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MK11 Meta Hopes

PetulantWaste

Apprentice
Have you tried playing Smash? It's essentially what you are asking for. There's no mix ups. It's either hit or throw. The rest is characters mechanics, reads, skill.

I find it incredibly refreshing when i need a break from traditional fighters.
 

MadPropz101

"I still got it...but not much of it"
Honestly the whole point of MKX and Inj2 is to play the top tier characters or the characters with the most amount of dirt, and not let the other person do their bullshit by doing your bullshit first.
There truly is not that much thought behind it...
 

ShaolinGunFu

Warrior
Have you tried playing Smash? It's essentially what you are asking for. There's no mix ups. It's either hit or throw. The rest is characters mechanics, reads, skill.
This is one of the points im trying to make- how is throw/hit not a mixup too? In MKX we have to often choose to block overhead, low, tech forward throw, tech backwards throw, duck a high, backdash or use meter to armor out. Thats not a coinflip, which is why certain players do better, sonicfox isnt lucky he plays well.
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
Coin flip isn't talking about something binary, it isn't literally a "coin flip" as in two options. That is why most commentators use the word "MIX". When people say things like "Get Mixed" or w/e... what they are saying is that there is no signal that you can possibly react to. You simply need to guess from all the options and hope it works out. This is why MK and MKx even more than most, focused so much on offence.
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
I think gore really hurt MK... uTube was demonitizing content creators, twitch was putting age confirmation on it. ESL claimed that they dumped MK as they were unable to get sponsors to deal with MKx... and MKx was greatly tonned down.. the dark almost black blood was a attempt by NRS to make it less confronting... I mean imagne MKx if it was all bright read crimson like in MK9. I hope they go for the gore as well, but with eSports and streaming on uTube and from events and stuff so big... going for gore could hurt MK more than help it.. assuming it wants to become a global eSport.
 

BecomingDeath13

"You won't winter over?" Who the fuck wrote that?
I think gore really hurt MK... uTube was demonitizing content creators, twitch was putting age confirmation on it. ESL claimed that they dumped MK as they were unable to get sponsors to deal with MKx... and MKx was greatly tonned down.. the dark almost black blood was a attempt by NRS to make it less confronting... I mean imagne MKx if it was all bright read crimson like in MK9. I hope they go for the gore as well, but with eSports and streaming on uTube and from events and stuff so big... going for gore could hurt MK more than help it.. assuming it wants to become a global eSport.
Don't they always have an option in settings to turn the blood off? I mean if it was really that big of a deal they could do that but of course that would disable finishers too.
 

stokedAF

casual kahnage
I hope they don’t tone down mk due to esports. Mk is a casual fighting game and a novelty gimmick. I’m not trying to be offensive, that’s why I love it. Gore and silliness has been it’s bread and butter for 25 years. The gore is it’s shtick and it’s never hurt them. Screw YouTube and twitch, NRS can hold their own streams.
 

PetulantWaste

Apprentice
This is one of the points im trying to make- how is throw/hit not a mixup too? In MKX we have to often choose to block overhead, low, tech forward throw, tech backwards throw, duck a high, backdash or use meter to armor out. Thats not a coinflip, which is why certain players do better, sonicfox isnt lucky he plays well.

It is a mix up but it's not nearly as prevalent as oh/low is in MKX. The throw/hit mix in Smash is only in there because it's absolutely necessary to keep defensive play honest. If they eliminated it they would have to drastically reduce shields. Beyond that it's an incredibly honest game.
 

John Grizzly

The axe that clears the forest
The game will be (was, considering it's coming out in just a few months) designed around whatever will be most exciting for people to watch on stream. I love the old games, but let's face it - none of these kids would watch a game like UMK3 on stream, let alone buy it. Run jabs and shit like that are not fun to watch. I think the casual viewer wants rushdown heavy, crazy combos and unpredictability.

I honestly don't think the gameplay will be all that much different than MKX was. Who knows. We will all have our answers soon enough.
 

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
Perhaps I misunderstood? I thought the point you were making was all games have guessing therefore 50 50s are perfectly fine. My response was you can have more interesting forms of guess work that don't involve 50 50s.

Sorry if I'm misrepresenting you.
I see maybe how my point could have came across as such, my mistake. I mean more to say that OP gives off the impression ( that I myself could be misinterpreting) that all fighters have this 50/50 meta nowadays, which isn't true in the sense that guessing has always historically been a feature in fighters. The offensive game has always been like this no matter the game, again even in UMK3 the pressure game is heavily based around guesswork.
 

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
It is a mix up but it's not nearly as prevalent as oh/low is in MKX. The throw/hit mix in Smash is only in there because it's absolutely necessary to keep defensive play honest. If they eliminated it they would have to drastically reduce shields. Beyond that it's an incredibly honest game.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but the main form of mix ( and virtually the only form) in SFV is throw/hit (or shimmy, same goal). Yet people complain about it for the same reasons. What exactly is the difference between the two?
 
I’ve been thinking about fighters lately and why I don’t really like the new ones. Not just NRS games, but every new fighting game. Sure, games like DBFZ and SC6 have been incredibly fun and I even really liked Injustice 2 and MKX. However, I lose interest once the very early stages of the meta is developed. And there’s a common thread with all these games. The meta, whether it’s heavily influenced or just regularly influenced, has some degree of reliance on 50/50’s to open people up.

Coming from UMK3 where there’s almost none of this, and really loving the meta of MK9 where there wasn’t THAT many 50/50’s, I think the abundance of guessing in this manner is what kills my passion for these games. Now there has always been guessing and will always be guessing in fighters. But I’m not talking about just in general “guessing”, that would be ridiculous. I’m talking about specifically the game being designed to open up the opponent for you by forcing them to guess the oh/low/throw/etc on practically every single engagement. I miss footsies being a main factor, spacing being a huge part of the meta. I miss pressure alone forcing your opponent to make mistakes which in turn opens them up.

Anyway, I know a lot of people will disagree, but this is just something I’ve been thinking about. To clarify, I’m not saying these new fighters don’t take skill, not at all. I just don’t like the meta that has been consistent across all these games. That’s all, and I really hope MK11’s meta is different. I’m almost sure it won’t be, but a man can dream.
well, it's understandable to want to take the luck factor out of a competitive game.
i won't lie being part of the FGC when the meta revolved around heavy mix up makes it the norm for me so i don't see the problems you and a number of people might have, that not meaning that i don't see any problem at all.

i'd like the OH/Low mix up out, or heavily toned down and made really punishable. but when it comes to MixUP as a whole i doubt they can be removed at all. there will always be a mix. be it just being Throw or hit, like SF or Med or Low like tekken OR even the annoying OH/Low from MK there will always be something.
Even if it's as simple as letting go of block to crouch a High that's plus or knowing something isn't plus enough for the followup. With this said; i just really hope MK11 is a hella fun cause all the balancing in the world and lack of mix up won't do anything if the game isn't firstly fun to play and watch.
 
The meta must cater to the casual, that is why it is what it is
That's the easy answer and it's not throw. the tool that make you a good player don't disappear because there are 50/50's in the game. you can still play footies in MKXL and you can play Injustice2 if you'd like it toned down even more. i don't think i could mix Sonicfox or any top player to death without having the skill to challenge them first which would in turn make me no longer a causal. so, if you're following my logic, you should see what i mean by meta not actually Catering to causals.
 

theotherguy

Kombatant
Maybe not directly meta related, but i'd like to see less low pokes, and low pokes into specials or full juggles. Not sure how they'd work on it though.

Being a casual player, I think i understand the purpose of them, low profiling, quick startup beats other attacks, good range for some, conditioning before going high.

As a player where low pokes are there just to pressure or AA and then lead into a juggle, i find it annoying, although i do see the practicality.

As a spectator I think it looks weird with the constant lows being thrown around.

I'm sure a big part of it is that I don't know the game well enough, but from a visual standpoint it'd be nice if they make it less reliant on these attacks.
 

Trini_Bwoi

Kombatant
The OH/low mixups in Injustice 2 were pretty reasonable. They were mostly slower on startup compared to other normals, one option led to more damage than the other, or were unsafe (but potentially made safe with meter/trait). I would say Black Canary and Wonder Woman are the gold standard when it comes to NRS mixups. I get that they want to keep the games separate but hopefully they can bring that over from I2.
 

ShaolinGunFu

Warrior
As a player where low pokes are there just to pressure or AA and then lead into a juggle, i find it annoying, although i do see the practicality.

As a spectator I think it looks weird with the constant lows being thrown around.
My suggestion is what I believe "potato mixups" means but maybe im using that term wrong- poke 50/50s, and then the pop up strings are high or mid, so you can 50/50 me for a hard knockdown, instead of for a 50% combo
 

RM AtK!

aka - RM_AtK !
I’ve been thinking about fighters lately and why I don’t really like the new ones. Not just NRS games, but every new fighting game. Sure, games like DBFZ and SC6 have been incredibly fun and I even really liked Injustice 2 and MKX. However, I lose interest once the very early stages of the meta is developed. And there’s a common thread with all these games. The meta, whether it’s heavily influenced or just regularly influenced, has some degree of reliance on 50/50’s to open people up.

Coming from UMK3 where there’s almost none of this, and really loving the meta of MK9 where there wasn’t THAT many 50/50’s, I think the abundance of guessing in this manner is what kills my passion for these games. Now there has always been guessing and will always be guessing in fighters. But I’m not talking about just in general “guessing”, that would be ridiculous. I’m talking about specifically the game being designed to open up the opponent for you by forcing them to guess the oh/low/throw/etc on practically every single engagement. I miss footsies being a main factor, spacing being a huge part of the meta. I miss pressure alone forcing your opponent to make mistakes which in turn opens them up.

Anyway, I know a lot of people will disagree, but this is just something I’ve been thinking about. To clarify, I’m not saying these new fighters don’t take skill, not at all. I just don’t like the meta that has been consistent across all these games. That’s all, and I really hope MK11’s meta is different. I’m almost sure it won’t be, but a man can dream.
bruh you have never played one of the new games longer than like 2 weeks LMAO since umk3 .. dont front like you gonna play this one if its good or bad :p
 

RM AtK!

aka - RM_AtK !
Well, for starters, I definitely think abandoning a game during the very early parts would have you feel the same way every time because, typically, learning how to defend and play the game properly will leave most players pretty open to almost any kind of offense. Forcing a 50/50 is the best kind of offense you can do, and since that's a little bit easier to figure out, that will always dominate early on.

But almost any time I saw a game through to the very end, I would see that those scenarios would only happen after the mid-range game ended: a good dash, a good jump, out-spaced someone and so they overreached, low-profiled a string, etc. Obviously people could refine their offense so well that they can pretty much take any opening and turn it into a series of damaging guesses, but they also learn how to keep people out as well. An example is Goku Black being seen as a strong character in DBFZ until it became apparent that his teleport mixups weren't actually very good and he sorely lacked a way to crack his opponents opened. It took a little bit, but it eventually came to pass. Wesker was the same way in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3, where he was all over the place for a while before people learned how to defend against him and suddenly what was once seen as incredibly good turned out to be average.

I see everyone say "[insert game] is reliant on 50/50's," but I never really know what it means. Fighting games aren't a martial arts competition, where you land a throw or a poke and then immediately back off as an acknowledgement of a good landed strike. Everything is a means to an end, which is getting the knockdown and pressing your advantage, and there is nothing more advantageous than a simple yes/no guess. Older games may not have had overheads to help mix up traditional low options like sweep, but throws were also 10x as strong typically and the only option was to counter throw, which meant you had to stop blocking low. Being on point with a reversal or jumping away was crucial, but that wasn't easy either, as the window to input a reversal out of blockstun was typically very, very small. As offensive options developed and got stronger in later games, so did defensive options: throws became two-button tech, backdashes were added, alpha counters/block breakers, breakers, etc.

Making you guess between a low or an oh/throw has pretty much been the key to offense since the beginning of time, but the big difference is typically what your options are to defend. Sometimes it skews towards being easier to convert back to offense from a defensive position (USFIV, Injustice series) and sometimes it skews towards having few options but to make a hard read to get out (DBFZ, most 3D games, MK, SFV). But no matter what kind of game you're playing, those hardlined advantages only come out when one player has succeeded in gaining the upper hand on his opponent via the tiny interactions outside of those extremes we call the neutral game. I've yet to play a game where that part doesn't always come into play first, although I've certainly seen some where it happens extremely fast (MKX). The point is, a game being "reliant" on 50/50's is, to me, a misleading statement considering it is ultimately the goal and the best way to ensure victory, but that goal can't come without establishing a neutral game through good spacing or well-placed reads.
misinformation about some other games you listed, like wesker and such lmao.. you think the meta was the reason he became w/e? he got the nerf hammer big guy lmaoo. he was fuckin OD at first with that gun shot hitstun / teleport / parry etc .. I respect your opinions, but you're always misinforming, about how games actually play out meta-wise.

Are you sure you play all these game, at the competent level of understanding?
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Him being nerfed had almost zero effect on his presence in the early of UMvC3, if you paid attention. Wesker was probably going to be in at least 4 teams in top 8, and was probably the most popular character in the first 6 months of that game's life, free. His goofy glasses buff combined with XF3 was seen as insanely good and worth having him on anchor just to go nuts with in spite of the nerfs from Vanilla MvC3. I know that because I was watching it as it happened. He fell off probably close to the middle of 2012, where you would only see people like Unknown, OMGItzAndre and Noel Brown use him fully, and by then he was getting zoned out by the emerging teams of Morridoom and Magneto/Dooom or smashed by bigger normals of Zero/Vergil/Dante once people were less afraid of him going nuts.

I'm not doubting he was a better character in Vanilla 3, but the fact is that his general game-plan didn't change and was soon found to be lacking as the meta evolved. Which was exactly my point: sometimes a year later, things that seemed very very good aren't as good anymore. This isn't "misinformation," it's an observation.

You can sit the fuck down while the adults talk it out.
 
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ok, i admit i made some statements here cos i was triggered for certain reasons.

well, here my honest thoughts regarding the threadstarters issue in the first post.
thinking too much about meta/gameplay mechanics regarding a new mk game is something i would not do anymore.
instead i would try to approach the game with almost no expectations and unbiased as possible.
assuming that it becomes a technically flawless game and fun to play, i would adapt to it completely kinda from scratch (execution, matchups, metagame ect.)
after having figured out how the game plays and you adapted to it properly, only then you can try to exploit your potential as a player and compete or drop the game if you dont enjoy it. this takes some time it depends on the player but it should be played for more then just 2 months.
if you drop the game without have been played it properly for a good amount of time, then just dont complain or even compare it to others games, thats the thing. a lot of new players are not aware of this and they drop new games after a couple of weeks.
but also some og,s fall into this trap too!

for instance, in street fighter you can transfer all your fundamentals (matchups, execution, metagameplay) in a new sf game and just adapt to some new mechanics. if you play ryu or such classic char, u can still play him like u did for the most part.

everything IMO ofc there is no ultimate truth ;)
 
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AbeW

Mortal
I really think people over-state a lot of talking points when discussing the meta of newer fighting games.

Especially this idea of "I remember when it was footsies / spacing / understandng of neutral which was important and rewarded in fighting games". It's just nonsense. People love to make excuses for their losses in current games, thinking that they only lost to their opponent because they "guessed wrong" and got opened up, without realising that the fact that they were already put in a position to guess in a 50/50 means that they already lost the neutral battle, because their opponent was able to put them in that situation before they were able to do the same to them.

Of course, there are exceptions where there are polarising characters who can reset you, put you in vortexes etc. And then their reward for winning one neutral situation becomes completely disproportionate. But that is just a balance issue.

But, for the majority of the cases, especially in very well balanced games, in most match-ups, you lose because your opponent is better (even in the neutral).

And I genuinely think people have rose-tinted glasses when looking at their prowess in older games, or the values that those older games have, because there were far fewer players playing at a high standard.
Very well said Sir!