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MKX "3-styles" - good or bad?

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Have you played the game? How the hell we will know all this will going to turn out?
We don't know, we can just (as you've pointed out) speculate on how it may turn out if one or another way is taken, that's what we do.
Only thing we can almost safely assume is that core design won't change though.
 
I agree with your position, but I feel that his point being along the lines of: "this is what NRS is making and this is where you will probably be looking for solace after playing another 3-7 entire evening".


Well, if going from zoning to rushdown is "slight change to playstlye", then okay, I suppose...


No, we are just discussing base design options: a metric ton of specialist characters versus fewer characters with more options.
Thats precisely what I meant, glad some people get It
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
At the end of the day, NRS is trying to promote character variety while making it fun. This way people can much more easily be character specialists and be successful in tournaments. I don't see how this is is going to be a problem, other than people having to train a little harder for all 3 types of the same character. That, to me, just sounds more fun and something NEW!
 

Sami

Warrior
Revenge meter, you basically get rewarded with a comeback mechanic for playing shitty and getting hit more than you have to.
Mash happy dps and reversal attacks, you can pretty much mash dp in between block strings etc etc.
A few things:

1) SF4+ has two meters - the super meter and the ultra meter. The ultra meter does indeed fill up by getting hit and gives access to a potentially game changing move. The super meter fills up by being aggressive. Thus, while someone being beat will get access to their ultra early, their attacker will be filling their super bar quickly allowing for more ex special moves for more damage or continued pressure.

2) If the person "playing shitty" lands their ultra (remember it is not a guaranteed 100% safe move and good players can bait them out), chances are they've just given the better opponent access to their own ultra move. So now you have a good opponent with probably lots of super meter from being good (unless they already blew it for big combos) and access to their ultra.

3) If you get out a DP between blocked moves then either the blockstring had natural holes in it (then it isn't a block-string and should never be used by anyone with an invincible reversal) or the block-string was executed poorly (in which case the attacker isn't as good as you're making out). And if you start mashing DP during every blockstring, these can be easily baited and punished hard.

SF4 can be played very tactical but still very scrub friendly in most peoples opinions tbh
Most people are complete scrubs when it comes to fighting games and think their bad habits are high-level play.



Also, I'm seeing the "you can only have a balanced game by having 1 character" arguement crop up again. Bullshit. Look at what is considered to be the 5-5 match-ups in whatever game you play and tell me if both characters are identical in those MUs. Unless it's a mirror match, the answer is more than likely no.

Please stop preaching it. Just because some devs have said it's true doesn't mean it is, and the whole bad match-ups make the game diverse argument is a bullshit cop-out on balance, especially when you run events with money on the line. "rly guise itz ment 2b liek dis. akoooma winz teh big buks".
 
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Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
At the end of the day, NRS is trying to promote character variety while making it fun. This way people can much more easily be character specialists and be successful in tournaments. I don't see how this is is going to be a problem, other than people having to train a little harder for all 3 types of the same character. That, to me, just sounds more fun and something NEW!
exactly this.
/thread
 

d3v

SRK
Stop thinking that is what i'm thinking

I know it isn't new...... but to ...... 99% of the people who are going to play MK it is new.
Which is a horrible excuse.

Ignoring the lessons and examples from the past does nothing to help the community.

Counter picking is bad ..... the fact of the matter is that for some reason we all just go along with the "winner has to now deal with some type of handicap"
Which is why people gravitate towards the best characters.

If both players are able to hidden select whomever they want at all times..... would you be so willing to counter pick?
Hidden select does not get rid of counter picking, especially if you know who your opponent plays.

Take for example, Filipino Champ vs ApologyMan at Evo2014. Champ knew that ApologyMan's would be using his Firebrand/Doom/Super Skrull team that gives his usual teams trouble. So what does he do, he runs his special counter team of Morrigan/Doom/Magneto right out the door.

The only way to eliminate counter picking is to enforce character locks in tournaments, and I'm sure nobody wants that.
 
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WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
A few things:

1) SF4+ has two meters - the super meter and the ultra meter. The ultra meter does indeed fill up by getting hit and gives access to a potentially game changing move. The super meter fills up by being aggressive. Thus, while someone being beat will get access to their ultra early, their attacker will be filling their super bar quickly allowing for more ex special moves for more damage or continued pressure.

2) If the person "playing shitty" lands their ultra (remember it is not a guaranteed 100% safe move and good players can bait them out), chances are they've just given the better opponent access to their own ultra move. So now you have a good opponent with probably lots of super meter from being good (unless they already blew it for big combos) and access to their ultra.

3) If you get out a DP between blocked moves then either the blockstring had natural holes in it (then it isn't a block-string and should never be used by anyone with an invincible reversal) or the block-string was executed poorly (in which case the attacker isn't as good as you're making out). And if you start mashing DP during every blockstring, these can be easily baited and punished hard.



Most people are complete scrubs when it comes to fighting games and think their bad habits are high-level play.



Also, I'm seeing the "you can only have a balanced game by having 1 character" arguement crop up again. Bullshit. Look at what is considered to be the 5-5 match-ups in whatever game you play and tell me if both characters are identical in those MUs. Unless it's a mirror match, the answer is more than likely no.

Please stop preaching it. Just because some devs have said it's true doesn't mean it is, and the whole bad match-ups make the game diverse argument is a bullshit cop-out on balance, especially when you run events with money on the line. "rly guise itz ment 2b liek dis. akoooma winz teh big buks".
I love how state your opinions as facts.

I have played sf4 before, dont need the long explanation of how the meter mechanics work lol.

Ultra meter is a comeback mechanic designed for low level players to have or feel like thy have a chance.

DP fadc was scrubby, only now after 4-5 years they have made it a little punishable. Before it required 2 bar of meter but was 100% safe on block which made it bullshit and you know it.
 

Treadmill

Champion
Seems like a number of people are treating the different variations as completely new characters, they aren't.

They will mostly share normals and numerous specials.

So having a tier list for individual variations is not logical.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Seems like a number of people are treating the different variations as completely new characters, they aren't.

They will mostly share normals and numerous specials.

So having a tier list for individual variations is not logical.
agreed

@d3v I actually agree. Not being educated is not an excuse. However, not understanding that your audience (this forum) isn't educated in that manner is also not an excuse to bash them. Just educate them on what actually happens in those games. That is all you can do.
 
I would rather for someone to potentially pick their poison than for everyone to run to the most op character they can find ..characters will have close matchups and people are scared haha
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Seems like a number of people are treating the different variations as completely new characters, they aren't.

They will mostly share normals and numerous specials.

So having a tier list for individual variations is not logical.
There's some truth to it though. You just can't expect, say, Ninjutsu and Inferno share playstyle, strategy and matchups, and my guess that they will want to use even their universals slightly different (say, in one case that may be often-used mixup option, in another - a wakeup tool mostly, if it's good as on ofc).
Since both players are locked with that at character selection screen, it's fair to consider them different characters, albeit one being easier to secondary if you main another.
 

Treadmill

Champion
There's some truth to it though. You just can't expect, say, Ninjutsu and Inferno share playstyle, strategy and matchups, and my guess that they will want to use even their universals slightly different (say, in one case that may be often-used mixup option, in another - a wakeup tool mostly, if it's good as on ofc).
Since both players are locked with that at character selection screen, it's fair to consider them different characters, albeit one being easier to secondary if you main another.
I understand that point. Tier list will absolutely require more thought.

However mk9 was heavily footsie based. Which was predominately normals and pokes. Some mu numbers weer decided by the size of characters hurt boxes and how they interacted with normals.

Hopefully the variations will help with mu's as well. But adding 2-3 special attacks will not change literally everything about the character.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
I understand that point. Tier list will absolutely require more thought.

However mk9 was heavily footsie based. Which was predominately normals and pokes. Some mu numbers weer decided by the size of characters hurt boxes and how they interacted with normals.

Hopefully the variations will help with mu's as well. But adding 2-3 special attacks will not change literally everything about the character.
That's good point, but it's possible that something like "weapon styles" may end up affecting spacing game heavily in a way normals do, if not outright having different normals/strings. That's something to consider. Besides, I'm fairly confident that 2-3 moves, while not making entire character different, may force you to make radical changes in your gameplan if you, say, suddenly get something that looks like Noob's zoning package replaced by short-ranged pressure tools / launchers. That would make those styles more differentiated one from another than possibly some MK9 characters were lol.

Don't get me wrong, if that works in the end, I'm ok with that. I'm fine if this game will be about exploring MU's right 'till NRS will make another, but it's just one approach and this thread's idea is about possibilities of another one.
 

RM_NINfan101

Nine Inch Nails fan from Metro Detroit, Michigan
I love how state your opinions as facts.

I have played sf4 before, dont need the long explanation of how the meter mechanics work lol.

Ultra meter is a comeback mechanic designed for low level players to have or feel like thy have a chance.

DP fadc was scrubby, only now after 4-5 years they have made it a little punishable. Before it required 2 bar of meter but was 100% safe on block which made it bullshit and you know it.
*groan*

I hate when I read posts like this. The damn games you play have a comeback mechanic in there already, so what makes SF4 so different? Revenge Gauge, Super meter, Breakers, Wagers, HD Drive cancel meters, Overdrives... X-Factor... So many other damn things. Face it, comeback mechanics are here to stay. To say one of these things is scrubby, means they're all scrubby. Because you can't just single one out and leave the rest alone. That's the most biased bullshit you can do.

You sound like someone who simply just... Wait for it... Can't level up. I'm sick of seeing games just bashed on this forum for the most asinine reasons.

As for FADC DP, in AE2012 I didn't mind it. Why? Because it took two bars of meter to make a bad option safe. Meaning they likely at this point only have one bar of meter or two if they had full super. In AE2012, supers meant alot more than they did in Ultra.

By the way, FADC DP is still safe on a backdash in Ultra. Stick to NRS games, they're what you know best.
 

cyke_out

Warrior
Seems like a number of people are treating the different variations as completely new characters, they aren't.

They will mostly share normals and numerous specials.

So having a tier list for individual variations is not logical.
There is a game called CvS2, in this game, each character has 6 different versions that affect the way they play, while still keeping the same normals and specials.

The tier lists in that game was made in two different ways, the most common was just including each characters best version, like A groove bison or C groove sagat, the other less common way was listing every single character version separately.

So even in that game, where each character variation kept the same normals and specials, the tier lists did divide the characters and listed them by variation.

The idea of variations or different takes on a character is not new and if people would familiarize themselves with past great games, it might put an end to some of the hysterical freak outs about MKX.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
The problem is that you don't realize that, to remove unique matchups is to create what is basically a flat game. What happens is that you just approach almost every matchup in the exact same way instead of having to adjust and figure out how to deal with it.
This isn't really true though. Most of the time even with a truly even matchup, it doesn't become even until you adjust your playstyle to the opposing character's tools. But the difference is, in a more balanced game once you make the adjustments you have a better chance of being competitive, rather than Jade vs. Kenshi in MK9 where you might as well forget about winning the set unless your opponent is making massive mistakes.

It's not so much about making it 100% even as making it so that most matchups are in reach if the player is good enough, which leads to much more exciting/diverse tournament play.

For example, the fact that Catwoman (considered to be towards the weaker end if the spectrum in IGAU) has a bunch of "manageable" matchups even when she loses them means that we get to see her in Top 8, and that's cool.
 
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d3v

SRK
This isn't really true though. Most of the time even with a truly even matchup, it doesn't become even until you adjust your playstyle to the opposing character's tools. But the difference is, in a more balanced game once you make the adjustments you have a better chance of being competitive, rather than Jade vs. Kenshi in MK9 where you might as well forget about winning the set unless your opponent is making massive mistakes.

It's not so much about making it 100% even as making it so that most matchups are in reach if the player is good enough, which leads to much more exciting/diverse tournament play.

For example, the fact that Catwoman (considered to be towards the weaker end if the spectrum in IGAU) has a bunch of "manageable" matchups even when she loses them means that we get to see her in Top 8, and that's cool.
The problem with this example is that you're still looking at a character with bad matchups, even if they're manageable. The ideal would be to have characters with a combination of both good and bad matchups - what Seth Killian would to call "meta-balance". Ideally, you would have this meta-balance across the entire roster so that even a bottom tier character would have good matchups in their favor. An example of this would be Super SFII Turbo where you had low tier characters with favorable matchups against some high tier ones but at the same time also had devastatingly un-winnable ones as well. To quote from the SRK wiki.
Super Turbo is more about matchups than definitive tiers. Every N.Character is competitive and several O.Characters are competitive as well (though not all of them). There is no character that is completely excluded from tournament level play because they aren't effectively competitive. While Dhalsim and O.Sagat are clearly better overall than Cammy and N.Hawk, the top tier characters are still beatable, and the low tier characters are still capable of winning. That being said, the odds of seeing Dhalsim and O.Sagat in the later rounds of a tournament, are noticeably higher than seeing a T.Hawk, Blanka, or Cammy player make their way to the finals. But unlike many other fighting games, the lowest tiered characters in ST still make appearances in tournament finals, no one character is completely shutout. In retrospect it is truly amazing to see how ST has evolved into a more balanced game than Capcom ever imagined.
The only exeception to this off course being Akuma, who was never designed to be a "fair" character in the first place.

This does mean however that ST is very matchup and counterpick heavy. And most players prefer to learn multiple characters. For example, Daigo who usually uses shotos, actually has Balrog/Boxer as his secondary character in ST.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
The problem with this example is that you're still looking at a character with bad matchups, even if they're manageable. The ideal would be to have characters with a combination of both good and bad matchups - what Seth Killian would to call "meta-balance". Ideally, you would have this meta-balance across the entire roster so that even a bottom tier character would have good matchups in their favor. An example of this would be Super SFII Turbo where you had low tier characters with favorable matchups against some high tier ones but at the same time also had devastatingly un-winnable ones as well. To quote from the SRK wiki.

The only exeception to this off course being Akuma, who was never designed to be a "fair" character in the first place.

This does mean however that ST is very matchup and counterpick heavy. And most players prefer to learn multiple characters. For example, Daigo who usually uses shotos, actually has Balrog/Boxer as his secondary character in ST.
Yeah, I think the main issue with these specific games has not necessarily been the number of good and bad matchups, but how good and bad those matchups actually are. Most people who are character loyalists would rather have a character who loses 6-4 to the top few members of the cast, than one who is easily counterpicked in 7-3's and 8-2's with several common characters.

That's the difference between Catwoman (for the most part) and say, MK9 Noob Saibot. A character that often makes you respect his gameplan even when he loses is far more enjoyable to play competitively.
 

insignis

Apprentice
Seems like a number of people are treating the different variations as completely new characters, they aren't.

They will mostly share normals and numerous specials.

So having a tier list for individual variations is not logical.
Did you watch gameplay videos? These variations are not just 2-3 specials. These variations are different combos, mix-ups, footsies, etc.
 

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
*groan*

I hate when I read posts like this. The damn games you play have a comeback mechanic in there already, so what makes SF4 so different? Revenge Gauge, Super meter, Breakers, Wagers, HD Drive cancel meters, Overdrives... X-Factor... So many other damn things. Face it, comeback mechanics are here to stay. To say one of these things is scrubby, means they're all scrubby. Because you can't just single one out and leave the rest alone. That's the most biased bullshit you can do.

You sound like someone who simply just... Wait for it... Can't level up. I'm sick of seeing games just bashed on this forum for the most asinine reasons.

As for FADC DP, in AE2012 I didn't mind it. Why? Because it took two bars of meter to make a bad option safe. Meaning they likely at this point only have one bar of meter or two if they had full super. In AE2012, supers meant alot more than they did in Ultra.

By the way, FADC DP is still safe on a backdash in Ultra. Stick to NRS games, they're what you know best.
The diferent between SF4 and MK9 is that sf4 has a dedicated bar of meter just for ultras and the more you get hit the more damage it does. In mk9 the meter is shared with breakers, enhanced moves for more invincibility or armor etc. And the X-ray does the same amount of damage, it doesnt matter if you have 10% or 80% of a life bar.

X-Ray si still meant to be a comeback mechanic for low level but it was irrelevant at a high level.

I like and played sf4 for a few years but I'm not blind to what makes the game what.

Haha play me on xbl. Add me. Lets play sf4 and see how much of a superior player you are hahahah
 
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d3v

SRK
Yeah, I think the main issue with these specific games has not necessarily been the number of good and bad matchups, but how good and bad those matchups actually are. Most people who are character loyalists would rather have a character who loses 6-4 to the top few members of the cast, than one who is easily counterpicked in 7-3's and 8-2's with several common characters.

That's the difference between Catwoman (for the most part) and say, MK9 Noob Saibot. A character that often makes you respect his gameplan even when he loses is far more enjoyable to play competitively.
Well, it depends on how you look at it. From what I've noticed, there do seem to be more character loyalists here than in, say SRK. But for some, learning more characters and being able to see and use a good variety of them at tournaments is enjoyable (and is IMO, also a sign of someone who truly loves the game).
 

trufenix

bye felicia
X-Ray si still meant to be a comeback mechanic for low level player but at a high level is was mostly useless.
xray is in no way a comeback mechanic. A comeback mechanic is only available when or somehow enhanced by losing, like ultra, like xfactor, like rage, and to a lesser degree like clash. Just "losing" doesn't grant you an xray like all those others, xray is just something else to do with your meter. If xray's are comeback mechanics, so are ex moves and breakers.