever consciously tech a throw. They should just make it so you have a very small window to tech a throw right at the start of it. And all throws can be countered by pressing L2 during that small window. The window will be small enough that it would be really hard to just press L2 on reaction unless you're really paying attention for throws. Pressing L2 before you are being grabbed puts grab countering on cooldown for like 0.5 seconds, meaning you can't counter an incoming grab, so no mashing.

You can now tech throws reliably, even while holding block, if you are trained and paying attention. You can't mash L2 because it will put it on cooldown letting your opponent grab you. No 50/50 game with throws. The balance would be centered around how large the window is. Small enough that throws are still useful, big enough that if you're thinking about a throw coming you'll be able to counter it.
 
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