MKX "3-styles" - good or bad?

[trufenix]

So according to you having different supers doesn't make the char completely different but having different specials would do. I think your definition of what makes a char unique is subjective (obviously, same for all people) but I do think the majority of us will consider the variation just that, variations of the same char and not completely different chars.

Your definition is far more subjective than mine. I'd like to know where your line is. normals? walk speed? health? # of specials? supers? Some combination? How many? My definition is very simple; the second the change alters the matchup its a new character. Ryu / Evil Ryu are different characters. Ryu (U1) and Ryu (U2) are not. The end. Doesn't matter what the lifebar says, doesn't matter what the polygons or artwork looks like. If Kabal had a variation with his mask off that traded gas blasts for a low command grab, you wouldn't dare call him the same character nor would you judge his match ups the same way. Mask-off Kabal would be a COMPLETELY different ballgame. Rune-less Quan. Trident Rush-less Aquaman. OH Teleportless MMH. Simple. one move changes that would COMPLETELY alter the tier list, all of which fit within what we already know about MKX variations. Should we really be lumping them all together?

MKX already looks to be the same way. Only one of Raiden's variants has a teleport. One of Ferra/Torr's has no projectiles. Only one Sub has clone. One Cassie has unblockable homing missiles. And one of Scorpion's variants has a completely different set of normals. You're telling me these tools aren't going to change matchups? Are none of these changes as drastic as slightly less health slightly faster normals evil ryu? You're telling me its not a completely different ballgame if I beat (or lose to you) with a version of a character that has a clone or a teleport or no projectiles vs one that doesn't?

 

[THTB]

In the end it might end up that its common that people main 1 variation solely because it fits their style even though the other variations are used by other people.

I'd be more surprised if that didn't happen.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

I was actually thinking about this recently and I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the 3 style system. I'm not sure if that's the old school in me or not, but I hope NRS proves me wrong . It might make or break the game for me.

 

[Zoidberg747]

@Belial is right. Instead of having undivided well rounded characters with balanced moves lists, you splitting their aspects into 3. It decreases balance.

Take Ryu, often claimed to be a well balanced character. His variations are as follows:

1. Hadouken Ryu - No Shoryuken, No Tatsu, but can zone you out with fireball. No safe wakeup because no Shoryu so free to rushdown.

2. Shoryuken Ryu - No Hadou or Tatsu, but has access to his FADC Shoryu combos and has the Shoryu wakeup, but no mobility and no counter zoning so free to zoning.

3. Tatsu Ryu - Now has advancing special which slips through some zoning and has air tatsus for mobility but he has no damage ir defense.

None of these versions of the character alone are well rounded but together they make a fairly balanced character. With the combination if these three elements in the ine character, you have a fundamentally broken character, at least in Ryu's case.

Is it possible to have 3 variations of a character remain well rounded in their own right? If so, it would suggest they all have the tools, so then, why not just make different characters? What is the point of making then 'variations'?

It is important to note that character does not need to be well balanced ro be competitive. Look at Injustice, almost any character can make top 8, but because the characters are NOT well balanced you have the crazy matchups which plague the mid tiers such as Lex v Sinestro, both viable characters, but this is widely regarded an imbalanced matchup for Lex. However Sinestro himself also has some imbalanced matchups as well. Such was the case for many viable IGAU characters - Hawkgirl comes to mind.

The 3 variations is a gimmick and the question remains if all 3 variations are balanced + well rounded - meaning they do not have a crutch, they are not imbalanced, then why make them variations at all when they could be characters? If it is because they are not different enough to the original design, then why make variations at all?

The problem with this logic is Capcom did not design Ryu to be three separate characters. NRS is designing the game around this mechanic, so they wouldnt give one character an anti-air, they all would have an anti-air.

I think the idea is giving every character an access to all styles of gameplay. Say you really liked Baraka in MK9 but you were more of a rushdown/offensive player. Baraka's rushdown in MK9 wasnt good so you wouldnt be able to play him without changing your playstyle. In MKX if you really like a character aesthetically the variations make sure you have access to a playstyle you enjoy. So if you really like Ferra/Torr, you can have access to a variation that encourages more rushdown, one that encourages a more defensive/footsie style, and one that is a mix of both. That is the idea behind it I think, making sure everyone can play the characters they want regardless of their playstyle.

This isnt to say the idea couldnt bomb or cause balance issues, but I like the idea and would like to see how it plays out. Considering this is the main thing they are promoting about the game I highly doubt they will change it, so all that is left to do is wait and see how it plays out.

 

[shaowebb]

Exactly! This guy gets it.

Going by the past two games the OP's argument stands solid, but we really don't know how this new game will run. From projectiles clashing to focus attack, SF4 has set these systems in play to help counter situations that are universal. This is better than having individual character tools that counter situations because inevitably some tools will be better than others.

MkX has added a higher emphasis on interactable environments that are used for movement and the Stamina meter. We really can't predict how these elements will factor into the game and they are crucial because they are universal and will give added options to counter stuff like projectiles for example.

This is a new game and while its tempting to treat it like its predecessors, we have to wait before we could really make a call on how balance might be effected by having 3 variations per character.

In the end it might end up that its common that people main 1 variation solely because it fits their style even though the other variations are used by other people.

Thanks for the support. Don't forget though that SF4 had its fair run of issues too though. Frame data on hit/block stun and priority alotment got out of hand in several editions and they are only now addressing things like the wakeup issues.

Its funny...I played some anime fighter years ago and it had this meter blow system as an option alongside of delayed wakeups. You could delay or you could blow a bar on wakeup to force opponents to neutral screen position, but it meter locked you for a few moments so you couldn't use other meter stuff. Really odd but never had wakeup issues. Bit overkill IMO though. Tekken probably has the best wakeup system but it only works for Tekken given all the attack options out of wakeup and their rock/paper/scissors sort of mind games.

Biggest things to really push threads on IMO in hopes of elevating the MK game.

WAKEUPS-push for more options than just armor. Rolls, delayed wakeup...whatever. Just push on this hard to try and offset vortex potential
OPTIONS ON ZONING- there should be more options than block dash and jump in. I'm not saying projectiles should all cancel each other out because it seems wrong for MK, but to mitigate the tradition of them not cancelling their needs to be more universal options vs them IMO to add more depth to approaching these situations than meet them with jump ins, block dash, or beat them with better offense from afar.
OPTIONS ON DEFENSE- again to mitigate vortex potential you need tools when under pressure. NRS went a unique route on corner pressure by using a combination of interactibles and pushblock in IGAU, but I think adding alpha counters or just guarding would also be beneficial as well
OPTIONS ON MOBILITY-MK ...well its okay but Block dashing is a bit dumb, but its fast and it kept the game out of being a zoner fest so it worked for MK from what I saw. Now though it appears we have the run button back which makes folks need to be more careful. Teleports abounded in MK9 and we've seen some so far so you likely wont be locked out a screen away with most folks in MKX at least. Still I like the idea of NRS studying tools like hops, super hops, and fast fall stuff like KoF and air dash fighters use because it allows your jump ins to be less readable and to fake out and bait more. Plus KoF 60 frame dodge rolls are great too. At low level they get thrown a lot, but they are so long that they generally get blown up if you just raw approach projectiles or neutral with them...but turn them loose vs a dash up or an offensive tool and its a sexy mixup item to consider. It also mitigates wakeup and corner traps a lot too. I don't know what tools out of those they may find the most appropriate to the things they have in mind , but I think we should talk more on such mobility options from other games we've seen to give NRS ideas to consider.


I said all this for IGAU too though, but we did see pushblock at least so perhaps they heard some of us then.

For now with what we've seen...3 styles would have been great for MK9. MKX is its own beast and we don't know much on it yet so we can't give a solid answer, but if its build off MK9's system heavily then its a good thing they exist. Still...push those green topics hard folks. It'd be good to draw attention to these sort of solutions to issues that occur in fighters and how they speed up, slow down, or strengthen/weaken types of play.

 

[Hini]

They don't even necessarily have to have a weakness... if the games mechanics are good, then just having strengths can make the game balanced.... as long as the strength isn't exposing something outside the realm of the mechanics.

When we say weakness we rather more mean that they dont excell at everything, not necessarily that they have to fucking suck at something.

There's nothing more detrimental to a fighting game than characters with all the tools necessary to excel at multiple roles that should be mutually exclusive (ie Kabal's zoning and rushdown capabilities in MK9) or characters who excel at certain roles to such an extent that they counter other characters completely and utterly (if pre-patch Black Adam was designed to be able to run from a balanced character like Batman, how in the hell is a slow-ass grappler like Grundy ever supposed to even almost land a hit on him?).

For true balance, characters should either be versatile but excel at nothing to the point of dominance, or excel only at a specific, defined role AND yet also have the tools necessary to deal with those characters whose own roles/tools are built specifically to counter theirs. And sometimes it's just damn hard to strengthen those tools without overpowering the character at their role (ie you give Bane a dash that helps him get in against characters he just couldn't get in on and run the risk that characters he already could get in on never ever being able to get away now).

That's why this multiple variations idea is very likely brilliant: we now have a slider on the spectrum from completely dominant at their role yet less able to deal with counters to less dominant at their role but better able to cope with those counter playstyles. If you think you can get in, nobody can quite go ham in dat ass like the solo Torr variation, but if you're worried you'll be kept out, go a little less ham when you do get in but at least be able to get there in the first place by bringing Ferra along to throw at those runaway cowards. If you combined both there'd be no stopping Ferra/Torr.

Or take this scenario: a versatile character who can rush down a bit and zone a bit can do the former better and latter worse in one variation but vice versa in the other. Raiden can shut down zoners in his teleport-happy variation or shut down rushdown characters in his lightning trap variation, but if you combined all his variations into one we'd have another Aquaman or Martian Manhunter on our hands, who can shut everyone down all the time. That's not fun at all.

I have full faith in this concept. One of the most beautiful things I've seen as of late in a fighting game was Snake Eyez' Zangief at Evo this year. He had to play his ass off to get in against players and characters made to keep him out, but he was able to do it with the tools he had and it paid off in dividends when he did. I want that in this game, not a player the caliber of Tyrant unable to even do a goddamn thing against Hawkgirl with Grundy in a grand finals match. If multiple variations increase the odds of us all being to deal with whatever tries to stop us from doing what we do with our characters, I'm all for it. Let my Bane trade some of that armor for a chance to even catch Zatanna in the first place.

 

[Hini]

that Ryu example was pure shit. Taking away 2/3 of the very few special moves a versatile character has that make him versatile in the first place for each variation is an exaggeration of the system in play. In MKX they're trying to add to that versatility in three different manners: Raiden can either add the utility of blowing up zoners with teleports or the utility of keeping rushdown characters out with lightning traps, or give up those ADDITIONAL utility tools to simply add damage. That's like giving Tatsu Ryu more range and angles for his hurricane kicks or Hadouken Ryu an air fireball for more zoning capabilities, not taking away the rest of his other tools for each variation.

Man I dont even need to be in this thread, you're just doing all this hard work for me.

 

[Mst]

Counterpicking - I dont think the person which counterpicks cares if he uses a completly new Character or just a other version of a Character the game gonna have a similar amount of counterpick each game with (insert number of MKX Characters *3) gonna have.

Good way to Test moves for new Characters - I think its a really good way to test different moves and playstyles for the new Characters they introduce with MKX. So they can choose what they think worked best for future games (in case they stop using the 3 variation system for other games)

Giving Players a chance to play a Character which has a playstyle they usually dont like - Character X is usually in all games a more passiv Character but gets a more offensive version or vice versa with the system so if i like Character X but im a more offensive Player i can use that version.

Balancing - There will definitely be balance problems over time which would most likely happen in any game with a huge amount of Characters which are different from each other. But balance problems can most likely be fixed overtime depending on the time range the game gonna receive.

So overall i see 2 good points, one point which is neither bad or good for me and one thing which can be fixed depending on the time of balance changes. I like it and i also like that some of the old Characters get something fresh with the variation system.

 

[Circus]

Thanks for the support. Don't forget though that SF4 had its fair run of issues too though. Frame data on hit/block stun and priority alotment got out of hand in several editions and they are only now addressing things like the wakeup issues.

Its funny...I played some anime fighter years ago and it had this meter blow system as an option alongside of delayed wakeups. You could delay or you could blow a bar on wakeup to force opponents to neutral screen position, but it meter locked you for a few moments so you couldn't use other meter stuff. Really odd but never had wakeup issues. Bit overkill IMO though. Tekken probably has the best wakeup system but it only works for Tekken given all the attack options out of wakeup and their rock/paper/scissors sort of mind games.

Biggest things to really push threads on IMO in hopes of elevating the MK game.

WAKEUPS-push for more options than just armor. Rolls, delayed wakeup...whatever. Just push on this hard to try and offset vortex potential
OPTIONS ON ZONING- there should be more options than block dash and jump in. I'm not saying projectiles should all cancel each other out because it seems wrong for MK, but to mitigate the tradition of them not cancelling their needs to be more universal options vs them IMO to add more depth to approaching these situations than meet them with jump ins, block dash, or beat them with better offense from afar.
OPTIONS ON DEFENSE- again to mitigate vortex potential you need tools when under pressure. NRS went a unique route on corner pressure by using a combination of interactibles and pushblock in IGAU, but I think adding alpha counters or just guarding would also be beneficial as well
OPTIONS ON MOBILITY-MK ...well its okay but Block dashing is a bit dumb, but its fast and it kept the game out of being a zoner fest so it worked for MK from what I saw. Now though it appears we have the run button back which makes folks need to be more careful. Teleports abounded in MK9 and we've seen some so far so you likely wont be locked out a screen away with most folks in MKX at least. Still I like the idea of NRS studying tools like hops, super hops, and fast fall stuff like KoF and air dash fighters use because it allows your jump ins to be less readable and to fake out and bait more. Plus KoF 60 frame dodge rolls are great too. At low level they get thrown a lot, but they are so long that they generally get blown up if you just raw approach projectiles or neutral with them...but turn them loose vs a dash up or an offensive tool and its a sexy mixup item to consider. It also mitigates wakeup and corner traps a lot too. I don't know what tools out of those they may find the most appropriate to the things they have in mind , but I think we should talk more on such mobility options from other games we've seen to give NRS ideas to consider.


I said all this for IGAU too though, but we did see pushblock at least so perhaps they heard some of us then.

For now with what we've seen...3 styles would have been great for MK9. MKX is its own beast and we don't know much on it yet so we can't give a solid answer, but if its build off MK9's system heavily then its a good thing they exist. Still...push those green topics hard folks. It'd be good to draw attention to these sort of solutions to issues that occur in fighters and how they speed up, slow down, or strengthen/weaken types of play.

I think of those mentioned that MkX will do great (or should i say better) on mobility and antizoning. Again nothing is known so far but the run option might make it so setting up even two projectiles in a row might be a risk. Also they did purposely add the mobility interactables to close distance from zoners and prevent getting mauled in the corner.

But the wakeup thing.....

In MKX only EX waleups will have invincibility. Great idea! It really is. I feel that its going to create a ton of very dirty setups on knockdown though. You should be rewarded for a knockdown that part I understand. I'm just afraid there might be some SERIOUS vortexing 0toDeath in this new game.

A delayed wakeup or roll option similar to delayed wakeup would be a huge future proofing idea imo.

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

Man I dont even need to be in this thread, you're just doing all this hard work for me.

Thanks, bro. You're probably better off staying out of it anyway since its somewhat ridiculous to discuss this before the game even comes out. It all depends almost entirely on NRS' ability to execute on their gameplan. If they do it right I have faith it'll be as awesome as we expect, but if not Belial and co. will look like prophets instead of a deranged homeless people shouting in the streets.

 

[Rathalos]

MK9 sorta had delayed wakeup. I never really messed with it though.
They removed it for Injustice.

Though there is also the thing about MB throws giving you a restand into large advantage...

 

[GLoRToR]

I'm actually enjoying the idea. This could go very well, or very wrong.

 

[aldazo]

@Belial is right. Instead of having undivided well rounded characters with balanced moves lists, you splitting their aspects into 3. It decreases balance.
...
None of these versions of the character alone are well rounded but together they make a fairly balanced character. With the combination if these three elements in the ine character, you have a fundamentally broken character, at least in Ryu's case.
...
It is important to note that character does not need to be well balanced ro be competitive. Look at Injustice, almost any character can make top 8, but because the characters are NOT well balanced you have the crazy matchups...

... why make them variations at all when they could be characters? If it is because they are not different enough to the original design, then why make variations at all?

Splitting the specials set in 3 may decrease balance if you consider each variation as a unique character, if you consider it just a variation then the balance between "chars" could improve (if you force blind picks). The option of combine all the 3 variations into one is just going back to what we all know: char 1 will have best tools (in general) than char 2, so you will try to counterpick choosing another char, etc.

You're assuming that combining the 3 variations will make every char "well rounded" but that is what every developer thinks when creating a char, they give every char a set of specials thinking it will make then fair but we all know how the story ends: a competitive player find a strategy or broken thing that give the char an advantage against others. So it is the same? No because if you combine all the variations into one then a bad match up means you will want to pick another char instead of your loved one (something people don't like) instead of just changing the variation, now you will say that every variation could be considered a char in itself but that's another theme.

But balance is having fair matchups instead of bad/good matchups, I guess you mean well rounded chars.

You make variations so you can go through bad matchups with the same char, if you force char locks and blind picks . No, I think variations are more like a way to appeal to more fans and their wide range of preferences and you don't make more chars because that is harder, that means more work, you just make some variations of existing chars (less time consuming), so variations are just that "variations" of (different specials for) existing chars; plus you get the feeling that your char has more tools to overcome bad matchups by switching styles, but I guess that's not the point.

In brief, variations doesn't balance the game but mixing all variations into one doesn't guarantee it either. But I understand that more variations imply more matchups to balance.

 

[Chris4387]

When in doubt just swing off a tree, throw a corpse, use a bystander as a projectile, or frog leap across the screen. Or just yolo special or armor. Can't get in? Just Michael Johnson your way in. You're putting too much thought process into it, let your artistic juices flow and forget rationality. Then if all else fails you can just slasher someone with vorhees or run them over in your serial killer ice cream truck.

 

[BRUTALITY]

Having 3 variations of each character is going to take a long time to patch in future I guess too.

How is it going to come across on TYM? "Hellfire Scorpion is OP nerf pls!" "No way, it makes up for his weak Ninjitsu mode!"

I think things might get ugly.

 

[khrome]

It is a valid argument and I'm glad people have these discussions because they're interesting and no harm ever comes from talking about legitimate concerns from the game, as opposed to hypothetically, topics created asking what love triangles should be in mkx and discussions about unimaginative fan made characters based on old sci-fi movies . So I hope OP didn't get the wrong impressions from the first page even if he could have worded his OP better mechanical and technical discussions are always welcome. We just have to be honest and say we know some or a lot of what we're talking about is conjecture.

Khrome is a liquid metal ninja concept that I and others thought of, it's a more imaginative fan made character based on old sci-fi movies than Ferra/Torr, which is an obvious Master Blaster rip-off from Mad Max Series.

 

[BRUTALITY]

Why in MKX can we only use some aspects of a character at once? You can not consider all 3 variations "One character." It's 3 individual characters. I can only use one of these styles at once. Why don't have access to all of the options?

If I use Rushdown Freddy and get beaten by Zoner Kenshi, I'm just going to switch to Zoner / Counter Zoner Freddy. I still lost and I still had to switch. It's not making 1 character balanced. It's 3 characters with their own imbalances. Counter picking with a variation is still counter picking no matter what way you spin it. Opponents X Variation is good against my Y Variation so I lose and swap to Z variation.

 

[Gh0sty]

I usually wouldn't say anything, but I'm feeling sassy so here goes: what the fuck do you know about an unexplored mechanic in an unreleased game? Your post gave me feline aids.

#wowout

 

[Chris4387]

Why in MKX can we only use some aspects of a character at once? You can not consider all 3 variations "One character." It's 3 individual characters. I can only use one of these styles at once. Why don't have access to all of the options?

If I use Rushdown Freddy and get beaten by Zoner Kenshi, I'm just going to switch to Zoner / Counter Zoner Freddy. I still lost and I still had to switch. It's not making 1 character balanced. It's 3 characters with their own imbalances. Counter picking with a variation is still counter picking no matter what way you spin it. Opponents X Variation is good against my Y Variation so I lose and swap to Z variation.

C'est la vie, they want it in the game, period. NRS doesn't want to stick to a formula and can care less about competitiveness, they want to create titles that sell, have tons of single player modes, and lots of casual appeal. They will always figure out a way to add something crazy to each title they release. If its competitive good, if not, still good. Don't you think you'll have fun throwing old ladies at acrobatic ninjas? Or running people over in Sweet Tooths ice cream truck?

 

[Matador Fiend]

Having 3 variations of each character is going to take a long time to patch in future I guess too.



I think things might get ugly.

Yep. Look at MK9. By the time people discovered most of the more unfair stuff, the game wasn't getting patched again some characters were just plan broken, either being overly nerfed and near useless or just too good. With three variations and a lot of characters, a lot will prob slip by

 

[BRUTALITY]

C'est la vie, they want it in the game, period. NRS doesn't want to stick to a formula and can care less about competitiveness, they want to create titles that sell, have tons of single player modes, and lots of casual appeal. They will always figure out a way to add something crazy to each title they release. If its competitive good, if not, still good. Don't you think you'll have fun throwing old ladies at acrobatic ninjas? Or running people over in Sweet Tooths ice cream truck?

you realise this is the competitive home of mortal kombat. this is the one place where its ok for me to expect competitivity. so please take your FUN over to MKO or MKU. people always says "WHAT ABOUT FUN, ARE U FORGETTING ABOUT THE FUN?!" i have fun competing and no visual gimmicks like throwing old ladies as a weapon doesnt turn me on sorry.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Your definition is far more subjective than mine. I'd like to know where your line is. normals? walk speed? health? # of specials? supers? Some combination? How many? My definition is very simple; the second the change alters the matchup its a new character. Ryu / Evil Ryu are different characters. Ryu (U1) and Ryu (U2) are not. The end. Doesn't matter what the lifebar says, doesn't matter what the polygons or artwork looks like. If Kabal had a variation with his mask off that traded gas blasts for a low command grab, you wouldn't dare call him the same character nor would you judge his match ups the same way. Mask-off Kabal would be a COMPLETELY different ballgame. Rune-less Quan. Trident Rush-less Aquaman. OH Teleportless MMH. Simple. one move changes that would COMPLETELY alter the tier list, all of which fit within what we already know about MKX variations. Should we really be lumping them all together?

MKX already looks to be the same way. Only one of Raiden's variants has a teleport. One of Ferra/Torr's has no projectiles. Only one Sub has clone. One Cassie has unblockable homing missiles. And one of Scorpion's variants has a completely different set of normals. You're telling me these tools aren't going to change matchups? Are none of these changes as drastic as slightly less health slightly faster normals evil ryu? You're telling me its not a completely different ballgame if I beat (or lose to you) with a version of a character that has a clone or a teleport or no projectiles vs one that doesn't?

The scorpion statement is wrong, its not completely different, its still all the same strings and normals he has on his others variations, the difference is that in some of these same strings he is able to use his sword instead of his hand, nothing to dramatical, aside from the new 2 command normals that makes use of the sword is what he gains.

This thread is stupid and most ppl here are overreacting, we didn't even got to touch the game, but ppl are already crying because Sub ABC, counter pick ABC.

Every character stays mostly the same, the differences they get from each variation is just slightly to change a bit the playstyle wheel, i think Ed Boon said that in one of his E3 interviews.

 

[Barrogh]

you realise this is the competitive home of mortal kombat. this is the one place where its ok for me to expect competitivity. so please take your FUN over to MKO or MKU. people always says "WHAT ABOUT FUN, ARE U FORGETTING ABOUT THE FUN?!" i have fun competing and no visual gimmicks like throwing old ladies as a weapon doesnt turn me on sorry.

I agree with your position, but I feel that his point being along the lines of: "this is what NRS is making and this is where you will probably be looking for solace after playing another 3-7 entire evening".

Every character stays mostly the same, the differences they get from each variation is just slightly to change a bit the playstyle wheel, i think Ed Boon said that in one of his E3 interviews.

Well, if going from zoning to rushdown is "slight change to playstlye", then okay, I suppose...

This thread is stupid and most ppl here are overreacting, we didn't even got to touch the game, but ppl are already crying because Sub ABC, counter pick ABC.

No, we are just discussing base design options: a metric ton of specialist characters versus fewer characters with more options.

 

[Eddy Wang]

No, we are just discussing base design options: a metric ton of specialist characters versus fewer characters with more options.

Have you played the game? How the hell we will know all this will going to turn out? we are all especulating, that is what is happening here.

At this point nothing can be assumed, nothing.

 

[nfdsallwd]

My definition is very simple; the second the change alters the matchup its a new character. Ryu / Evil Ryu are different characters. Ryu (U1) and Ryu (U2) are not. The end.

so ultra1 gief and ultra2 gief are different characters? Kappa. matchup with gief changes depending on his ultra choice, because u2 prevents people from backdashing/jumping from his spd, while against u1 gief you have to be aware that he can punish even -1 moves.