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MK12 Speculation

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Juxtapose

Master
lol imagine if Kung Jin had actually finished off KK after beating him (as KK intended). All those dudes in the background halfway through building the giant statues in KK's likeness would be pissed. Actually, imagine being literally anyone in KK's court as you watch him fight some rookie Shaolin in public, lose, then willingly offer up his life, essentially throwing away everything he and his allies worked and bled for over the last 25 years.

I refuse to believe someone at NRS DOESN'T have a giant hateboner for old KK. Kotal has a great design, but he's such a bitch in story mode(s).
It wasn't 25 years though. Mileena ruled as Kahn for approximately 17 years. At the time of Mortal Kombat X's main story, Kotal has only been in power for about 4 years.

Part of Kotal's character is that he continually makes bad decisions, and is hampered by a public sense of honour, inspite of being a very selfish individual. He's not a "bitch," he's severally flawed and clearly above his station (He's an excellent general, but a very poor Kahn).
 

Mk9kevin

Sareena for MK11!
It’s Kombat Timeeeeeeeee!! Man I love MK/Injustice season. I can’t wait to see all the fake leaks, all the speculation, all the excitement. It’s probably the best(or worst) time leading up to release.

As for speculation… Just give me Reptile(which c’mon he’s in) and Sareena and I will die happy. Honestly, all my favorites have made it into the MK9/X/11 era, so whoever makes it in, makes it in. But Reptile, Sareena, and Tremor are my top three I want.

I just hope… That this time around… They can actually pay attention to the already established lore(cough Sindel cough). I kinda wish we had a Konquest mode that makes you interact with other players and we all just explore Outworld or Chaosrealm. That would be sick, and who knows maybe that could be a way to reintroduce Kreate-A-Fighter but in a better way.
 

Nickolaidas

Agent of Chaosrealm
You're undervaluing Kung Jin's training and skills too much, and overvaluing Kotal's significantly.
It's the game itself that presents him as an overconfident rookie who fucks up in training exercises and then have him beat a rival to Shao Kahn which has supposedly many battles and experiences under his belt - as also beating and dismembering former MK champions.

I'm just going according to what the lore gave me at that point.
 
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Juxtapose

Master
It's the game itself that presents him as an overconfident rookie who fucks up in training exercises and then have him beat a rival to Shao Kahn which has supposedly many battles and experiences under his belt - as also beating and dismembering former MK champions.
The game shows him as an overconfident rookie who screws up a training exercise in which teamwork is needed where he did not function as part of a team.

He then screws up again by instigating those fights in Outworld by saving that bread thief, and then battles Kotal one-on-one after actually thinking things through and invoking the battle to save himself and his teammates.

At no point does the game show the younger characters as poor, unskilled fighters; quite the opposite. The game clearly shows their ability to coordinate as a team is sorely lacking, and this is something the games addresses as the story goes on.

Kotal is not a rival of Shao's at this point and his bio in-game clearly points out that Kotal idolizes Shao.

Kotal was only able to defeat Goro, and dismember him, by using Blood Magic. Something he did not do here.

I'm just going according to what the lore gave me at that point.
You're not though. You're skewing the lore to what you want instead of looking at the lore objectively.
 

mattteo

Apprentice
Kung Jin beating Kotal (one of Shao Kahn's generals, so on the same level with Reiko, Motaro, Kitana, Jade, maybe Mileena) is not even compatable to the worst: Kitana beating Shao Kahn. Same guy who sucked the souls of 7 billion Earthrealmers except the ones protected by the Elder Gods in MK3. Shao Kahn who brushed Cage and Sonya with a wave of his hand in MK9.

Same Kitana who was bitchslapped by Sindel.in MK9, with only a fraction of Kahn's power.
 

Juxtapose

Master
Kotal (one of Shao Kahn's generals, so on the same level with Reiko, Motaro, Kitana, Jade, maybe Mileena)
Kotal was ultimately not on the same level. Kotal disappointed Shao so much that Shao gave him to Shang to experiment on in his Flesh Pits.

Kitana, Jade, and Mileena also were not generals for Shao, but assassins (and royalty). Their roles were different in Shao's empire than that of Kotal, Reiko, and Motaro.

Kitana beating Shao Kahn.
This is the only fight in the entire modern trilogy, with how it was presented, that I find unbelievable.
 
Kung Jin beating Kotal (one of Shao Kahn's generals, so on the same level with Reiko, Motaro, Kitana, Jade, maybe Mileena) is not even compatable to the worst: Kitana beating Shao Kahn. Same guy who sucked the souls of 7 billion Earthrealmers except the ones protected by the Elder Gods in MK3. Shao Kahn who brushed Cage and Sonya with a wave of his hand in MK9.

Same Kitana who was bitchslapped by Sindel.in MK9, with only a fraction of Kahn's power.
Why Kung Lao beats Shao Kahn but Kitana's win is the worst?
 

Juxtapose

Master
Why Kung Lao beats Shao Kahn but Kitana's win is the worst?
Curious: when does Lao fight, and defeat, Shao in the modern trilogy? Am I completely forgetting that battle?

In Mortal Kombat (2011) he defeats Kintaro and then Shao walks up behind him and snaps his neck.

He's a Revenant through all of Mortal Kombat XL and is non-playable in Story Mode.

In Mortal Kombat 11 Ultimate, he never fights Shao.

Edit: Correction. You can choose to be Sindel or Shao in "Aftermath" and fight Lao, and Lao looses.
 
Curious: when does Lao fight, and defeat, Shao in the modern trilogy? Am I completely forgetting that battle?

In Mortal Kombat (2011) he defeats Kintaro and then Shao walks up behind him and snaps his neck.

He's a Revenant through all of Mortal Kombat XL and is non-playable in Story Mode.

In Mortal Kombat 11 Ultimate, he never fights Shao.

Edit: Correction. You can choose to be Sindel or Shao in "Aftermath" and fight Lao, and Lao looses.
You are right. I thought Lao beaten him first before the neck snap.
 

Juxtapose

Master
You are right. I thought Lao beaten him first before the neck snap.
Ah. No, that was Kintaro he defeated.

For Kitana, I suppose a case could be made that she's always been more skilled than she demonstrated and held herself back by lack of confidence, fear, and not truly believing in Shao's cause (it is canon that she always held inner doubts about the way of things under Shao).

When she stepped into that arena to confront and dethrone him, she was angry, her resolve solidified, and she wasn't afraid anymore.

Canonically now, she can beat him, this has happened, and the above is the best reasoning I can think of for it.

Having said all this, and as a huge Kitana fan and Kitana-main, I still find it the least plausible fight in the modern trilogy.
 
Ah. No, that was Kintaro he defeated.

For Kitana, I suppose a case could be made that she's always been more skilled than she demonstrated and held herself back by lack of confidence, fear, and not truly believing in Shao's cause (it is canon that she always held inner doubts about the way of things under Shao).

When she stepped into that arena to confront and dethrone him, she was angry, her resolve solidified, and she wasn't afraid anymore.

Canonically now, she can beat him, this has happened, and the above is the best reasoning I can think of for it.

Having said all this, and as a huge Kitana fan and Kitana-main, I still find it the least plausible fight in the modern trilogy.
Your points are valid, I think there are more to add.
Aside from skill, being 10k years old adds a lotnof experience, plus the edenians come from the gods and have magic powers etc etc.
Of course Shao has all of these privileges too, i just want to point that she is downplayed a lot for this win while she is one of the most powerful of the whole cast. (At least in the non - god category)
As you said she stepped confident into the fight, while Shao isn't clearly at his golden era. He just got the throne after a time soup in an already unstable Era for outworld. You get what I mean. He had a bad day. :)
 

Juxtapose

Master
Your points are valid, I think there are more to add.
Aside from skill, being 10k years old adds a lotnof experience, plus the edenians come from the gods and have magic powers etc etc.
Of course Shao has all of these privileges too, i just want to point that she is downplayed a lot for this win while she is one of the most powerful of the whole cast. (At least in the non - god category)
As you said she stepped confident into the fight, while Shao isn't clearly at his golden era. He just got the throne after a time soup in an already unstable Era for outworld. You get what I mean. He had a bad day. :)
Good points as well.

Similar along your lines of thinking, the only reason I believe Kotal was able to defeat him earlier in the story was simply because Shao was off balance. Coming through time, the shock of such changes, and then bull-headed trying to plow through things instead of thinking things through, and then the fight with Liu, threw Shao off balance for Kotal to best him.

For Kitana, she absolutely is one of the strongest mortal characters in the modern trilogy.

One of the character trends of said modern trilogy that I'm not keen on is how so many characters are less mature. Liu, Lao, and even Kitana seem more immature than they did in the original trilogy, and the impression I get is that 10,000 years old in Edenian is roughly the same as 18-22 in human in terms of mental maturity.

Perhaps through the events of Mortal Kombat 11's story, Kitana "grew up" more, giving her a bit more of an edge.
 

Nickolaidas

Agent of Chaosrealm
You're not though. You're skewing the lore to what you want instead of looking at the lore objectively.
Oh, I'm not skewing anything, trust me, the game skews its own lore just fine by itself. The truth of the matter is that power levels at NRS story modes are, quite literally, bullshit. There is literally no logic in the victories other than 'the character you play as simply beats any opponent we throw at you'.

Because if a retired Jax can beat Sindel and Liu Kang the same day he decides to put on his old uniform, this means he's better than anyone they've bested, which means he's better than Smoke, Johnny (and by extension Shinnok), Kitana, Shao Kahn, Kung Lao, Jade, and almost the entire cast.

Which doesn't make sense. Jax was never portrayed to be THAT good of a fighter.

Whoever you play as beats everyone they fight against. It doesn't make sense lore-wise, and it never will.

That's why you see Kitana at one moment utterly whooping Shao's ass (because you play as her), and the next fight you play as Shao he wipes the floor with her (because you play as him). There's no logic, no respect to the game's own lore. I take it for what it is.

So when Kung Jin beats Kotal Kahn, it means nothing, it doesn't prove that Kung Jin 'should' win or shouldn't. He's just the guy you happen to control at this point, and if it was his first day on the job and the game would throw Onaga at full power at you, Kung Jin would've still won because you control him, not because he's the better fighter in-lore.
 
lol imagine if Kung Jin had actually finished off KK after beating him (as KK intended). All those dudes in the background halfway through building the giant statues in KK's likeness would be pissed. Actually, imagine being literally anyone in KK's court as you watch him fight some rookie Shaolin in public, lose, then willingly offer up his life, essentially throwing away everything he and his allies worked and bled for over the last 25 years.

I refuse to believe someone at NRS DOESN'T have a giant hateboner for old KK. Kotal has a great design, but he's such a bitch in story mode(s).
Swallow writing at its finest.They clearly didnt know what character they wanted Kotal to be.
 
Kotal is a mess. He started as a harsh but just ruler, then as an absolutist willing to execute a petty thief, then a honorable fighter willing to offer his life, then as a cooperative "politician" to earthrealm until he broke the agreement and got to keep the amulet until he sold the earthrealmers to shinnok. Petty coward.
Also stupid, being played by devorah like a fiddle, and relying on other nuclear physicists like reptile or ermac. in MK11, he is like " Raiden you gone Mad after MKX. Why?"

Just because of his cheap character, It is totally plausible to get beaten by a rookie Shaolin, and him winning against Shao is more of a stretch than Kitana's win.

Also he sleeps with Jade, and this is the biggest strech of all.
 
Good points as well.

Similar along your lines of thinking, the only reason I believe Kotal was able to defeat him earlier in the story was simply because Shao was off balance. Coming through time, the shock of such changes, and then bull-headed trying to plow through things instead of thinking things through, and then the fight with Liu, threw Shao off balance for Kotal to best him.

For Kitana, she absolutely is one of the strongest mortal characters in the modern trilogy.

One of the character trends of said modern trilogy that I'm not keen on is how so many characters are less mature. Liu, Lao, and even Kitana seem more immature than they did in the original trilogy, and the impression I get is that 10,000 years old in Edenian is roughly the same as 18-22 in human in terms of mental maturity.

Perhaps through the events of Mortal Kombat 11's story, Kitana "grew up" more, giving her a bit more of an edge.
Yes. The marvelification and the need of relatable characters in story modes, are probably responsible for that i think.

I strongly believe in bad days for characters losing fights. It can happen. What if Kano had a stomachache when he fought Sonya, Etc etc.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
Oh, I'm not skewing anything, trust me, the game skews its own lore just fine by itself. The truth of the matter is that power levels at NRS story modes are, quite literally, bullshit. There is literally no logic in the victories other than 'the character you play as simply beats any opponent we throw at you'.

Because if a retired Jax can beat Sindel and Liu Kang the same day he decides to put on his old uniform, this means he's better than anyone they've bested, which means he's better than Smoke, Johnny (and by extension Shinnok), Kitana, Shao Kahn, Kung Lao, Jade, and almost the entire cast.

Which doesn't make sense. Jax was never portrayed to be THAT good of a fighter.

Whoever you play as beats everyone they fight against. It doesn't make sense lore-wise, and it never will.

That's why you see Kitana at one moment utterly whooping Shao's ass (because you play as her), and the next fight you play as Shao he wipes the floor with her (because you play as him). There's no logic, no respect to the game's own lore. I take it for what it is.

So when Kung Jin beats Kotal Kahn, it means nothing, it doesn't prove that Kung Jin 'should' win or shouldn't. He's just the guy you happen to control at this point, and if it was his first day on the job and the game would throw Onaga at full power at you, Kung Jin would've still won because you control him, not because he's the better fighter in-lore.
Are we so bored we're going to be power scaling like 12 year olds reading One Piece now :confused:
 

Juxtapose

Master
Oh, I'm not skewing anything, trust me, the game skews its own lore just fine by itself.
You are though. You claim to go by the lore one post, and then dump on it the next. It's hard to trust you when you've demonstrated you're not keen on keeping your own reasoning straight.

Because if a retired Jax can beat Sindel and Liu Kang the same day he decides to put on his old uniform...
He didn't defeat Sindel or Liu Kang, he defeated Revenant Sindel and Liu Kang. That's a huge difference as the Revenant's have been shown time and time again to not be on par with their living selves. This is further demonstrated in Mortal Kombat 11 with their past living selves constantly defeating their revenant counterparts.

Whoever you play as beats everyone they fight against.
Yes, that's the formula.

It doesn't make sense lore-wise...
The fights they arrange actually do, you simply don't like them. What happens and what you like/want to happen are two different things.

... and the next fight you play as Shao he wipes the floor with her (because you play as him).
In this fight she's completely frazzled, betrayed, and desperate. That's very different than when she confidently walked into the Kolloseum to take him on. Setting and situation do make a difference.

I take it for what it is.
You don't though, you take it for what you want.

So when Kung Jin beats Kotal Kahn, it means nothing,
It means Jin is capable of beating Kotal, whether you want to acknowledge this or not.

and the game would throw Onaga at full power at you, Kung Jin would've still won because you control him,
I doubt we'd see that fight. If they ever had Jin fight Onaga and win, they'd power up Jin some what like they did with Jax/Jacui against Cetrion.

We also won't see this fight, hopefully, because Onaga is a garbage 3D era character who should never return.
 

Juxtapose

Master
Kotal is a mess. He started as a harsh but just ruler, then as an absolutist willing to execute a petty thief, then a honorable fighter willing to offer his life, then as a cooperative "politician" to earthrealm until he broke the agreement and got to keep the amulet until he sold the earthrealmers to shinnok. Petty coward.
Also stupid, being played by devorah like a fiddle, and relying on other nuclear physicists like reptile or ermac. in MK11, he is like " Raiden you gone Mad after MKX. Why?"

Just because of his cheap character, It is totally plausible to get beaten by a rookie Shaolin, and him winning against Shao is more of a stretch than Kitana's win.

Also he sleeps with Jade, and this is the biggest strech of all.
This is his character though, and why he's so "human." Kotal is a mess, and he causes most of his own problems or finds himself in situations beyond him and makes things worse.