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MK11 Meta Hopes

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
You have to be careful with pressure-heavy metas too or you just end up with throw 50/50’s instead of high-low mixups. Just look at the latest Capcom Cup results and SFV’s “just take the throw” gameplay which resulted in a rushdown character beating the game’s only tournament viable GRAPPLER by literally throwing him at a 10:1 ratio. That shit gets just as stupid as getting opened up by double overhead into unseeable empty jump low into blahblahblah in DBFZ.

Watching SFIV at a high level was way more exciting with its footsies and spacing heavy meta. Today’s games are only more popular because of the rise of watching games in general, not because people enjoy these new gameplay ideologies more. I feel like a return to the type of gameplay design that made SFIV as big as it was even before the popularity explosion of video game streaming would be a wise and welcome move.
 
After reading this thread, I find it funny that people are complaining about a fighting game reliant on 50/50's like MKX and the Injustice series while comparing it to a game like UMK3, which is so reliant on one single tactic that is so overpowering that an entire community of players literally disappeared because of it.
well said man!
in addition to your argument and regarding umk3 in this topic:
you can compare such an old game like umk3 with a modern nrs game only when it comes to your personal taste, nothing wrong with it. even though that umk3 and lets say mkx have a little to nothing in common gameplaywise, you can still kind of compare them if you like one game more then the other, lul.
BUT, if you make a comparison between games, who are like at least 20 years apart, in a competitive manner using fgc gameplay-strategies as a comparison benchmark, then this should be heavily questioned
(actually it should not be taken seriously).
when umk3 came out 1995 and was popular and heavily played at the arcades (by me for instance) neither the word "footsies" nor the actual strategy behind that word, existed at that time just as an example.
 

portent

Apprentice
well said man!
in addition to your argument and regarding umk3 in this topic:
you can compare such an old game like umk3 with a modern nrs game only when it comes to your personal taste, nothing wrong with it. even though that umk3 and lets say mkx have a little to nothing in common gameplaywise, you can still kind of compare them if you like one game more then the other, lul.
BUT, if you make a comparison between games, who are like at least 20 years apart, in a competitive manner using fgc gameplay-strategies as a comparison benchmark, then this should be heavily questioned
(actually it should not be taken seriously).
when umk3 came out 1995 and was popular and heavily played at the arcades (by me for instance) neither the word "footsies" nor the actual strategy behind that word, existed at that time just as an example.
I never had the chance to play the game in the arcades, but I had it on 360 in Arcade Kollection. To be honest, the game looks incredibly boring when you watch it played at the highest levels. It's all jabbing and throwing. It definitely is not a spectator sport!

As far as I can tell from all the reading I've done about UMK3, the game breaks down to a single tactic called block jabbing. If you can't do it, you can't win, and if you can't defend it by using them you can't win. To me, that means at the highest levels of play, you're relying on a single tactic. UMK3 isn't defensive at all. The game is played at breakneck speed literally in your opponent's face at all times and the first person to mess up a block jab eats a potential 60% combo topped off with any chip damage they've accrued from blocking up to that point.

I'm having a hard time seeing how the OP can defend UMK3 and use MKX or Injustice as an example when they're clearly linked by the common thread of a single tactic breaking the games down at the highest levels of play.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
I agree about needing good defence in a game.

Soul Calibur VI, although a 3-D fighter, is a good case in point for what NOT to do, with respect to said aspect of fighting games: A series that was lauded for and, indeed, built upon its robust defensive ("guard impact") mechanics, took to watering it down in what's generally considered the worst SC game, 'V', and then proceeded to not fix it in 'VI' (only dumb it down, perhaps making it even worse), leaving the game all but dead a month after release and little more than a casuals' spam and mash fiesta for those who persist with it.
I don't know which SC6 you're playing.
*Looks at the community discords and just drops the mic*
 

Sablicious

Apprentice
Just look at the latest Capcom Cup results and SFV’s “just take the throw” gameplay which resulted in a rushdown character beating the game’s only tournament viable GRAPPLER by literally throwing him at a 10:1 ratio.
This does not surprise me in the slightest, as part of the reason I dropped SFV was because of the alluded to disgusting treatment of 'Gief in the game. I mean, if SnakEyez and ItabashiZangeif being forced to drop their main -- due to his wholly uncompetitive nature -- did not send the message to Crapcom, nothing will.

That said, the game's throw orgiastic gameplay is almost as cancerous as its 50-50's and "death corners". If I had a Vietnamese Dong (*actual currency -- Google it; no homo... not that there's anything wrong with that!) for every [legitimate] complaint my hapless versus buddy spewed at my Menat / Kolin throw abuse (I don't even play with throws in mind with such characters; it's just that the game is so heavily geared towards throw orientated exploitation, that not throwing is like give mercy, mid-fight), I could buy the SF license from Crapcom and make the MK vs. SF everyone has always dreamed of...!

The sad indictment of Jason and Bane being far, far better grappler character archetypes than what SF's Zangief has become, is another in a laundry list of reasons why the likes of NRS have taken the mantel from Crapcom.

Today’s games are only more popular because of the rise of watching games in general, not because people enjoy these new gameplay ideologies more.
Exactly. The irony being, the games have been watered-down in order to get these onlookers playing the games -- yet, instead of broadening the participant base, all this 'casualisation' has achieved is shallow, repetitive, predictable gameplay that is a yawn to witness.

The sobering reality that SFV will never have a SFIII Evo 2004 "full parry" hype moment -- no matter how many skill / health plateauing and 'artificial hype' mechanics are sidled into the game -- should not be lost on genre fans. This is the paradox of "accessibility" that developers (read: boardroom exe¢$) lacked the prescience to see coming...
---

I agree about needing good defence in a game.
I don't know which SC6 you're playing.
*Looks at the community discords and just drops the mic*
Nope -- no Discord. Just Steam / PC for the first few weeks of release... then bust.

Too much same-y gameplay, spamming, button-mashing and low attack exploitation; compounded by the fact that 95% of the scrubbers encountered were either one of the 'Zweihänders' or Mi-na. So, yeah... nah. Life's too short. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I never had the chance to play the game in the arcades, but I had it on 360 in Arcade Kollection. To be honest, the game looks incredibly boring when you watch it played at the highest levels. It's all jabbing and throwing. It definitely is not a spectator sport!

As far as I can tell from all the reading I've done about UMK3, the game breaks down to a single tactic called block jabbing. If you can't do it, you can't win, and if you can't defend it by using them you can't win. To me, that means at the highest levels of play, you're relying on a single tactic. UMK3 isn't defensive at all. The game is played at breakneck speed literally in your opponent's face at all times and the first person to mess up a block jab eats a potential 60% combo topped off with any chip damage they've accrued from blocking up to that point.

I'm having a hard time seeing how the OP can defend UMK3 and use MKX or Injustice as an example when they're clearly linked by the common thread of a single tactic breaking the games down at the highest levels of play.
It would be like trying to win in any game without utilizing the games best mechanic. You technically can beat everyone you play without using it, but you make it harder on yourself since the mechanic is so powerful. I’ve played many great players that rarely use it if at all that have beaten me clean.

At the highest levels no, it isn’t just that. There’s just not very many American players that have taken it to the next level. I can think of maybe 5 players, if that, that have.

Regardless, when I reference UMK3 I’m not referencing glitch jabs. I’m referencing pretty much everything BUT that.
 
I don’t think “you already lost at neutral” is a good argument to defend the 50/50 meta of MKX, especially before comboable armors and 50/50 were nerfed.

You win the neutral once and you either restand or knockdown the opponent and be plus enough to go for the 50/50. If your opponent guesses wrong then it’s another plus knockdown/restand into another 50/50. We saw that all the time with pre-nerf Raiden, Cassie, Alien, Erron, Dvorah, etc

If your opponent guesses the 50/50 right, they may have their turn back (may not in some cases). People need to rely on comboable armor to get out and force the 50/50 back. It’s just like a turn-based game, especially it only takes 2 combo to push everyone to the corner and it’s just going back and forth there.

I think NRS did a good job in terms of nerfing comboable armor, knockdown/restand and 50/50. Towards the end of MKX life, armor is to reset the neutral, and knockdown is not that plus to ensure 50/50. I believe NRS has learned their lesson and we can expect MK11 to be less 50/50 and rushdown focus. I hope they can make their game more diversed playstyle-wise, i want to see more decent grapplers, air mobility like Brainiac and maybe some good setup fighters.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Well, for starters, I definitely think abandoning a game during the very early parts would have you feel the same way every time because, typically, learning how to defend and play the game properly will leave most players pretty open to almost any kind of offense. Forcing a 50/50 is the best kind of offense you can do, and since that's a little bit easier to figure out, that will always dominate early on.

But almost any time I saw a game through to the very end, I would see that those scenarios would only happen after the mid-range game ended: a good dash, a good jump, out-spaced someone and so they overreached, low-profiled a string, etc. Obviously people could refine their offense so well that they can pretty much take any opening and turn it into a series of damaging guesses, but they also learn how to keep people out as well. An example is Goku Black being seen as a strong character in DBFZ until it became apparent that his teleport mixups weren't actually very good and he sorely lacked a way to crack his opponents opened. It took a little bit, but it eventually came to pass. Wesker was the same way in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3, where he was all over the place for a while before people learned how to defend against him and suddenly what was once seen as incredibly good turned out to be average.

I see everyone say "[insert game] is reliant on 50/50's," but I never really know what it means. Fighting games aren't a martial arts competition, where you land a throw or a poke and then immediately back off as an acknowledgement of a good landed strike. Everything is a means to an end, which is getting the knockdown and pressing your advantage, and there is nothing more advantageous than a simple yes/no guess. Older games may not have had overheads to help mix up traditional low options like sweep, but throws were also 10x as strong typically and the only option was to counter throw, which meant you had to stop blocking low. Being on point with a reversal or jumping away was crucial, but that wasn't easy either, as the window to input a reversal out of blockstun was typically very, very small. As offensive options developed and got stronger in later games, so did defensive options: throws became two-button tech, backdashes were added, alpha counters/block breakers, breakers, etc.

Making you guess between a low or an oh/throw has pretty much been the key to offense since the beginning of time, but the big difference is typically what your options are to defend. Sometimes it skews towards being easier to convert back to offense from a defensive position (USFIV, Injustice series) and sometimes it skews towards having few options but to make a hard read to get out (DBFZ, most 3D games, MK, SFV). But no matter what kind of game you're playing, those hardlined advantages only come out when one player has succeeded in gaining the upper hand on his opponent via the tiny interactions outside of those extremes we call the neutral game. I've yet to play a game where that part doesn't always come into play first, although I've certainly seen some where it happens extremely fast (MKX). The point is, a game being "reliant" on 50/50's is, to me, a misleading statement considering it is ultimately the goal and the best way to ensure victory, but that goal can't come without establishing a neutral game through good spacing or well-placed reads.
 

Metin

Ermac & Smoke Main
No chip damage
No need to use a bar to make your pressure safe
More elements on defense pls, not like just combo breaker or pressure breaker.
 

portent

Apprentice
I’m referencing pretty much everything BUT that.
If that's the case, then fair enough, because without that technique, the game actually looks fun. But I can never un-see what the game breaks down to, which is incredibly boring to watch. I hate saying that as someone who obviously doesn't fully understand the game at the highest levels, I just call it like I see it.

That said, I honestly hope to see a return to defensive gameplay in MK11. Injustice 2 has an element of it, moreso than MKX and Injustice 1, however, I've always felt that the last patch in MKX ruined the game. Many people felt the armored launchers needed to go, but that was actually a defensive tactic which rewarded patience and defensive gameplay. The last patch removed it, and any shred of defensive play MKX had.
 

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
Well, for starters, I definitely think abandoning a game during the very early parts would have you feel the same way every time because, typically, learning how to defend and play the game properly will leave most players pretty open to almost any kind of offense. Forcing a 50/50 is the best kind of offense you can do, and since that's a little bit easier to figure out, that will always dominate early on.

But almost any time I saw a game through to the very end, I would see that those scenarios would only happen after the mid-range game ended: a good dash, a good jump, out-spaced someone and so they overreached, low-profiled a string, etc. Obviously people could refine their offense so well that they can pretty much take any opening and turn it into a series of damaging guesses, but they also learn how to keep people out as well. An example is Goku Black being seen as a strong character in DBFZ until it became apparent that his teleport mixups weren't actually very good and he sorely lacked a way to crack his opponents opened. It took a little bit, but it eventually came to pass. Wesker was the same way in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3, where he was all over the place for a while before people learned how to defend against him and suddenly what was once seen as incredibly good turned out to be average.

I see everyone say "[insert game] is reliant on 50/50's," but I never really know what it means. Fighting games aren't a martial arts competition, where you land a throw or a poke and then immediately back off as an acknowledgement of a good landed strike. Everything is a means to an end, which is getting the knockdown and pressing your advantage, and there is nothing more advantageous than a simple yes/no guess. Older games may not have had overheads to help mix up traditional low options like sweep, but throws were also 10x as strong typically and the only option was to counter throw, which meant you had to stop blocking low. Being on point with a reversal or jumping away was crucial, but that wasn't easy either, as the window to input a reversal out of blockstun was typically very, very small. As offensive options developed and got stronger in later games, so did defensive options: throws became two-button tech, backdashes were added, alpha counters/block breakers, breakers, etc.

Making you guess between a low or an oh/throw has pretty much been the key to offense since the beginning of time, but the big difference is typically what your options are to defend. Sometimes it skews towards being easier to convert back to offense from a defensive position (USFIV, Injustice series) and sometimes it skews towards having few options but to make a hard read to get out (DBFZ, most 3D games, MK, SFV). But no matter what kind of game you're playing, those hardlined advantages only come out when one player has succeeded in gaining the upper hand on his opponent via the tiny interactions outside of those extremes we call the neutral game. I've yet to play a game where that part doesn't always come into play first, although I've certainly seen some where it happens extremely fast (MKX). The point is, a game being "reliant" on 50/50's is, to me, a misleading statement considering it is ultimately the goal and the best way to ensure victory, but that goal can't come without establishing a neutral game through good spacing or well-placed reads.
Honestly I think this is all that needs to be said. 50/50s have virtually always and will always exist as guessing is a fundamental part of fighters. Everything is a guess, a read really and truly is still a guess, just an educated one.

I feel the thing op is forgetting is that guessing is prevalent in offense and defense, extremely so even. Pressure as a whole is a guess, since you have to guess when to take your turn back and when that opportunity will come. From the MK meta video I watched on Ketchup's channel recently regarding UMK3 even escaping out of the block pressure was a guess. I'll rewatch the video just to fact check since obviously i don't know how the high level meta worked in these games personally, but from what I understand it was a mixup on when to escape it.
 

Darth-Nero

Come Thunder! Come Lightning!
He's not wrong, mkx coin flips meta got really old really fast. After a while you feel that the experience is very repetitive and boring. mk9 never had that problem, the meta was so diverse and the footsies was hella fun to play. I still remember when my friend came over to my place and we spent the next 3 days doing nothing but eat, sleep and mk9 non stop. We never had that in mkx, it was only just 2-3 hours max at a time.
 

Rizz091

Mortal
Honestly I think this is all that needs to be said. 50/50s have virtually always and will always exist as guessing is a fundamental part of fighters. Everything is a guess, a read really and truly is still a guess, just an educated one.

I feel the thing op is forgetting is that guessing is prevalent in offense and defense, extremely so even. Pressure as a whole is a guess, since you have to guess when to take your turn back and when that opportunity will come. From the MK meta video I watched on Ketchup's channel recently regarding UMK3 even escaping out of the block pressure was a guess. I'll rewatch the video just to fact check since obviously i don't know how the high level meta worked in these games personally, but from what I understand it was a mixup on when to escape it.
Yes every game has guessing, but when you have to guess between two options that lead to the same damage, you no longer weigh risk and reward, it's just a guess. That is extremely uninteresting.

Good guessing is where you have high risk high reward options, and low risk low reward options. Effective frame trapping that leads to needing to condition your opponent to do certain things and then eventually open themselves up to the big damage. Not just flip a coin to see if you take 40% into the same situation again or not.
 

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
Yes every game has guessing, but when you have to guess between two options that lead to the same damage, you no longer weigh risk and reward, it's just a guess. That is extremely uninteresting.

Good guessing is where you have high risk high reward options, and low risk low reward options. Effective frame trapping that leads to needing to condition your opponent to do certain things and then eventually open themselves up to the big damage. Not just flip a coin to see if you take 40% into the same situation again or not.
I don't know what your point is, I'm not saying its interesting or good guessing.
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
I would like to see some cosmetic stuff as well.....

Tournament Mode
I would like to see a Torny Mode designed for event holders, for locals and Majors. So when it is turned on...
  1. Have the game options inaccessible. So people can not turn off random skins, fuck with the gamma or lower / raise the bars, change the sound mixing. The best option would be to have TournyMode settings save and load automatically when you turn it on. So even if the console reboots you can just get back to the exact setup needed for a good stream.
  2. Have an option to lockout user input during Fatalities, Brutalities and X-Rays. As a stream-monster nothing sucks more for the viewer than skipping these cool parts of the game. Yes, players need attention, but viewers are also important.
  3. Have an option to only allow Fatalities on final round of the set. To speed things up. (so set options would be in Tourny Mode settings)
  4. Have random skins. Whatever the system we get, we can assume it will have gear like in Injustice so they have many looks, and maybe "ability matching" skins like Superman / Bizzaro .. so we might get Sub-Zero / Frost... anyway... have a setting inTorny Mode that sets true random appearance including any "full skins" that probably come with there own voice acting and all that jaz.
Online Stuff
  • I think it would be awesome to have a mode in online play that is a proper ladder system. Like an automated event. People sign in and sign up and have like a week or some time period to play each round... you get a message in game when a player in your bracket you need to play is online.. Like a normal event it whittles down to a winner that gets some kind of game award.
  • A bracket system, like King of the Hill.. a user can set p[layer count.. invite his friends and hang out. Be great for youtubers and small online events and exhibitions.
  • Ranked should be Bo3.
  • There should be a penalty for disconnecting to stop cheats. The person that pulls out should be docked a meaningful amount of ladder points. This will hit the occasional legitimate DC.. but I still think it would be better than all those quits.
 

ShaolinGunFu

Warrior
Its awesome to acknowledge braindead/cheap functions in games that reduce the skillgap

The problem is when people mention old school MK as an example of a fair game, or imply the mixups are the braindead part. Modern MK has oh/lw 50/50s, UMK3 has run jabs/throws and low/low crush mids, there are many times where the opponent makes a choice, and you have to anticipate what the appropriate response should be without reacting live to visual cues. Why is it worse to have to read mixup patterns than to have to deal with pressure like mkxl liu kang/kung lao mk9 kabal etc? (not only based on the opponent, if I know every scorpion goes for X setup, and you know that I probably know that, you can do a setup in response to that, etc)

we need mixups to be complicated, oh/lw/throw is okay if it doesnt lead to much but if you are going to get a 50% combo into restand, than make it so that its well earned
 

Rizz091

Mortal
I don't know what your point is, I'm not saying its interesting or good guessing.
Perhaps I misunderstood? I thought the point you were making was all games have guessing therefore 50 50s are perfectly fine. My response was you can have more interesting forms of guess work that don't involve 50 50s.

Sorry if I'm misrepresenting you.
 

aj1701

Champion
See this is what I’m talking about. There’s a lot of players, the overwhelming majority, that never even played the classic MK’s on any sort of level other than super casually as a kid. I’d say a lot of players also never played MK9 on a competitive level either. You just described classic MK FG’s my man, lol. The only real 50/50’s in UMK3 for example are throws you can do with characters like Cyrax and Sheeva. Which they can throw loop you technically infinitely if you keep guessing wrong. Other than that, the meta is built around having solid fundamentals, good excecution, heavily focused on footsies and spacing, knowing how to pressure and get out of pressure, finding gaps in pressure, insane levels of mind games and I could go on and on. There’s so many layers of depths without relying on 50/50’s.

I don’t mind 50/50’s at all, and isn’t my point. My problem is the meta on pretty much every level being so reliant on them. And the problem is that as demonstrated in the older MK’s, you don’t have to design the games core gameplay to rely on that type of meta. That’s all I’m saying. Not saying anything other than that. I want it for these new players that have never experienced it. It’s so much fun to me and I want others to share my passion for it.
When I play MK2, I feel like its more of a chess game then anything else. I know you're an UMK3 guy, but I think that's basically what you're getting at, right?