MK11 Meta Hopes

[Juggs]

I’ve been thinking about fighters lately and why I don’t really like the new ones. Not just NRS games, but every new fighting game. Sure, games like DBFZ and SC6 have been incredibly fun and I even really liked Injustice 2 and MKX. However, I lose interest once the very early stages of the meta is developed. And there’s a common thread with all these games. The meta, whether it’s heavily influenced or just regularly influenced, has some degree of reliance on 50/50’s to open people up.

Coming from UMK3 where there’s almost none of this, and really loving the meta of MK9 where there wasn’t THAT many 50/50’s, I think the abundance of guessing in this manner is what kills my passion for these games. Now there has always been guessing and will always be guessing in fighters. But I’m not talking about just in general “guessing”, that would be ridiculous. I’m talking about specifically the game being designed to open up the opponent for you by forcing them to guess the oh/low/throw/etc on practically every single engagement. I miss footsies being a main factor, spacing being a huge part of the meta. I miss pressure alone forcing your opponent to make mistakes which in turn opens them up.

Anyway, I know a lot of people will disagree, but this is just something I’ve been thinking about. To clarify, I’m not saying these new fighters don’t take skill, not at all. I just don’t like the meta that has been consistent across all these games. That’s all, and I really hope MK11’s meta is different. I’m almost sure it won’t be, but a man can dream.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I really think people over-state a lot of talking points when discussing the meta of newer fighting games.

Especially this idea of "I remember when it was footsies / spacing / understandng of neutral which was important and rewarded in fighting games". It's just nonsense. People love to make excuses for their losses in current games, thinking that they only lost to their opponent because they "guessed wrong" and got opened up, without realising that the fact that they were already put in a position to guess in a 50/50 means that they already lost the neutral battle, because their opponent was able to put them in that situation before they were able to do the same to them.

Of course, there are exceptions where there are polarising characters who can reset you, put you in vortexes etc. And then their reward for winning one neutral situation becomes completely disproportionate. But that is just a balance issue.

But, for the majority of the cases, especially in very well balanced games, in most match-ups, you lose because your opponent is better (even in the neutral).

And I genuinely think people have rose-tinted glasses when looking at their prowess in older games, or the values that those older games have, because there were far fewer players playing at a high standard.

 

[Eddy Wang]

NRS has been doing 50-50 meta since Injustice 1, i understand the need of introducing new elements to the next interaction but doesn't necessarily means every character has to do it. Besides i'm kinda tired of this philosophy that an option used by P1 only has two type of counters 1 block correctly, 2 whatever they decide after you block correctly.

There has been a speculation that every MK11 character now has a weapon, which can possibly mean everyone now has a disjointed hitbox normal, coming from MKX we know how annoying those were for the one that had it.

But all and all, my though and opinion to what NRS needs to do hasn't changed, stablish rules, limits and do not allow any character of the game to have an exclusivity without a proper universal counter.

We need more than just armor or Invincibilty frames as a answers to everything.

 

[RyuKazuya]

NRS has been doing 50-50 meta since Injustice 1, i understand the need of introducing new elements to the next interaction but doesn't necessarily means every character has to do it. Besides i'm kinda tired of this philosophy that an option used by P1 only has two type of counters 1 block correctly, 2 whatever they decide after you block correctly.

There has been a speculation that every MK11 character now has a weapon, which can possibly mean everyone now has a disjointed hitbox normal, coming from MKX we know how annoying those were for the one that had it.

But all and all, my though and opinion to what NRS needs to do hasn't changed, stablish rules, limits and do not allow any character of the game to have an exclusivity without a proper universal counter.

We need more than just armor or Invincibilty frames as a answers to everything.

To be honest I totally forgot about the badside of having a Weapon in MK. I mean I really liked it in MK4-MKA, however that was before I started to understand how FGs really work.
Actually it was a huge pain to be forced to deal with swords in MKX (i.e. Ronin) so I really hope they find a way to deal with disjointed hitboxes. Otherwise it will be a terrible time trying to whiffpunish swords.

Now I can understand that todays fighting game mentalitly is not everyone's cup of tea. To me it would be exciting to have a new MK game that isn't on pressure steroids. More footsies, less guessing id say.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

While I agree that MKX was mix-heavy (Bo, Sonya, Tremor, etc) the only 50/50 in MKX that I personally have an issue with is throw teching. I was aware a throw attempt may come, I reacted to it, but teched the wrong way? GTFO. Especially frustrating when it makes no logical sense (I.E. they throw you AWAY from the corner).

Vortexes aside, I feel like if I'm getting mixed, it's because I let them gain the upper hand in the neutral just prior to. Getting mixed to death in the corner is frustrating yes, but I'm the one who let them put me in the corner to begin with.

 

[Juggs]

I really think people over-state a lot of talking points when discussing the meta of newer fighting games.

Especially this idea of "I remember when it was footsies / spacing / understandng of neutral which was important and rewarded in fighting games". It's just nonsense. People love to make excuses for their losses in current games, thinking that they only lost to their opponent because they "guessed wrong" and got opened up, without realising that the fact that they were already put in a position to guess in a 50/50 means that they already lost the neutral battle, because their opponent was able to put them in that situation before they were able to do the same to them.

Of course, there are exceptions where there are polarising characters who can reset you, put you in vortexes etc. And then their rewarded for winning one neutral situation becomes completely disproportionate. But that is just a balance issue.

But, for the majority of the cases, especially in very well balanced games, in most match-ups, you lose because your opponent is better (even in the neutral).

And I genuinely think people have rose-tinted glasses when looking at their prowess in older games, or the values that those older games have, because there were far fewer players playing at a high standard.

Didn’t say that at all. I specifically said that I just didn’t like the meta. I actually went back to add to the post because I knew someone was going to misinterpret what I said. Guess if you’re not making top 8’s you really can’t say anything bad about the meta without people accusing you of making excuses.

This had absolutely nothing to do with opponents skill or claiming that I’m losing because of the meta. It’s just mind numbingly boring and not fun. Even casually it gets old pretty quickly.

I do fine in the current meta, I just don’t like it. When I win in the current meta, I get almost not satisfaction. It doesn’t feel rewarding at all. Hell I even like losing more than winning, because at least I can accomplish something and get better more easily when I lose. But losing is still extremely dull. Winning in the old meta, even if you were beating up on a noob, was always very satisfying to me. All aspects felt great. When you lost it was equally rewarding because the entire match was genuinely fun. I miss that dearly. And I wish some of the new blood, even the MK9 players who didn’t play the older games, were able to experience that. For me it’s fighting games at their peak. When you can play literally anyone on the planet and have a good experience (if it wasn’t laggy). I just wish THAT meta was brought back is all.

 

[villainous monk]

I miss the meta of older games too, but they had a lot of flaws. They evolved into what we have today.

I agree it's not terribly fun to play against frame traps. 50/50's that are oppressive. Lack of defensive options to counteract stifling offenses and wacky, gimmicky game mechanics that just either turn out to be abused or never fully fleshed out.

I agree with @Juggs to an extent because it's exhausting fighting against that sort of meta like in most of today's fighters. But I do remember the past & do realize that we're here where we are today because the meta of yesterday also needs to evolve.

I hope we see real balance in mk11.

 

[Badboy Takuma]

so this thread is about:
juggs likes umk3
juggs dont like modern fgs

why a thread though? there is nothing to discuss or even to talk regarding the topic.

 

[GLoRToR]

50 50s with special regards to the concept of vortex I think murders a fighting game. Literally boring.

 

[Badboy Takuma]

50 50s with special regards to the concept of vortex I think murders a fighting game. Literally boring.

glortor my old friend, how are you?
what are your current feelings about modern 2018 fighting games in general but also regarding mk11?

 

[Invincible Salads]

I hate when some one wins a match because someone spent all that money to go to Harvard an get that Phd in 50/50's and got a job as a professional Mix artist. Like Mix is life for these people know what I mean? Like you flip a coin, heads or tails, and somehow they get Shotgun. Bruh that's not even part of the coin, wtf mang? :V

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I really think they’ve been getting better and better with each game they’ve released

 

[skater11]

I mean I somewhat don't understand. Its like, there has to be top characters in the game somehow, someway, otherwise how the hell do you call it a game. So why is it so difficult to understand that 50-50s, frame traps and even resets are bound to happen and be available one way or another. Imagine a game where technically frame traps and 50/50s don't exist but then there's a move like subzero's iceball or scorpions spear in the game. Uh.....yeah 50/50/frametraps available...one way or another.

 

[Juggs]

I mean I somewhat don't understand. Its like, there has to be top characters in the game somehow, someway, otherwise how the hell do you call it a game. So why is it so difficult to understand that 50-50s, frame traps and even resets are bound to happen and be available one way or another. Imagine a game where technically frame traps and 50/50s don't exist but then there's a move like subzero's iceball or scorpions spear in the game. Uh.....yeah 50/50/frametraps available...one way or another.

See this is what I’m talking about. There’s a lot of players, the overwhelming majority, that never even played the classic MK’s on any sort of level other than super casually as a kid. I’d say a lot of players also never played MK9 on a competitive level either. You just described classic MK FG’s my man, lol. The only real 50/50’s in UMK3 for example are throws you can do with characters like Cyrax and Sheeva. Which they can throw loop you technically infinitely if you keep guessing wrong. Other than that, the meta is built around having solid fundamentals, good excecution, heavily focused on footsies and spacing, knowing how to pressure and get out of pressure, finding gaps in pressure, insane levels of mind games and I could go on and on. There’s so many layers of depths without relying on 50/50’s.

I don’t mind 50/50’s at all, and isn’t my point. My problem is the meta on pretty much every level being so reliant on them. And the problem is that as demonstrated in the older MK’s, you don’t have to design the games core gameplay to rely on that type of meta. That’s all I’m saying. Not saying anything other than that. I want it for these new players that have never experienced it. It’s so much fun to me and I want others to share my passion for it.

 

[GLoRToR]

Supporting Juggs on this one entirely. Fully agree.

 

[stokedAF]

I don’t know most of the tech jargon like a vortex concept. I’m a casual FG player but a diehard mk fan since childhood. I’m not looking up frame data and going to tournaments but I’m just as enthusiastic lol. I like the basic towers still.

So from my perspective as a less technical and more fun focused player, I don’t have a problem with the mix but I’m not really thinking about that anyway. Mk is a different FG to me because it has a block button, it’s much easier imo. It takes some strategy away like crossovers or whatever but it opens it up to more players which is what mk is all about imo. I don’t play on a high level but that’s my opinion.

 

[honeybooboo]

The meta must cater to the casual, that is why it is what it is

 

[Badboy Takuma]

See this is what I’m talking about. There’s a lot of players, the overwhelming majority, that never even played the classic MK’s on any sort of level other than super casually as a kid. I’d say a lot of players also never played MK9 on a competitive level either. You just described classic MK FG’s my man, lol. The only real 50/50’s in UMK3 for example are throws you can do with characters like Cyrax and Sheeva. Which they can throw loop you technically infinitely if you keep guessing wrong. Other than that, the meta is built around having solid fundamentals, good excecution, heavily focused on footsies and spacing, knowing how to pressure and get out of pressure, finding gaps in pressure, insane levels of mind games and I could go on and on. There’s so many layers of depths without relying on 50/50’s.

I don’t mind 50/50’s at all, and isn’t my point. My problem is the meta on pretty much every level being so reliant on them. And the problem is that as demonstrated in the older MK’s, you don’t have to design the games core gameplay to rely on that type of meta. That’s all I’m saying. Not saying anything other than that. I want it for these new players that have never experienced it. It’s so much fun to me and I want others to share my passion for it.

well, since you are talking about "modern fighting games" i assume that you are an oldschool player then?
therefore i would like to ask you in which classic fgc-fighting game did you competed?
i ask because you use fgc-terms like "footsies, spacing" 2high level" and such.
again, which legit classic tournament game did you play and please describe your journey as a former high-level player.


regarding umk3
for me, it is an extremely easy and straight forward fun-game (no matter how many shenanigans it has). its also EXTREMELY BROKEN, fact! the brokeness alone is the main reason why this game was NEVER an legit fgc game. nevertheless, you described it like you were talking about sf third strike or some other toptier game. that's really strange and at this point i doubt if you can be taken seriously in this kind of talk.
"Other than that, the meta is built around having solid fundamentals, good excecution, heavily focused on footsies and spacing, knowing how to pressure and get out of pressure, finding gaps in pressure, insane levels of mind games and I could go on and on"
i seriously dont know what you are talking about here, for real. execution? footsies? insane levels of mindgames? this must be somekind of joke? maybe you are exagerating on purpose? maybe you want people to believe that umk3 is a toptier oldschool game? it makes no sense cos technically umk3 is an broken trash game. this is coming from someone who have played this game for decades (being an mk fan)
i know everything about the game and obviously it is possible to became an strong player in this game like in any other games too. thats not the point though. point is i have never seen any real "footsies" nor the other things already mentioned in umk3.

i am not trolling or something. i am just trying to understand you.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

Were there no plus frames in mk3, no stagger? Can you give more examples since I have a hard time understanding what you're talking about.

 

[Wigy]

Limit the 50/50s.

No machine gun pokes

Limited low profiling

Not boring and slow AF clunky ass (i2)

 

[skater11]

It's also pretty funny that in MKX they decided to add the grab reset universally available for all characters. lol

 

[portent]

After reading this thread, I find it funny that people are complaining about a fighting game reliant on 50/50's like MKX and the Injustice series while comparing it to a game like UMK3, which is so reliant on one single tactic that is so overpowering that an entire community of players literally disappeared because of it.

 

[Lex Luthor II]

I want half MKX and half Injustice 2 mixed together. Thanks! <3

 

[SaSSolino]

I want half MKX and half Injustice 2 mixed together. Thanks! <3

This sounds pretty good, as long as they don't give Deadshot Sonya's 50/50s... oh.

 

[Sablicious]

Defence, defence... DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEFENCE!

If a fighting game has a weak defensive system, it will always boil down to which characters have the best, most reliable or hardest to escape 50-50's, and how easily the now genre infamous "death corners" can be abused (i.e., in 2-D fighters). SFV suffers from this problem, and it renders the game a yawn fest (...compounded by the many 'crutch' mechanics and overall casual nature of the game, suffice to say).

Soul Calibur VI, although a 3-D fighter, is a good case in point for what NOT to do, with respect to said aspect of fighting games: A series that was lauded for and, indeed, built upon its robust defensive ("guard impact") mechanics, took to watering it down in what's generally considered the worst SC game, 'V', and then proceeded to not fix it in 'VI' (only dumb it down, perhaps making it even worse), leaving the game all but dead a month after release and little more than a casuals' spam and mash fiesta for those who persist with it.

Anyone who has ever learnt martial arts in real life, knows that defence is the first form of offence, and it is this aspect of combat that is first taught to would-be practitioners. After all, if one cannot avoid an attack landing on oneself, all the fancy kicks and flips in the world mean nada... when you're already in a coma!

Also, for those who blow the predictable "it's a video game, not real life" rusty trombone -- fighting games are fantastical representations of real world marital arts and, as such, must adhere to certain principles of said real world combat. Up still has to be up, and down must be down--if a game is to avoid descend into the realm of the absurd and losing all connection to its source material.

Without a robust defensive system, a fighting game's longevity lies -- as the OP put it -- right up until the "meta" is revealed; then... Fin.