MKX "3-styles" - good or bad?

[WakeUp DP]

thats just making new characters

Not shit Sherlock.

It would def make each char more fun to use.

 

[gabesena]

i you blind pick your style, the opponent won't counter pick you, so at least the first fight will be legit, let the counterpick for the rest of the set

 

[aldazo]

This doesnt make gameplay any better.. Blind pick is not a fix to bad balance it only makes game more random as you now have to play rock/paper/scissors game at character select screen. And if you guess wrong you have to play 7-3 or worse MU which is pretty much unwinnable.

But that's assuming char 1 var x against char 2 var z will be a 7-3 (or 8-2) and viceverza; but maybe they end being 6-4 and viceverza, so it would actually be an improvement compared to the other games you have mentioned where char1 vs char2 becomes a fixed 6-4. But yes we should expect a 7-3 (according to previous history). Now obviously you will play rock paper scissors but sticking to the same char, so now your char has a (random) chance of winning the fight without recurring to other char. I know that isn't balance, and it could seem as NRS trying to "balance" the game with "variations" instead of giving "dirty" tools to each one (as in IGAU) which isn't the best (or right) option but it's better imo. They should tackle the core game of each char instead of adding different sets of specials but I think their goal is not just balance (the way they understand it) but give players more tools to their dispossal, so one can play the same char but with the option to choose the style he prefers; you could argue that if they give them all the tools at once then you could create more styles according to your preference, and you're right indeed but in such scenario we go back to the balance issue of one char having best tools (in general) than others. What I would recommend is to have the same option Chaos Code gives us, that's it to choose a number x of specials from a set of y specials (x<y) in order to tackle the match ups and at the same time giving you freedom to create you own style.

 

[shaowebb]

Ok, read the whole thread.

Most of you SERIOUSLY need to really play other fighting games besides NRS games at a competitive level. In the end the reason why SF4 and Tekken have less counter picking is that the FIGHTING ENGINE AND MECHANICS of the game itself make it so it becomes a battle of who plays these FIGHTING ENGINES AND MECHANICS better. A Zangief player who is known to have 1,000 bad matchups just got 4th at EVO because his fundamentals in Street Fighter are strong, not because his character has broken tools like NRS games.

NRS games are just a battle of tools that each character has. Injustice has overall stiff movement and character specific crazy interactables so its JUST a battle of tools. Tekken and SF4 are a battle of who plays the core mechanics moreso than tools.

@Belial you seriously must not play SF4 or Tekken if you think those games don't have matchup specific counter picking. Most characters have bad matchups. Its just that it doesn't matter as much.

This argument is entirely way too early not because we don't know who's broken yet, but because we don't know the size of the role of engine and game mechanics.

Most of you need to stop hoping for just perfect character balance which will NEVER happen. Instead hope for a solid game engine that will make the game balanced just because it will be a battle of who plays the core game better.

@Belial @Rathalos @Jaku2011 @CamChattic @Fractured_Shadow @THTB @EGGXI @Flagg @HeroesNZ @Eddy Wang @RoGE @legion666 @MK Trickylizard @AK Stormthegates @STRYKIE @shaowebb @xWildx @Pyronn @SaltShaker @CCVengeance @cyke_out @d3v @Sami @RM_NINfan101

Some of you have it right but are just not explaining it well enough. But I hope most of you try to understand what I'm getting at here.

I get all this. Hell the stuff I'm working on is founded on the principle of making the game's core have a TON of options versus every kind of scenario. I brought it up a LOT in Injustice pre-launch and post launch that it was limiting and its footsy tools were not as robust as I felt the game could have used to make it more exciting.

You need good options vs projectiles besides jumping. Do you shoot fireballs and cancel them out? Do you jump them? Do you add dodge rolls and if so how do you time the recovery on projectiles and their damage/meter game around this option to progress through them?

Do you have air dashes? Are they universal? 8 way or flight ? Air throws? Crossups? If so what kind of AA tools do you add to deal with the air approach and how should you adjust walk speed to deal with this? Also dash, run or wavedash has to be considered based on how mobile aerial offense and projectiles are as well.

If you are on defense how do you keep from getting trapped in block infinite? Push block? What if some cast just have tools to pressure through pushblock like TvC Zero did? Just guard? Counters? Alpha counters to turn over pressuring into a risky scenario that could get you hit?

I play a LOT of fighters man. I started with Marvel and had a collection before that game from back when I was casual-ish. I get what you are saying. But we don't know any of the core tools yet in this NRS game so all we can base this discussion on is our knowledge of how they've setup their past 2 games or so which have been traditionally limited on that stuff and focused more on just using breakers, EX moves, and lots of offense to deal with stuff. MK at least has a good background of mobility with its teleportation, dashes, and throw game from MK9 to base much of this on.

We aren't sidelining the concerns you show but getting into a conversation on whether these 3 styles of play are good or bad based on only theoretical new game system tools that might make a first appearance in an NRS game is not something we can realy go into. We're just basing this on how MK9 and IGAU were and from that rough estimate of options whether this is good. In that scenario...yes it is IMO. From a CVS2 perspective on this same matter given how grooves did essentially morph other cast to perform differently it is also a good thing, but that game is so radically different in that its rosters changed mainly due to meter based tools that its not quite the same as 3 entirely different loadouts of specials.

I get you man. I feel much the same, but just remember...if we aren't bringing the rest up its because we have nothing to base this topic on other than our experience with the sort of fundamentals NRS has used in the past. That is our starting point for this conversation to base our opinions on. If those fundamentals get expanded upon with new tools perspectives will be reviewed to reflect it. For now...its all we got.

 

[aldazo]

This. Many characters have some really cool moves that are completely useless. They should really work on that

Subzero piss and Sindel levitation come to mind.

 

[aldazo]

I do think it would be a lot more fun and higher level play if you could switch styles mid-match at the expense of bar.

That's a good idea, another idea could be let people choose 4 specials from a total of 7, then during the fight you can use the one of the 3 you left out but at the expense of 1 bar of meter.

 

[Circus]

I get all this. Hell the stuff I'm working on is founded on the principle of making the game's core have a TON of options versus every kind of scenario. I brought it up a LOT in Injustice pre-launch and post launch that it was limiting and its footsy tools were not as robust as I felt the game could have used to make it more exciting.

You need good options vs projectiles besides jumping. Do you shoot fireballs and cancel them out? Do you jump them? Do you add dodge rolls and if so how do you time the recovery on projectiles and their damage/meter game around this option to progress through them?

Do you have air dashes? Are they universal? 8 way or flight ? Air throws? Crossups? If so what kind of AA tools do you add to deal with the air approach and how should you adjust walk speed to deal with this? Also dash, run or wavedash has to be considered based on how mobile aerial offense and projectiles are as well.

If you are on defense how do you keep from getting trapped in block infinite? Push block? What if some cast just have tools to pressure through pushblock like TvC Zero did? Just guard? Counters? Alpha counters to turn over pressuring into a risky scenario that could get you hit?

I play a LOT of fighters man. I started with Marvel and had a collection before that game from back when I was casual-ish. I get what you are saying. But we don't know any of the core tools yet in this NRS game so all we can base this discussion on is our knowledge of how they've setup their past 2 games or so which have been traditionally limited on that stuff and focused more on just using breakers, EX moves, and lots of offense to deal with stuff. MK at least has a good background of mobility with its teleportation, dashes, and throw game from MK9 to base much of this on.

We aren't sidelining the concerns you show but getting into a conversation on whether these 3 styles of play are good or bad based on only theoretical new game system tools that might make a first appearance in an NRS game is not something we can realy go into. We're just basing this on how MK9 and IGAU were and from that rough estimate of options whether this is good. In that scenario...yes it is IMO. From a CVS2 perspective on this same matter given how grooves did essentially morph other cast to perform differently it is also a good thing, but that game is so radically different in that its rosters changed mainly due to meter based tools that its not quite the same as 3 entirely different loadouts of specials.

I get you man. I feel much the same, but just remember...if we aren't bringing the rest up its because we have nothing to base this topic on other than our experience with the sort of fundamentals NRS has used in the past. That is our starting point for this conversation to base our opinions on. If those fundamentals get expanded upon with new tools perspectives will be reviewed to reflect it. For now...its all we got.

Exactly! This guy gets it.

Going by the past two games the OP's argument stands solid, but we really don't know how this new game will run. From projectiles clashing to focus attack, SF4 has set these systems in play to help counter situations that are universal. This is better than having individual character tools that counter situations because inevitably some tools will be better than others.

MkX has added a higher emphasis on interactable environments that are used for movement and the Stamina meter. We really can't predict how these elements will factor into the game and they are crucial because they are universal and will give added options to counter stuff like projectiles for example.

This is a new game and while its tempting to treat it like its predecessors, we have to wait before we could really make a call on how balance might be effected by having 3 variations per character.

In the end it might end up that its common that people main 1 variation solely because it fits their style even though the other variations are used by other people.

 

[RaysGoodLiquor]

The only way I can see balance problems solved in MK is to shave the cast down to 3 and call them Rock, Paper, and Scissor. While MKX isn't going to be what I expected it to be 6 months ago, I can see how the changes are going to be fun to explore, and I like that I should be able to cover my matchups with potentially one character. If anything, this should be better for spectators of the game, because tournaments won't be a display for the top 5 characters. I'm learning to put my biases aside and accept MKX for what it is, the next NRS game. If it stinks, ill bitch about it after release.

 

[Youphemism]

Subzero piss and Sindel levitation come to mind.

What about Sindel levicancels?! Build meter like hell, as if fireballs weren't enough...

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

There's nothing more detrimental to a fighting game than characters with all the tools necessary to excel at multiple roles that should be mutually exclusive (ie Kabal's zoning and rushdown capabilities in MK9) or characters who excel at certain roles to such an extent that they counter other characters completely and utterly (if pre-patch Black Adam was designed to be able to run from a balanced character like Batman, how in the hell is a slow-ass grappler like Grundy ever supposed to even almost land a hit on him?).

For true balance, characters should either be versatile but excel at nothing to the point of dominance, or excel only at a specific, defined role AND yet also have the tools necessary to deal with those characters whose own roles/tools are built specifically to counter theirs. And sometimes it's just damn hard to strengthen those tools without overpowering the character at their role (ie you give Bane a dash that helps him get in against characters he just couldn't get in on and run the risk that characters he already could get in on never ever being able to get away now).

That's why this multiple variations idea is very likely brilliant: we now have a slider on the spectrum from completely dominant at their role yet less able to deal with counters to less dominant at their role but better able to cope with those counter playstyles. If you think you can get in, nobody can quite go ham in dat ass like the solo Torr variation, but if you're worried you'll be kept out, go a little less ham when you do get in but at least be able to get there in the first place by bringing Ferra along to throw at those runaway cowards. If you combined both there'd be no stopping Ferra/Torr.

Or take this scenario: a versatile character who can rush down a bit and zone a bit can do the former better and latter worse in one variation but vice versa in the other. Raiden can shut down zoners in his teleport-happy variation or shut down rushdown characters in his lightning trap variation, but if you combined all his variations into one we'd have another Aquaman or Martian Manhunter on our hands, who can shut everyone down all the time. That's not fun at all.

I have full faith in this concept. One of the most beautiful things I've seen as of late in a fighting game was Snake Eyez' Zangief at Evo this year. He had to play his ass off to get in against players and characters made to keep him out, but he was able to do it with the tools he had and it paid off in dividends when he did. I want that in this game, not a player the caliber of Tyrant unable to even do a goddamn thing against Hawkgirl with Grundy in a grand finals match. If multiple variations increase the odds of us all being to deal with whatever tries to stop us from doing what we do with our characters, I'm all for it. Let my Bane trade some of that armor for a chance to even catch Zatanna in the first place.

 

[TotteryManx]

There are some people outside of this community that are really concerned about variations. Some are worried that they are over complicating things and making it more difficult to learn the game. I like the idea of variations since I've played a NRS game before, but they do raise a good point. Being someone new and interested in MK could see each character has 3 styles to learn and view it as a daunting task, essentially turning them off from the game. We want our community to grow, not turn people off from learning. With all that said, I'm excited about it all.

 

[Zoidberg747]

There's nothing more detrimental to a fighting game than characters with all the tools necessary to excel at multiple roles that should be mutually exclusive (ie Kabal's zoning and rushdown capabilities in MK9) or characters who excel at certain roles to such an extent that they counter other characters completely and utterly (if pre-patch Black Adam was designed to be able to run from a balanced character like Batman, how in the hell is a slow-ass grappler like Grundy ever supposed to even almost land a hit on him?).

For true balance, characters should either be versatile but excel at nothing to the point of dominance, or excel only at a specific, defined role AND yet also have the tools necessary to deal with those characters whose own roles/tools are built specifically to counter theirs. And sometimes it's just damn hard to strengthen those tools without overpowering the character at their role (ie you give Bane a dash that helps him get in against characters he just couldn't get in on and run the risk that characters he already could get in on never ever being able to get away now).

That's why this multiple variations idea is very likely brilliant: we now have a slider on the spectrum from completely dominant at their role yet less able to deal with counters to less dominant at their role but better able to cope with those counter playstyles. If you think you can get in, nobody can quite go ham in dat ass like the solo Torr variation, but if you're worried you'll be kept out, go a little less ham when you do get in but at least be able to get there in the first place by bringing Ferra along to throw at those runaway cowards. If you combined both there'd be no stopping Ferra/Torr.

Or take this scenario: a versatile character who can rush down a bit and zone a bit can do the former better and latter worse in one variation but vice versa in the other. Raiden can shut down zoners in his teleport-happy variation or shut down rushdown characters in his lightning trap variation, but if you combined all his variations into one we'd have another Aquaman or Martian Manhunter on our hands, who can shut everyone down all the time. That's not fun at all.

I have full faith in this concept. One of the most beautiful things I've seen as of late in a fighting game was Snake Eyez' Zangief at Evo this year. He had to play his ass off to get in against players and characters made to keep him out, but he was able to do it with the tools he had and it paid off in dividends when he did. I want that in this game, not a player the caliber of Tyrant unable to even do a goddamn thing against Hawkgirl with Grundy in a grand finals match. If multiple variations increase the odds of us all being to deal with whatever tries to stop us from doing what we do with our characters, I'm all for it. Let my Bane trade some of that armor for a chance to even catch Zatanna in the first place.

This.

As long as you may make variation picks blind the system should work. If someone wants to counterpick you with another character they run the risk of you picking a variation that can deal with that character.

Counterpicking in some form exists in all games. Xian last year counterpicked PR Balrog with Hakan in Street Fighter top 8. It happens and will happen in most games.

 

[WakeUp DP]

There are some people outside of this community that are really concerned about variations. Some are worried that they are over complicating things and making it more difficult to learn the game. I like the idea of variations since I've played a NRS game before, but they do raise a good point. Being someone new and interested in MK could see each character has 3 styles to learn and view it as a daunting task, essentially turning them off from the game. We want our community to grow, not turn people off from learning. With all that said, I'm excited about it all.

Outside this community like capcom community? I'm sure if they played sf alpha 3 or umvc3 they wouldn't find it that complicated tbh.

 

[TotteryManx]

This.

As long as you may make variation picks blind the system should work. If someone wants to counterpick you with another character they run the risk of you picking a variation that can deal with that character.

Counterpicking in some form exists in all games. Xian last year counterpicked PR Balrog with Hakan in Street Fighter top 8. It happens and will happen in most games.

A blind pick for every single game? I can imagine how bad that will make us look from the get go lol.

 

[TotteryManx]

Outside this community like capcom community? I'm sure if they played sf alpha 3 or umvc3 they wouldn't find it that complicated tbh.

I've been noticing a lot of comments for articles that mention what I have. I've even seen it on other forums. I don't know what games they play, but I'm pretty sure they are casual at heart about fighting games, but the ultimate goal is to have the community grow. That won't happen if people are already feeling intimidated about the game due to a possible learning curve.

 

[Zoidberg747]

There are some people outside of this community that are really concerned about variations. Some are worried that they are over complicating things and making it more difficult to learn the game. I like the idea of variations since I've played a NRS game before, but they do raise a good point. Being someone new and interested in MK could see each character has 3 styles to learn and view it as a daunting task, essentially turning them off from the game. We want our community to grow, not turn people off from learning. With all that said, I'm excited about it all.

This may have more merit if NRS games were not incredibly easy to learn. The only thing this would really affect is having to have more MU knowledge but even then the variations are not going to be so different that it is learning three entirely different MUs. The characters might have different combos and you might have to remember a couple more moves but it wouldnt compare to something like Tekken where you to learn like 50 characters. Im pretty sure one variation for each character is going to be balanced enough that they can survive on that one until they have mastered the character as well.

A blind pick for every single game? I can imagine how bad that will make us look from the get go lol.

A. No one should give a shit "how we look". People are going to hate on the game because it isnt Capcom, dont make their opinions more powerful than they should be.

B. It would get pretty dumb if the opponent knew what variation you changed to and just changed theirs. I guess that could be fixed with variation lock though.

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

Plus three Quan Chi's is better than one, because even if Woolay sucks at least Abadoosay might not.

 

[WakeUp DP]

I've been noticing a lot of comments for articles that mention what I have. I've even seen it on other forums. I don't know what games they play, but I'm pretty sure they are casual at heart about fighting games, but the ultimate goal is to have the community grow. That won't happen if people are already feeling intimidated about the game due to a possible learning curve.

Nrs games have a level of depth to it but its mostly casual friendly.

The arent fadc or one frame link type of combos.

Special moves and combos for the most part are very easy. They dont to learn all variations to play at a low/casual level so they shouldn't feel intimidated plus nrs is adding a story and a bunch of useless modes with casuals on mind.

 

[Iustinus]

I like variations.

 

[Rathalos]

A blind pick for every single game? I can imagine how bad that will make us look from the get go lol.

Picking a variation should work like how KOF team selection works.
It should always be blind, you push a button to choose the variation you want, so the opponent doesn't get to see.

Example.
R1 Variation 1
R2 Variation 2
L1 Variation 3

 

[just_2swift]

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[BRUTALITY]

@Belial is right. Instead of having undivided well rounded characters with balanced moves lists, you splitting their aspects into 3. It decreases balance.

Take Ryu, often claimed to be a well balanced character. His variations are as follows:

1. Hadouken Ryu - No Shoryuken, No Tatsu, but can zone you out with fireball. No safe wakeup because no Shoryu so free to rushdown.

2. Shoryuken Ryu - No Hadou or Tatsu, but has access to his FADC Shoryu combos and has the Shoryu wakeup, but no mobility and no counter zoning so free to zoning.

3. Tatsu Ryu - Now has advancing special which slips through some zoning and has air tatsus for mobility but he has no damage ir defense.

None of these versions of the character alone are well rounded but together they make a fairly balanced character. With the combination if these three elements in the ine character, you have a fundamentally broken character, at least in Ryu's case.

Is it possible to have 3 variations of a character remain well rounded in their own right? If so, it would suggest they all have the tools, so then, why not just make different characters? What is the point of making then 'variations'?

It is important to note that character does not need to be well balanced ro be competitive. Look at Injustice, almost any character can make top 8, but because the characters are NOT well balanced you have the crazy matchups which plague the mid tiers such as Lex v Sinestro, both viable characters, but this is widely regarded an imbalanced matchup for Lex. However Sinestro himself also has some imbalanced matchups as well. Such was the case for many viable IGAU characters - Hawkgirl comes to mind.

The 3 variations is a gimmick and the question remains if all 3 variations are balanced + well rounded - meaning they do not have a crutch, they are not imbalanced, then why make them variations at all when they could be characters? If it is because they are not different enough to the original design, then why make variations at all?

 

[khrome]

I think they're good because instead of mirror matches, we get more possiblities, so someone might be good with Raiden variation A and his opponent might be good with Raiden variation B, so it will be nice to watch rather than Raiden vs Raiden.

 

[xxsledgrenxx]

this thread is pretty stupid

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

that Ryu example was pure shit. Taking away 2/3 of the very few special moves a versatile character has that make him versatile in the first place for each variation is an exaggeration of the system in play. In MKX they're trying to add to that versatility in three different manners: Raiden can either add the utility of blowing up zoners with teleports or the utility of keeping rushdown characters out with lightning traps, or give up those ADDITIONAL utility tools to simply add damage. That's like giving Tatsu Ryu more range and angles for his hurricane kicks or Hadouken Ryu an air fireball for more zoning capabilities, not taking away the rest of his other tools for each variation.